Your turn is always second.

[westernrover]

I recently started another thread where I contrasted what might be considered "most probable" defensive use of gun situations with what many regard as improbable fantasy scenarios. I didn't mean having to fight off six terrorists with plate carriers and fully-automatic rifles. Instead, I imagined having a cluster of misfortunes befall me all at once because I think that violence accompanies violence and it doesn't seem to be an absurd outlier that should I have to fight, I could be fighting with serious injuries, disabled limbs, having lost a firearm or having one become disabled, and being in disadvantageous positions, all at the same time.

I started EDC in 2018 with a j-frame. I had several for a couple years. Then I switched later in 2019 to a carrying a full-size L-frame with a red-dot optic. I've accumulated considerable training with it, and it's proven to be a gun that perfectly compliments my modest skill. I've demonstrated to myself that big, heavy revolvers with long barrels and precision sights are awesome. I love the way it can put double-action shots through the same ragged hole at 20 yards. I remember one time I was training my boy on the deer rifle, and we had a 3x5 index card at 100 yards. I said, "let me see if I can hit it with my revolver." I squeezed off a shot in double-action, and my son who was looking through the spotting scope said, "right in the middle." I can't say I always shoot like that, but if I don't, it's not the gun's fault. I like this gun enough I sold all my other handguns save for a couple single-actions that aren't for carry. I don't believe a few flattering anecdotes about my marksmanship perpare me for defensive use of lethal force, so I've also taken a few classes. I try to take at least one multi-day class every year. I travel around to the best schools I can find. I've taken classes in gun handling, shooting, tactics, and the legal issues. I haven't been at this that long, so I'm not under any delusion about the skills I possess, but I've certainly spent more on training than I have on handguns. In all that time, my revolver has proven to be more than a match for what others were training with.

I've decided that more of a good thing must be better and my next revolver should be an 8" Dan Wesson SuperMag in .357. I think I could figure out a way to carry it. One thing that bugs me is I don't think I could carry two. Ok, honestly, my L-frame is 45 ounces loaded and while I do carry it everyday, it is heavy and it demands a cover garment, at least an untucked shirt. I think it would be awesome to deal 357 Maximums from a 4 1/2-pound gun. You see, this is how I imagine myself in a defensive use of lethal-force:

No, it's not wielding the most powerful handgun in the world that can blow your head clean-off. The reason I carry a 45-ounce gun now and the reason I'd like to carry a 72-ounce gun in 357 and not 44 or 445 is not for the super power, but for the size and weight. The thing about Harry here is not his gun, but his position and stance. It's how I might imagine myself fighting off an attacker. It looks like my training. Ok, there was that one time in a phone booth, and prone inside a 55-gallon drum. I've trained movement and "run and gun" type tactics too, and around vehicles, but that stuff tends to come with guys that dress like spec-ops do tactical operator stuff -- provide your own picture here.

In my other thread, one respondent replied:

Once you've already decided that you are going to prepare, now you're only deciding what you want to prepare for.

How about this one:



This is a screen-grab from a video that has enough information to look it up. The robbers leave without shooting anyone, but here is what I imagine could have happened instead: What if I was the guy in the black shirt on the ground. I had been ambushed by the two gun-men (the second one is assaulting a victim that is blurred-out behind the counter) and didn't have a "turn" to draw. Now imagine that the attacker in red has shot me in the groin and the other man on the ground also. I'm bleeding and lying in a pool of urine from a perforated bladder. I can still survive, but I have to draw my weapon and stop the man in red while he has his back turned on me, and then I have to fight the attacker in blue on the other side of the counter and stop him before he kills me. Otherwise they will rob the cash register and shoot me again on their way out.

I know there's hotdogs right there, but I don't get to munch on one while I blow these guys away. I've got to try to draw from the waist when my gun is wet with blood and urine. If I hit the red guy with three shots, I would have had only three left for the blue guy. When my shots hit them, there's no springboard that's going to launch them into the beer cooler. I won't have time to reload before engaging both. You thought this was another revolver vs automatic thread but you're wrong. Right before this happened, I swore off my Fudd ways and packed a Glock 17. The thing is, the shot I took through my lower back, was stopped by the Glock's slide on the other side. It's dented and won't function.

 

[Riomouse911]

One can “what if” ccw scenarios until the sun burns out.

I try not to get buried neck-deep in minutiae. When folks do, I firmly believe far too many people become paralyzed by analysis and can’t respond quickly and decisively when it’s time to do something. (Or when it isn’t the time, they charge out of left field and do something to needlessly get themselves hurt or killed.)

All one can honestly do is be as confident, competent and comfortable with their ccw firearm as possible. Train realistically, carry realistically and live realistically (aka: do your best to be aware of your self, your situations and your surroundings.) There is no perfect answer to every scenario, as no one has a crystal ball to see whats coming and formulate a response in advance. And, in reality things rarely ever go as planned anyway, so always expect to be flexible and think on the fly.

Stay safe.

 

[JohnKSa]

In my other thread, one respondent replied:

That comment was specifically about separating the choice of WHETHER to carry from the choice of WHAT to carry. Answering the question of whether to carry is about the probability of needing it and the risk of not having it when you need it. The second question doesn't deal with those things, it deals with what you want to prepare for. A lot of people try to mix the two questions together and answer them both at once, or to answer the second based on the information that relates to the first or vice-versa. The point was that it's not productive to do that.

It wasn't intended to endorse the idea that it's necessary to construct highly detailed scenarios and work through them step-by-step to decide what to carry.

...my next revolver should be an 8" Dan Wesson SuperMag in .357. I think I could figure out a way to carry it....

If you do, be sure to do a lot of training and testing to make sure that you can carry/conceal effectively and also draw it with a reasonable measure of alacrity. When barrels get long, it tends to limit effective carry methods and to slow down the draw considerably.

...here is what I imagine could have happened ...
...
... won't function.

It's worthwhile to do some thinking about basic scenarios, but you don't want to get down into the weeds too far. Planning ahead of time isn't so much about constructing intricately designed screenplays, it's more about dealing with the basics. How would I operate my gun with one hand, if injured? How would I draw and fire from various positions? What do I do if my firearm won't function? How would I deal with multiple attackers? Instead of working on the details of the available concessions on the scene or the specifics of injuries one might encounter, it's more productive to spend the time thinking about more general possibilities and then actually training to deal with them with your chosen carry gun and chosen carry method.

 

[westernrover]

If you do, be sure to do a lot of training and testing to make sure that you can carry/conceal effectively and also draw it with a reasonable measure of alacrity. When barrels get long, it tends to limit effective carry methods and to slow down the draw considerably.

I was kidding. It would be awesome. Probably not. I mean it wouldn't just be ridiculous to carry that everyday, but it would only really be awesome if my gunfight happened when I had my full strength, plenty of room to draw and extend my gun out with a two-handed grip and my targets were expecting to engage me from 30 to 50 yards with impunity. In any other circumstances, it would probably suck. But practice for that ideal gunfight would be a blast.

It's worthwhile to do some thinking about basic scenarios, but you don't want to get down into the weeds too far. Planning ahead of time isn't so much about constructing intricately designed screenplays, it's more about dealing with the basics. How would I operate my gun with one hand, if injured? How would I draw and fire from various positions? What do I do if my firearm won't function? How would I deal with multiple attackers? Instead of working on the details of the available concessions on the scene or the specifics of injuries one might encounter, it's more productive to spend the time thinking about more general possibilities and then actually training to deal with them with your chosen carry gun and chosen carry method.

I don't intend to day dream my way through a dozen scenarios like the one I described. My point is that I tend to foresee myself like that picture of Harry -- whole, able, upright, and intent on dealing justice to the wicked; not wallowing in my bodily fluids on the ground with screaming in my ears, needing to vomit and fight at the same time. I do the one-hand, weakside, non-linear malfunction clearance drills, but having a basic skill trained in a sterile environment doesn't prepare a person mentally. We do those things, those drills, and I'm not suggesting we do them any differently or that we need elaborate fantasies in our training. Rather I'm wary that combat doesn't look like that. If I make a choice of "what to carry" based only on what's comfortable and easy to carry or I make that choice based on what works well in range exercises and IDPA matches, I haven't considered what actually works well when my turn is always second.

 

[stonebuster]

I assume my turn will always will be second because predators have the element of surprise going for them. Situational awareness & street smarts may allow you the possibility to "see it coming." It saved my butt a couple times in my younger days. My goal is survival for myself(and or loved ones) if attacked which includes flight, taking shelter or fight if need be. I'm not John Wyck or Dirty Harry and "a man's got to know his limitations."

 

[CDW4ME]

As I said in the other thread; nah, I'll state it a different way in this one.

Anticipated threat, risk assessment, threat assessment and "good area" are terms usually used to justify/rationalize carrying something less than what would be carried if going to an area of greater perceived threat. An example of that is someone carrying a snub for a quick trip to the store and/or in a "good area" but carrying a Glock 19 if going to _____ where they perceive greater risk. The greater the chances they think they might have to defend themself increases their willingness to carry / "dress around" the handgun they would prefer to defend themself with.

That ^ is not how I do it; I do not look for reasons to carry something less.
I am not a slave to unreqired shirt tucking and concealing a Glock 19 size gun is easy in summer attire.
What would I rather defend myself with a snub or Glock 19? The Glock 19 (better trigger, sights, quicker follow up shots) anywhere and everywhere.
Try to carry a handgun you would want to defend yourself with anywhere, everywhere. (For bad/good area people this means try to carry the "bad" area gun everywhere)

 

[Rexster]

Well. Hmm. Some pre-caffeinated thoughts:

I believe that it is important to train the mind to think conceptually, rather than to “make movies” of specific situations, with the hope hope of retrieving that specific mental .mov file, to use in a specific emergency. It is useful to watch videos of real incidents, and to train in scenarios, but we must never assume that our personal emergency will match anything we have seen or rehearsed.

I believe that it is important to train to continuously assess, when there is no emergency, when a potential emergency is perceived, while doing one’s best to mitigate the emergency before it happens, and while the emergency is in progress.

A barrel that is too long is going to slow my draw. In my personal case, with a relatively short torso, relatively long monkey arms, a bit of scoliosis which tilts me toward my usual carry position, and an aging weapon-side shoulder that is going gimp, it is not a good idea for my “primary” weapon, worn at waist level, to have a long barrel. A snubby revolver is an example of an excellent defensive weapon.

A barrel that is too short results in a weapon what balances too much toward the grip, which diminishes my ability to “feel” the orientation of the weapon’s muzzle direction. A snubby revolver, for example, is a terrible defensive weapon.

Yes, I did say that a snubby revolver is an excellent defensive weapon, and that a snubby revolver is a terrible defensive weapon. Context is everything.

Balance. Some weapons are a balance of competing desirable features. A 3” medium-frame revolver, for example, can offer the realistically equivalent draw speed of a snub-gun, while having some amount of forward balance, to enable “feeling” the orientation of the muzzle. A somewhat-compact auto can fill this same category.

Well, out of time to type. Garbage must be taken to the curb. Dogs must be walked. An errand must be run. I am already typing too much, for one post.

 

[Armored farmer]

we must never assume that our personal emergency will match anything we have seen or rehearsed.

Well said.

 

[buck460XVR]

Now imagine that the attacker in red has shot me in the groin and the other man on the ground also. I'm bleeding and lying in a pool of urine from a perforated bladder. I can still survive, but I have to draw my weapon and stop the man in red while he has his back turned on me, and then I have to fight the attacker in blue on the other side of the counter and stop him before he kills me. Otherwise they will rob the cash register and shoot me again on their way out.

I know there's hotdogs right there, but I don't get to munch on one while I blow these guys away. I've got to try to draw from the waist when my gun is wet with blood and urine. If I hit the red guy with three shots, I would have had only three left for the blue guy. When my shots hit them, there's no springboard that's going to launch them into the beer cooler. I won't have time to reload before engaging both. You thought this was another revolver vs automatic thread but you're wrong. Right before this happened, I swore off my Fudd ways and packed a Glock 17. The thing is, the shot I took through my lower back, was stopped by the Glock's slide on the other side. It's dented and won't function.

This is the kind of fantasy I see regularly on these types of forums.

You see, this is how I imagine myself in a defensive use of lethal-force:

^^^ and this just verifies my first statement.

If the robber shot you, he did it so there would be no witnesses. He ain't gonna let you lie there long enough to take him and his buddy down. He is going to walk directly to you and blow your brains out. Hard to believe being wounded as much as you say, you would have the clear thinking and the physical capabilities to hit the first guy with any rounds, much less all three and still have the capability to take down the other. The better fantasy is to have been more observant and not let this scenario escalate to this point. Noticing the 2 BGs right away, taking cover and drawing your weapon before you are mortally wounded, is the only positive outcome for you in this fantasy.

 

[BreechFace]

Look, I like watching self-defense videos and try to glean some wisdom from them, but in a world as big and complex as we live in; I don't for a minute think I can put myself in that scenario and expect to gain any insight into a future event that may or may not happen to myself. Too many variables, from location, mindset of perpetrator(s), bystanders, my mental state, audio/visual stress response, responding officers, what type of weapons are involved, fight or flight decisions, injuries and on and on.

Be smart about when and were one travels, bad areas, gas stations at night, dark parking lots
Situational awareness, know the entrances and exits, park under lights, no back to doorways
Carry the largest gun that one can be proficient with and will actually carry
Practice draw strokes, clearing cover garment, point shooting
Practice with off hand, one hand, malfunction drills

I don't know about all that how I look nonsense and whether I look like dirty harry or a spec ops operator. I do know I doubt I'll look like either when fighting for my family or my own life.

But nonetheless training and repetition is muscle memory in the bank; and that is effort well spent when the adrenaline dump occurs, one's face is flush and pounding and clarity of thought is elusive. And in times like this one needs to have their brain engaged in assessing the situation, making good sound judgement calls and muscle memory can take care of what needs to be done on the firearm front.

 

[westernrover]

As I said in the other thread; nah, I'll state it a different way in this one.

Anticipated threat, risk assessment, threat assessment and "good area" are terms usually used to justify/rationalize carrying something less than what would be carried if going to an area of greater perceived threat. An example of that is someone carrying a snub for a quick trip to the store and/or in a "good area" but carrying a Glock 19 if going to _____ where they perceive greater risk. The greater the chances they think they might have to defend themself increases their willingness to carry / "dress around" the handgun they would prefer to defend themself with.

That ^ is not how I do it; I do not look for reasons to carry something less.
I am not a slave to unreqired shirt tucking and concealing a Glock 19 size gun is easy in summer attire.
What would I rather defend myself with a snub or Glock 19? The Glock 19 (better trigger, sights, quicker follow up shots) anywhere and everywhere.
Try to carry a handgun you would want to defend yourself with anywhere, everywhere. (For bad/good area people this means try to carry the "bad" area gun everywhere)

Why only one?
If you're going into a "bad" area, wouldn't you take more than one?

 

[Charlie98]

but we must never assume that our personal emergency will match anything we have seen or rehearsed.

Amen.

People get carried away trying to break down defensive events and what they would do. Further, many people waste time on the minutae of a defensive weapon... expanding HP ammo, mag capacity, barrel length, cartridge... all of that... instead of training with their weapon... realistically training with their weapon. Riomouse covered that...

All one can honestly do is be as confident, competent and comfortable with their ccw firearm as possible. Train realistically, carry realistically and live realistically (aka: do your best to be aware of your self, your situations and your surroundings.)

I've done enough defensive and stress training to know that most people don't really know how they will react at the Moment of Truth. I've seen people do crazy things when under pressure... some things they vehemently deny, until the video review shows them what they did... and that's no lie.

 

[westernrover]

This is the kind of fantasy I see regularly on these types of forums.


^^^ and this just verifies my first statement.

If the robber shot you, he did it so there would be no witnesses. He ain't gonna let you lie there long enough to take him and his buddy down. He is going to walk directly to you and blow your brains out. Hard to believe being wounded as much as you say, you would have the clear thinking and the physical capabilities to hit the first guy with any rounds, much less all three and still have the capability to take down the other. The better fantasy is to have been more observant and not let this scenario escalate to this point. Noticing the 2 BGs right away, taking cover and drawing your weapon before you are mortally wounded, is the only positive outcome for you in this fantasy.

Watch the video. See if you think they could have seen it coming. And there is no fantasy needed. When they're on the ground, and the robber's back is turned, should they have counter-attacked or just lie there in compliance and hope the robbers don't decide to shoot them to eliminate witnesses or just "because" ?

 

[Riomouse911]

Amen.

People get carried away trying to break down defensive events and what they would do. Further, many people waste time on the minutae of a defensive weapon... expanding HP ammo, mag capacity, barrel length, cartridge... all of that... instead of training with their weapon... realistically training with their weapon. Riomouse covered that...



I've done enough defensive and stress training to know that most people don't really know how they will react at the Moment of Truth. I've seen people do crazy things when under pressure... some things they vehemently deny, until the video review shows them what they did... and that's no lie.

True that.

Good situational awareness is the best thing one can do to give yourself a good opportunity to avoid an issue (best), or react well to what is happening and hopefully get out of harms way.

This goes for stopping at the mini-mart for a morning cup of coffee, pulling into your driveway after work, to driving on I-80 and watching traffic both in the mirror and 10, 50 and 100 yards ahead of you. Seeing what folks (or cars) are there, what they are (or aren’t) doing, and where you can move out of harms way, is the ticket to best avoid stuff before it happens.

Anyone being caught totally by surprise puts them immediately behind the 8-ball and at a massive disadvantage. This is when the crazy-panic genes take over and people do off the wall stuff, or completely stiffen up like a mannequin in fright.

Lessening these probabilities puts a few more odds in your favor for avoidance. Or, if its going to go down anyway, a good reaction and a successful outcome.

Stay safe.

 

[JohnKSa]

My point is that I tend to foresee myself like that picture of Harry -- whole, able, upright, and intent on dealing justice to the wicked; not wallowing in my bodily fluids on the ground with screaming in my ears, needing to vomit and fight at the same time.

That's a good point. The scenario we will be served up will be the one reality plans for us, it very likely won't look like anything like a scene from our favorite action move with us cast as the hero. I think a lot of people have a very hard time dealing with reality--they don't want to think about the fact that they may be fighting injured or dealing with more than one attacker, or that they might not be able to get to their staged self-defense firearm, or that they might miss more than they hit in a real gunfight vs. shooting while standing still at a stationary paper target.

 

[Charlie98]

I think a lot of people have a very hard time dealing with reality

Yes...

 

[fastbolt]

Scenes in TV shows and movies are scripted for entertainment, and carefully choreographed to happen as a director wishes. Doesn't mean they may have anything to do with reality.

Back when I was working on our firearms training unit (or when I was a FTO) we'd often discuss the next qual scenarios, or considering whether some training class needed to be updated, and we asked simple questions of ourselves. What incidents had happened to our people, or at other agencies, which required some change in assessing existing skills of our people in quals? How could training be revised to better address problems and threats observed in recent incidents, and provide our people with some direction in applying existing skills to new situations? How could we introduce some new skills, and incorporate them into existing skillsets and tactics? Were any of the tactics and techniques we taught, and assessed in quals, becoming counterproductive to enhancing officer safety and surviving deadly force entounters? We any gear changes sufficiently addressed in both qual scenarios and training? Those sort of common questions ....

As time passed, LE realized that more training needed to be introduced for off-duty situsations and incidents, if only because gear carried off-duty might vary from that available while on-duty, and being readily identifiable to uniform AND plainclothes cops might mean the difference between surviving and becoming a preventable casuality in a blue-on-blue tragedy. (Yes, before someone asks, being caught up in some incident while off-duty and not inflicting a blue-on-blue casuality on another cop is also critical. It's not impossible for off-duty cops from different agencies - or divisions within a large agency - who may not know each other, to end up being at the same chaotic incident while off-duty.)

For the average private person, I suspect this is an area of thought where it's important to remember the difference between a Bare Fear and a Reasonable Fear when thinking about preparation, receiving training, etc.

 

[CDW4ME]

As I said in the other thread; nah, I'll state it a different way in this one.

Anticipated threat, risk assessment, threat assessment and "good area" are terms usually used to justify/rationalize carrying something less than what would be carried if going to an area of greater perceived threat. An example of that is someone carrying a snub for a quick trip to the store and/or in a "good area" but carrying a Glock 19 if going to _____ where they perceive greater risk. The greater the chances they think they might have to defend themself increases their willingness to carry / "dress around" the handgun they would prefer to defend themself with.

That ^ is not how I do it; I do not look for reasons to carry something less.
I am not a slave to unreqired shirt tucking and concealing a Glock 19 size gun is easy in summer attire.
What would I rather defend myself with a snub or Glock 19? The Glock 19 (better trigger, sights, quicker follow up shots) anywhere and everywhere.
Try to carry a handgun you would want to defend yourself with anywhere, everywhere. (For bad/good area people this means try to carry the "bad" area gun everywhere)

Why only one?
If you're going into a "bad" area, wouldn't you take more than one?

I live in a "good area".
My typical attire is cargo shorts and a shirt; a Glock 19 size pistol is easily concealed AIWB (+spare mag) and I've got a Kahr PM9 in my weak hand front pocket.
I didn't mention the 2nd pistol because many people balk at the idea of carrying a Glock 19 size pistol everywhere; saying carry a 2nd in a "good area" is mostly futile.
My "good area" everyday carry is deemed sufficient for areas of greater anticipated threat "bad area" so I don't have to change anything when I go to Wal-Mart.

Additional elaboration:
The 2nd gun in pocket is about options. It offers the option to put my hand on it without revealing I'm carrying and/or quick access with weak hand if my dominant hand were unavailable or injured; those options are potentially useful regardless of whether I'm standing in a nice spot, or not.
I've had concealed carry for 30 years and my carry has evolved over time.

 

[The Night Rider]

I was at work one night. I had literally been there less than 10 minutes. My relief had just left and I was closing the front gate.

A crackhead walked up to the gate, I couldn't just randomly draw on him for walking down the street, and when he got about four feet away from me he pulled out a knife.

I kind of had to think on my feet, I looked at the guy and I said "That is a nice looking knife, can I see that? " he handed it to me.

I was standing in line at a 7-Eleven one afternoon, waiting on a gas receipt for the company car.

A crackhead walked in and I think he started talking smack to somebody and for some reason they pointed me out. I was in uniform but I wasn't doing security for 7-Eleven. Next thing I know crack boy is heading my direction and screaming that he doesn't need no damn security guards in his 7-Eleven. There were probably 10 or 15 people standing behind him, so there's your safe backstop. A couple of them were actually laughing because they thought there was going to be a fight.

I pulled out my OC and started shaking it up and he kind of walked away.

That's how it happens in the real World.

 

[doubleh]

I think that most everyone that has never faced a life threatening situation has any idea how they will react. I once had the much less than less enjoyable task of cutting a man out of being hung up in a piece of equipment. It was a cutting torch or knife to get him out. Foremen, deputy sheriffs, and EMTs all went and sat in their vehicles saying they couldn't stand to watch. All the help I had was a summer hire college kid and the man's son and neither had any idea how to to do anything except what I told them while making decisions on the fly but neither flinched in the least. We got him out without burning him up thanks to a lot of shop towels and water cans and only then did the first responders get out of their vehicles. This incident left me with lot less confidence in police and EMTs. They are good at what they are trained to do (usually) but thinking outside their box hobbles some of them.

This incident was not life threatening unless shock played a part which it certainly could have as he was an older person and in a great deal of pain. I learned a lot a lot about human nature that afternoon, A kid that everyone except me considered to be a wimp wasn't and did what older and more experienced wouldn't. Until you face it you don't really know how you will react. Of course training will give you an advantage but until confronted you don't really know what your reaction will be.

 

[Kleanbore]

Scenes in TV shows and movies are scripted for entertainment, and carefully choreographed to happen as a director wishes. Doesn't mean they may have anything to do with reality.

They are also slowed considerably, so the audience does not miss anything.

 

[Riomouse911]

They are also slowed considerably, so the audience does not miss anything.

And they don’t film with tunnel vision or audio selectivity, and it is focused on one thing and not taking into account the surroundings, and the viewer isn’t in any danger, and the lighting allows things to be seen, and…

Hollywood is Hollywood.

Stay safe.

 

[Tallball]

I'm not automatically safer if I carry a bigger pistol and more bullets.

Some people seem to believe they are.

 

[hso]

Imagination is a wonderful thing when tempered with training and experience and wisdom...mostly wisdom.

 

[Robert]

You can what if something to death. But you can never plan for everything that might happen. Plan for the most likely occurrences and you will be well covered. Training, not only in shooting, but situational awareness, is paramount to being prepared. TV and movies are not a good basis for anything. Get real training. The best defense you have is seeing a bad situation developing early and having the ability to edit the area.