Losing Faith in the 1911. Help

It seems with 1911s you get either:

1. They suck and are unreliable.
2. They are 100% reliable all the time every time.

Pretty much polar opposites.

I own 3 45ACP pistols (2 Ruger P90s, and a P97). The 2 P90s are tanks that eat any ammo I feed them, and they didn't require a "break-in" period.

I recently got a P97 and have yet to shoot it. The P97 is a 2001 model, but I do expect it to function just as well as the P90s.

Fisherman12, stchmam, et al,

So you expect a perfect product built by imperfect humans?

Pause for a minute and think about it. Even The Holy Bible warns about putting too much trust in man.

The only 1911 I have shot *a lot* is my Wife's Colt Officers and according to things I have read about the 'Net they are supposed to be finicky or substandard in one way or the other but between my Wife and I we have put quite a few rounds thru that completely stock gun and I just don't ever remember it missing a beat.

So the intermittent problems and "some of them shoot and some of them don't" problems have started in the last decade or so?

Tomorrow is range day and I have not shot our 1911 for quite a while. Gotta take it out now and run 150 rounds thru her just to remember.

VooDoo

It isn't a myth. 1911's of yester-year were not the tight tolerance playthings of today, and ball was the only thing they had - THAT's why 500 - 1,000 round break-in's were not necessary.

One final comment - with the opinions and experiences of all those on either side - the truth lies somewhere in the middle. 1911's aren't bad guns at all, but they sure as hell aren't the gold standard some make them out to be.

It isn't a myth. 1911's of yester-year were not the tight tolerance playthings of today, and ball was the only thing they had

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It is a myth. I have in my possession a 1925 production Colt commercial Government Model that is quite well-fitted. It's still in excellent condition because it wasn't fired very much. When the rails are dry, I can discern just a tiny bit of play if I pull hard. With a drop of oil, that disappears.

And while all they had was ball, it doesn't mean that that's all they'll run with. I have proof of that with several old pistols...including a 1913 production Colt...that run just fine with Winchester Ranger...Winchester white box hollowpoints...and Golden Sabers. They also eat my cast 200-grain SWCs with nary a hiccup. The guns are Colt (4) Remington Rand(2) Union Switch(2) Ithaca(1) and none of them have had any more tuning than setting extractor tension.

And none of these pistols rattle like a bucket of marbles.

The problem is that so few people these days have ever handled an original USGI pistol that wasn't worn out or thrown together from a parts bin on a gun show table.

Finally...

Tightly fitted and reliable aren't mutually exclusive.
In fact, a seriously loose pistol is more likely to fail than one that's tight because all those wide clearances let more dust and dirt in.

Buy good magazines. The ones that come with the guns are generally not that good.

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So true. Both my Kimber's magazines had the followers put in wonky and wouldn't even load magazine, let alone feed them. Well, actually I never tried em, just tossed them in the old magazine bin and left them. I like CMC and Wilson for all my 1911's.

And, yes, all mine feed hollow points as reliably as FMJ.

Dang, these 1911 threads make me want to dig out my carry rig for my Kimber. Too bad I just moved and don't know where all my 1911 mags are... yet. Guess the Glock will have to do for now.

I will start by saying that I am a 1911 enthusiast.

But not a fanboy or an apologist, because I do not defend the model blindly. I have owned good 1911s and problematic 1911s, including a Dan Wesson CBOB which almost got me banned from the 1911 forum.

But I will tell you this: of the 25 or so 1911s I have owned, the vast majority have worked perfectly from round #1.
And all of them feed ball, FMJ and (especially) my 200gr SWC handloads...tons of them.

Of the ones with problems, most of them were easily repaired. On occasion, not necessarily by me.

More importantly, and more germane to our conversation, Springfield has a well-deserved reputation for customer service. If you own a Springfield that is giving you trouble, contact them, and they will make it right. And pay for shipping both ways.

It seems with 1911s you get either:

1. They suck and are unreliable.
2. They are 100% reliable all the time every time.

Pretty much polar opposites.

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You are mistaken. Or maybe you have said "It seems to me..."

You are making too broad of a generalization. No one with sense believes that they all work perfectly, no one here has said that, that I read. At least one person has said that they will not work except with ball ammo, which is wrong. Others believe that they are pretty much all troublesome. Even though they personally may not have shot one or owned one.

It's a wishy-washy uninformed opinion that states that "The truth lies somewhere in between". Nope, 1911s work...when properly built. You muck it up, they don't work. You buy a $5.00 magazine and expect the gun to run you will certainly have a problem.

Some fellas, I've become convinced, just can't shoot 1911s well and cause malfs. They complain about it but do not want to put the time into a gun to analyse the problem. They say often "I want a gun that is 100% out of the box". Nice sentiment. But if it's not that way for them they don't want to put the time in to learn. "But it should run well for me" they demand. But it ain't a Mr. Coffee or an electric toothbrush it's a hand gun and sometimes you need to take the time to learn.

tipoc

Nope, 1911s work...when properly built. You muck it up, they don't work.

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It's been my experience that the mucking is where a big part of the problem lies...and it's most often the polished feed ramp because the guy read on the internet that all 1911s need polished feed ramps or they won't run.

So, our boy proceeds and winds up with a gun that won't run...but at least his feed ramp looks nice.

The phone rang early one Saturday here on Poverty Ridge. Voice on the other end pleading for help with his new Colt. Won't even feed ball, he says. Bring it by, I says.

Wait for it...

"I just don't understand. I done me a KILLER ramp'n'throat on it...and it chokes almost every shot."

"Why did you do the work? Did it not feed?"

"Oh, it fed fine. I just wanted it to feed better."

*sigh*

Tomorrow is range day and I have not shot our 1911 for quite a while. Gotta take it out now and run 150 rounds thru her just to remember.

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You're breaking my heart!

Next Saturday my wife and I are taking our conceal carry class. I have been debating which gun I want to qualify with. I have been thinking about my 6" model 29 for grins and giggles but now I am seriously inclined to shoot one of my 1911's.

I have had 8 1911s. 2 needed slight adjustments to either the magazines I was using or a bit more extractor tension. The others worked 100% I still have 2. Both work 100%
I change the springs every 3000 rounds and inspect the mags. I get rid of any mags that have been damaged by dropping them on concrete during matches.
Shoot enough uspsa, and you will see lots of different types of guns not working for various reasons.

A self defense handgun should work the first time, everytime, excluding user error and bad ammo...I also don't trust lemons, even after they're fixed. It's just me, whether I'm too picky or not is up to you.

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Fisherman12,

Please put me at the top of your of list of people wanting to buy your "lemons."

I have a Colt Series 70 Gold Cup I brought 30 years ago. This was when IPSC was getting started in my area and Colt Gold Cups were selling for a premium price. New out of the box it would not feed even ball ammunition. Definitely met Fisherman12 definition of a "lemon."

I showed the gun to a gunsmith friend and this first thing he noticed was the feed lips on the Colt magazine were not formed correctly. I wrote a letter of complaint to Colt and they sent me a new magazine free of charge.

Guess what? The gun functioned fine and has every time since then.

But wait the story gets better. Over the course of shooting several hundred rounds through it the accuracy just got better and better as it broke in. This gun is capable of 1" groups at 25 yards in the hands of the right shooter. For me 2" groups at 15+ yards are normal.

Not bad for a lemon that cost me a postage stamp to fix.

As far as 1911s, IMO 500 round break-in period is ridiculous. 500 rounds(10 boxes) of 45ACP is about $200

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Why would you NOT want to spend the money and time to learn to shoot your gun as accurately as possible and to gain confidence in it's reliability?

We KNOW from the results of many shootings in the past that shooting skills generally degrade under pressure such as trying to save your life. I often see posts along the lines of "I got a my new gun and took it to the range. It's a accurate gun. Why I shot 12" groups at 5 yards." Then a dozen or so other posters jump in praising his new gun and shooting ability.

I have a high benchmark for my guns and my shooting ability. My guns must go 500 rounds without any failures other than defective ammo, bad magazines or shooter error. In fact all of my semi-auto's even run perfectly with cheap quality magazines (although I only use the el cheapos on the range).

My accuracy standard is 50 rounds in a 2" group at 7 -10 yards. I can shoot 2" groups at 15+ yards but I will confess to getting fatigued (old age and health) so they open up to 3" or so. I do have one semi-auto that is only capable of "Combat Accuracy" at 10 & 15 yards. By Combat Accuracy I mean 4" groups. But it is a 35+ years old Ruger and until recently very reliable. It started choking on me so I replaced all of the springs and it is currently undergoing my 500 round trouble free test. Since I don't have any real use of this gun for grins and giggles this winter I am going to subject it cold weather extremes without cleaning it and post the results. I say grins and giggles as I will never subject my self-defense guns to the tests I have planned. My plan is to eventually shoot 2,000 rounds only oiling it when it chokes. I'll post the results sometime next year.

Even The American Rifleman ran a article recently in which the author said that shooting 50 rounds through a new semi-auto was enough to test the gun for conceal carry.

I figure my life is worth more than $200.00. It is certainly much cheaper than a hospital visit.

I lost faith in 'em 20 years ago and decided to go with a modern DA design, never looked back.

Why would you NOT want to spend the money and time to learn to shoot your gun as accurately as possible and to gain confidence in it's reliability?

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I don't think anyone would discourage training for familiarity and proficiency. It's the specified need for a break-in period that some of us find unnecessary. That's the manufacturer finding a nice way to say, "We're not sure if this multi-thousand dollar thing we made actually works - why don't you go find out at additional expense to yourself?"

My current 1911 is a stainless steel Ruger SR1911 CMDR. Runs. Is not picky about ammo. My first 1911 was a milspec Springfield 20 years ago. Since then I've had a Kimber Ultra Carry II, a Para Ordnance Hawg, a full-sized RIA, a beautifully blued Cimmaron that purported to be an exact copy of the 1918 model. All functioned perfectly all the time. The next to last, before the Ruger, was an American Classic Commander. It had problems. Then I read a Gun Test magazine comparison test in which they gave it a 'D' because it was unreliable. I sold it. Aside from being reliable, the Ruger SR1911 is downright purdy. So was the Cimmaron. The shiny blue one is hard to find. If you find one, buy it. If you decide to pass on it, let me know.

I am beginning to think that the 1911 platform is for either experienced shooters or those who have been trained in its use. For me, it was an AIT drill sergeant who taught me how to hold it, feed it, field strip and clean it. I've had at least one and at times a half a dozen 1911s of various flavors. With the exception of one particular officer model which required some work-both for reliability and because my wife wanted it so badly and I wasn't going to hear the end of it, all of them have been very reliable. They eat every reasonable load I have fed them without pause and the few malfunctions have been the operators fault. I just cant get more reliable than that. And they have all been Colts, not to say they are better than others, just the only brand I have bought.

Modified definition of break in period.
Yes the gun should work properly from the box. But take a 1911 new from box and shoot it next the same 1911 that has had 1000 rds through it. Not saying that the 1000 rds are required, but a new 1911 that shoots well out of the box gets a whole lot better with use.

I read an interesting interview with Larry Vickers where he said when you get one, you have to agree to be your own armorer. Hilton Yam doesn't recommend 1911s any longer, they are too problematic compared to other more modern alternatives.

I've had seven 1911s, including a Nighthawk, and while none of mine gave me any trouble, they are an anachronism. I much prefer the HK45 I have now to any of them.

Pretty simple really, you either like them and own them or you don't.

Neither position makes you a bad person...

From Hex Head:

I read an interesting interview with Larry Vickers where he said when you get one, you have to agree to be your own armorer. Hilton Yam doesn't recommend 1911s any longer, they are too problematic compared to other more modern alternatives.

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Both the comments and opinions of Vickers and Yam can be found in the net. They have been much discussed on many forums. Not as often read or thought about unfortunately. Below is Yams...

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MY PERSONAL PATH AWAY FROM THE 1911
BY HILTON YAM | POSTED ON 03/03/2014 BY HILTON YAM | IN 10-8 PERFORMANCE 1911 MODERN SERVICE PISTOLS It has been noted more than once that lately there seem to have been many MSW articles recommending against the use of the 1911 as a service pistol. This is not really a new trend, and even since the days of the 10-8 Forums we have always cautioned folks that the 1911 is not for the casual user.

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A link to the entire article and related ones are there as well.

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=6631

One thing that you get from the articles is that he does not recommend against the 1911 for personal defense.

For decades Yam lived with 1911s. He shot them competitively and was and is one of the best 1911 gunsmiths around. He has a successful business making parts for 1911s and a business that began training people and agencies that began with the 1911. Everything he says in his article should tell the reader that the 1911 is a successful and reliable gun. If it was not you would not be reading an article by Hilton Yam. He would not have a business and you would not care what he said. His day to day life was the 1911. So what happened?

Tendinitis for one thing. He went to the 9mm and the S&W M&P. The other is that law enforcement agencies that used the 1911(Kimbers) had trouble with them and that wore him out answering questions.

Yam was always of the opinion that 1911s are not for everyone, as he says in the article. He recommends against them for police agencies preferring the S&W M&P a simpler and easier to maintain gun. I agree with him in that I would not recommend the 1911 as a service sidearm.

I also agree with Yam that I do see it as a viable personal defense weapon.

But read Yam and see what you see.

tipoc

But read Yam and see what you see.

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I have...and when I came to the part where he insisted on changing extractors every 5,000 rounds or whenever they lose tension...I was all LOLWUT?

And here I am...with extractors in a a pair of beaters that haven't needed attention of over 60,000 rounds...each...beyond periodic removal for cleaning, mostly because of the nasty ammunition that I shoot.

Then I remembered his magazine of choice, and I understood why he had to constantly fiddle with extractors.

Yam was always of the opinion that 1911s are not for everyone, as he says in the article.

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Mr. Yam is certainly entitled to his opinion...as everyone is...but he's neglecting to give credence to the fact that it was the official pistol for America's armed forces for nearly 75 years, and acquitted itself well during its tenure.

Malfunctions are merely learning opportunities......

My experience is with a series '70 Gold cup. Wish I hadn't sold that one.

Now I shoot an loaded Springfield 1911 in competition about 1500 rounds per summer, a new Ruger 1911 and a Enhanced colt 38 super about 500 rounds per year. Only time there is a problem it is my fault.

Original poster has not returned and posted since he started this thread. I don't think he really cares what we think.

I've had seven 1911s, including a Nighthawk, and while none of mine gave me any trouble, they are an anachronism

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If that is the case, doesn't it seem strange that there are more manufactures producing 1911's right now than there have ever been in its storied history?