A series of tactical mistakes I have done today

Carrying a means of deadly force can, at times, restrict your available courses of action.

Always, always, ALWAYS remember to balance your actions/responses with that knowledge. Contributing to an escalation, especially during an emotionally charged one, has a very good chance of backfiring in a number of ways.

It sucks...but that's the truth of it.

Some food for thought. I might be all wet here but... If you had been standing behind her there would have been no opportunity for this to have happened. Seriously, standing on a crowded train platform, stand behind her, in a crowded store, stand behind her. Cover her back and scan to the sides and front.

I think you let pride overshadow every other consideration.

Learn and don't make the same mistakes again.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I know you've learned from it and so are we. It is really important to assess the situations first before making decisions especially in gun handling.

As an outsider from a pretty different culture (USA), my perspective is that much of what is transpiring in European countries with respect to violent crimes like what you describe seems to be attributable to governments which have fostered a culture in which the people are not allowed to defend themselves.

And, quite frankly, I'm growing every more suspicious of official statistics on violent crime in many countries, the UK being at the top of my list.

Violence happens. It always has, it's happening now as I type, and it always will. You cannot legislate it away, and you most certainly cannot do so by legislating the people's ability to defend themselves away either. You can't make it go away by ignoring it, nor can you make it go away by insisting on living in a mental fantasyland where everything is rainbows and unicorn farts. And you most certainly cannot make it go away by crying "Unfair!"

And attempts to surrender all aspects of defense to the government has ALWAYS ended up worse for humanity in the long run. Far worse...because if there's one thing that's worse than one-on-one criminal activities like assault and rape, it's government institutionalized criminal activities, which can count their victims in the millions quite easily.


BUT...that's a subject for another thread. In this one, I think you've already gotten a lot of good feedback about your specific encounter, and similar encounters as well.

Snejdarek, to shed some clarity on some cow pie insinuating comments that have been made but never followed up on when you asked direct questions to clarify...

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/sexual-assault-overview.html

Sexual Assault: Definition

Specific laws vary by state, but sexual assault generally refers to any crime in which the offender subjects the victim to sexual touching that is unwanted and offensive. These crimes can range from sexual groping or assault/battery, to attempted rape. All states prohibit sexual assault, but the exact definitions of the crimes that fall within the category of sexual assault differ from state to state.

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If convicted of sexual assault, a lifetime requirement to register as a sex offender is common.

Regarding the shallow comments of sundress and opportunity.

A sundress offers no more of an opportunity for unwanted groping than a burka or blue jeans. Saying, or even insinuating, that it does is shallow and ignorant at the very least.

Groping is inappropriate unwanted sexual touching regardless of type of clothing.

It's never the women fault... it's the fault of the offender not having any self control.

To reduce or eliminate the opportunity of being (inappropriatly) touched would mean to reduce or eliminate going out in public.

There are situations when the likelihood increases... such as a mens prison for sexual predators.... but those guys would likely inappropriately touch a vacuum cleaner whether or not it was wearing a bikini or a suit or armor.... because they have no self control.

Thanks for your OP. For some, it will hopefully spark some thought as to how to best deal with the situation and the various risks associated. Low risk and high reward should be the goal. For others, hopefully it sparks some thought as to how they view women and how they view men who lack self control (and vice versa)

ETA, anyone that purposely touches my daughter or granddaughter in a sexual inappropriate manner should expect to have consequences. It won't matter their attire, it wont be tolerated, and their will be consequences. They should pray for mercy by law enforcement because I'm a bit hard of hearing sometimes.

I look at things from weird angles sometimes and this is just one of them.

Say things spiraled out of control and a prosecutor paints a different picture for the court?

How did you witness this long stroke across the bottom? Important because what the GF tells you after everything following goes down doesn’t matter much.

So these guys were going away from you and you call them back to you?

Next, you show them that you have a gun. What if one of them, lets say the “good” one of them for sake of argument, sees that as a threat and is also armed. Now we have a shootout taking place in a populated place for something that could have been handled in lot of other ways.

RetiredUSNChief said:

As an outsider from a pretty different culture (USA), my perspective is that much of what is transpiring in European countries with respect to violent crimes like what you describe seems to be attributable to governments which have fostered a culture in which the people are not allowed to defend themselves.

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Prague, and much of Europe, have lower violent crime rates than comparable US cities. That's true now and it's been true for some time. While I too wish that the self-defense laws were more in line with my values sometimes when I travel, to insinuate that a lack of individual SD laws makes these places more violent than gun-friendly America is patently untrue.

Mistake number one. If all the guy did was stroke your girlfriend's behind, it would have been better to ignore it. Under the circumstances.

Mistake two. You should have listened to your girlfriend first time she said "leave it be".

Mistake three. You left your girlfriend with a total stranger. I would not have done that, despite that you say he was apologizing for his buddy etc.

To sum it up... You let your ego get the better of you. Getting angry caused some errors in judgement as things progressed on.

RPZ said:

Mistake number one. If all the guy did was stroke your girlfriend's behind, it would have been better to ignore it. Under the circumstances.

Mistake two. You should have listened to your girlfriend first time she said "leave it be".

Mistake three. You left your girlfriend with a total stranger. I would not have done that, despite that you say he was apologizing for his buddy etc.

To sum it up... You let your ego get the better of you. Getting angry caused some errors in judgement as things progressed on.

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I live in a different culture than you but having a lifetime of experience dealing with undesirables, drunks, criminals, perverts, etc. I agree with these comments.

Since you were not the one being groped or what I would call a simple assault why were you getting involved? Your girlfriend apparently did not feel threatened and was not injured.

Here is food for thought on how to handle a future incident. When the groping / assault happens have her scream "Rape" or "Help", draw her peppermace and hose the attacker down. Yelling "Rape" or "Help" shows she was in fear of her safety. With the high profile of unwanted sexual advances / assaults / workplace incidents in the U.S. right now it would be highly unlikely that she will herself in any legal trouble as long as she responses as the incident is occurring.

@BSA1 looks like he nailed it with his recommendation on your girlfriend's response.

Remember, too, that antagonists like those individuals have an inherent understanding on what triggers people...and grabbing a lady's *ss in full view of her boyfriend/husband is a sure-fire way to manipulate most men into an altercation which plays right into their hands.

Yeppers...I sure like BSA1's advice a lot! (Mostly about the screaming "Rape" or "Help"...pepper spray/mace may not be legal in some places like the UK. Watch your own jurisdictional laws on this...and don't fall into that trap, either.)

Snejdarek said:

Fortunatelly the only thing regulated here are firearms. Pepper sprays, knives, telescopic batons, knuckles are all legal to carry / use in self defense.

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It is worth keeping in mind that badguys then can carry all those unregulated items as well.

Sorry, but I think you made several other mistakes much more egregious than those you list.

First.... Was your life in danger? Was your girlfriend's life in danger?

If the answer to either of these questions is no, then brandishing your CC weapon was, IMO, your biggest mistake. IMO, your piece doesn't get revealed or pulled unless it's a life threatening situation. And then it's pull, assess response to your draw, if perp doesn't immediately back off, then shoot to stop.

Second... Was the offense committed worth killing the person that committed it?

I personally believe that if I'm carrying, it's my responsibility to avoid confrontation. As any confrontation, when one party is armed, can result in the death of either me or the other person/people. So my CC piece is not coming out over anything short of me fearing for my life, or the life of those I'm connected to. And I'd suffer someone stealing my stuff or offending my pride long before I engaged in any type of conflict while armed.

Third... Are you some kind of mixed martial arts star that can take on multiple perps in a fight?

If not, you were much more vulnerable than you may think that you were. As I found this out the hard way long ago, two on one is no fun. You even said that these guys got too close (distance is often very difficult to manage) and they could have grabbed you, disarmed you and beat the $#it out of you, and then turned on your girlfriend. IMO, never count on a girl to throw punches, and as you said, all she had was spray... which is not easy to deploy right in the perps face, which is where it needs to be to be reliably effective. Even if your GF was carrying, do you really want to put her in a situation where she has to kill some jerk for pinching her but? Could she possibly go to prison for that? Just because you were stupid and too proud to "let anyone get away with offending your woman"

Fourth... Are you a sworn LEO with a moral duty to enforce the law?

You were not wrong to call them out.... but when they humbled themselves and apologized, that should have been the end of it. Chasing after them for this offense was you playing cop, plain and simple. My advise: don't play cop if your not a cop.

As I find is usually the case for myself personally, your should have followed your woman's advice and let it go.

My perspective... worth exactly what you paid to read it.