25 Internet Yards

[Old Fuff]

Anyone who attends any sizable bullseye tournament will see plenty of groups that are similar to the ones shown above, and shot standing with one hand at that.

The reality is that a substantial number of today's shooters never learned basic marksmanship. This may have always been true, but now it stick's like a sore thumb.

This is followed by denial, where they protest that what they can't do simply cannot be done.

Sure....

 

[WestKentucky]

I practice long shots with my big bores. I treat my wheelgun hunters like a small short range rifle. My 44 I am on a softball to 100 yards open sights. It is muscle memory, practice, and technique...more practice than the other two. So 5 inches at a 100 makes 2 inches at 25 sound silly. I shred the center at 25 with it, but it tears the paper so bad I don't actually know what my group is, golf ball sized hole

 

[ljnowell]

I'll include a couple 25 yard targets.

The first is a B16, which is the 25 yard bullseye slow fire target, from a 22 league a while back this year


This second target is a 25 yard slow fire (b16 again) from the centerfire portion of a bullseye match. It was fired double action with a S&W m19.



This last target was a rapid fire target from the centerfire portion of a match. It was fired with the same m19, also fired double action. That's two five shot strings in ten seconds each, btw

 

[41 Mag]

guyfromohio, I would agree that a new to me handgun, in the hand of a new handgun shooter, is stretching things a bit if they are getting 2" groups at 25yds. Have I seen it happen, nope, and I have seen plenty of shooters who have years of experience also not do it as well. Are there folks who CAN do it, absolutely and many who have never shot competition can do it very easily, but it doesn't come without plenty of practice.

I have been shooting and hunting with my revolvers for over 30yrs. In that time I have made plenty of discoveries in technique and load development that have increased my proficiency. I found that I shot the Ruger Redhawk very well early on. So as time went by that is what I basically centered my collection around. I now have them in 41,44, and 45 Colt and shoot them all pretty darn well. When I started hunting with a handgun I did not do so without makeing sure I was good and ready to do so. I shot if not, close to 400rds a week for close to a year or more before I even thought I was ready. I practiced at 25-50yds for most of that shooting. Even with a scoped 44 when I was practicing out to 100 from a solid rest, it took me nearly a year to get my groups within 2" and my longest self imposed limit was only going to be 25-50yds.

I purchased a IAI Javelina years ago in 10mm and another dozen or more years later picked up a 1911. There is a world if difference in the two recoil wise, but I still shoot the 10mm better. Not that it is any more accurate, just I have developed the load for it and hunted with it plenty of years. It is fully capable of 2" gorups at 50yds from a rest and not much bigger standing with a two hand hold.

Nowadays however, like others, my eye's are the limiting factor in most cases being far sighted with astigmatism isn't a good thing when drawing a fine bead on a sight post up close is involved. I can still bear down and hit what I am aiming at out to 50 or 100yds with all my handguns, but after all the years of practice, and load development it is still a chore to do so, and past around 35-40yds my groups are closer to patterns unless I really bear down.

I can still hit, or hit at least within a few inches of a crow sitting in the pasture at 200yds however with my bigger revolvers. My grandsons take great plesaure in pointing them out, and taunting me doubting I am able to hit them while we're at the farm. For them however, I think even a close miss is a cool thing.

 

[bhk]

All of my field revolves are sighted at both 25 and 50 yards from a sandbag rest. Never thought it was a big deal. Just finished sighting in a new 3" 686. No problem making 2.5 inch groups at 25 with it with 125grain softpoint .357s. I also tested it at 50 yards and put all shots in the black of a standard 25 yard bull. Grouping was not near as good, but I wanted to make sure a fifty yard coyote was in danger if we crossed paths.

My target autos are sighted in and usually shot at 25 yards. This is what they are designed for and shooting them at 10 yards just doesn't seem right.

My self defense guns are usually shot at targets from 3 to 15 yards away. Different gun types, different purposes, and different target distances. Makes sense to me.

 

[susieqz]

my groups are the result of shooting 1200 rounds/month, every month.
my 25 yard range in my backyard was set up using a tape measure.
so, when i say i can shoot 3'' groups one hand n 2'' groups two hand, i can. i need no rest.
people that are skeptical need to try practicing.

i'm not good enow for bulls eye competition yet, but i will be.

 

[MrBorland]

my groups are the result of shooting 1200 rounds/month, every month.
my 25 yard range in my backyard was set up using a tape measure.
so, when i say i can shoot 3'' groups one hand n 2'' groups two hand, i can. i need no rest.
people that are skeptical need to try practicing.

I have no doubts. 3"-ish at 25 yards is very achievable, but it takes practice, commitment and a positive mindset. Good on ya', Susie.

If you're interested in bullseye competition, give it a whirl. You're off to a good start.

 

[susieqz]

thanks, mrB.
i guess i'm kinda slow. i shoot 300 rounds/week n i never see improvement week to week, but i can see improvement month to month.
i budgeted 10.000 rounds to get good n i think i'll make it, but it's gonna take more for 50 yards. that's really hard.
i'll try competing next year. i'm not a male so i gotta do better than most to prove myself.
i prefer winning.

 

[murf]

dryfire, dryfire, dryfire! the secret technique to small groups (and what old fuff said about basic marksmanship).

murf

 

[MrBorland]

i'm not a male so i gotta do better than most to prove myself.
i prefer winning.

You don't have to prove your worth to anyone. Believing you do puts an awfully heavy monkey on your back. Unfortunately, it'll undermine all your hard effort as well.

Put another way, a big part of the shooting game is a good mental game, and a big part of that is avoiding distractions. Thinking about how you'll stack up against men and how you'll place is a distraction. In practice, and at a match, then, just focus on executing the fundamentals, and the results will take care of themselves.

 

[susieqz]

k, i'll watch that. lucky for me practice can be fun. i only missed 3 days in the first 5 months.
this week tho, i took 2 days off because it was feeling like a chore.
i do miss plinking. all i do is work.

 

[MCgunner]

I don't understand people that always shoot from rests or bags with pistols, or always shoot from lead sleds, strapped down with rifles. I understand sighting in, but after that it seems kind of odd. More so with the rifle. Shooting AR's at a 25 yard pistol range off of a bipod for hours seems useless as well.

I was firing my 6.5" Blackhawk with .357" 180 grain XTP hunting ammo off the bench at the range one day at 100 yards, putting my shots on a sight in target into 4" dead center. The two guys shooting rifles next to me were freaking out on the group, but it was off sandbags and this gun and load is REAL accurate. I guess they didn't think it could be done, either.

My Contender, 2X optic in .30-30 Winchester, can put every shot into 3" at 200 yards. I shoot a 150 Nosler BT over 34 grains of IMR3031. I've killed the most pistol killed game I've taken with this handgun. It embarrasses a lot of rifle shooters off the bench. I've killed 5 deer with it, a couple of hogs, and NEVER fired it off hand, always from a rest. I was taught to always fire from a rest with a rifle, even more important with a pistol. It's only good hunter ethics to make a clean kill.

To hunt game with a pistol, I try to be as good as I possibly can be with the handgun. I've practiced and practiced and practiced over 30 years of handgun hunting and near 50 years of handgun shooting. I do not practice with my hunting handguns at LESS than 50 yards, what would be the use? I like to practice off cross sticks or the bench as I would be shooting in the field. I'll never take an off hand shot with a pistol at game. I've gotten decent at it if I do say so myself, good enough that I KNOW an ethical shot from an iffy one in the field. I have not wounded and lost ANY game, yet and I took my first deer in 1963, with a rifle, of course.

 

[MCgunner]

Here's a rabbit I took at 40 yards with my Mk 2 one day, rested over a handily located low tree limb. Pistol hunting is a special challenge. Good pistol marksmanship is harder to obtain than good rifle marksmanship which does seem to elude some folks.



This squirrel was taken laying on my back with the gun rested over my knees. shooting up in the trees. Range was about 25 yards.




IHMSA shooting rules state no mechanical rests, so folks almost universally shoot from Creedmore, which is laying on your back, weak arm behind your head, resting your pistol over your strong side leg with elbow on the ground. Most competitors carry a pad to lay on. This is an amazingly sturdy shooting position and only uses parts of the body for a rest, no mechanical devices. It's not very field practical, though, shooting up into trees. I'll often carry an adjustable monopod along while handgunning squirrel and have taken quite a few over the years off my knees as described for this kill.

One does NOT have to only shoot free hand, not in the practical world. If I were to ever be in any sort of protracted gun fight, in fact, with a pistol, I'd immediately seek cover and look for a rest of some sort to shoot off of. Cheatin' is legal when your life's on the line.

 

[buck460XVR]

. And I acknowledge that a percentage of great shooters can group offhand at 25 yards. What say you THR? Do we call shenanigans?

I just call it the internet. Same place folks can hunt deer for 50 years, shoot hundreds of animals and never miss, never have one not drop in it's tracks DRT, much less wound and lose an animal. Does it happen, sure, but not as much as folks post. We are anonymous, we don't have to have notarized witnesses, we can throw away all those targets that don't impress and only post those where we had an exceptional day. How about all those Facebook posters that claim day after day their life is so wonderful and they never have a bad day? Their kids and grandkids are perfect and excel at everything they attempt. Heck, their dog has never even peed or thrown up on the carpet and when it farts, it smells like Honeysuckle.........

 

[CajunBass]

While I almost never shoot much past 21 FEET, I see no reason to doubt that others can and do shoot at that and at even longer distances.

When I was much younger, I belonged to a local IPSC club. I saw men, and women who were much better shots that I. They had more natural skills, and were willing and able to put in the time, spend the money, and get the training to be better than I was.

I'm sure there are still a lot of people out there like them.

 

[Old Fuff]

When I was much younger, I belonged to a local IPSC club. I saw men, and women who were much better shots that I. They had more natural skills, and were willing and able to put in the time, spend the money, and get the training to be better than I was.

One unfortunate misconception many people have is that to be a top (or at least reasonably good) marksman or woman, one has to be born with natural skill, spend inordinate time training, and blow a ton of money. Of course being young is important too.

Not so!!!

What you do need is determination, and a good book or manual that clearly explains the basics. Some 90% of required practice can be done by dry firing. Vision issues? Get glasses, and they don't need to be expensive.

And if you can shoot tight groups at 21 feet you can also hit a target with reasonable accuracy at 50 feet, 25 yards, 50 yards, and even 100 yards - if you know how to align your sights to match the bullet's trajectory. The target may look little, but when the bullet arrives it (the target) is as big as it was when you were standing 2 feet away. (If you don't think so, wait until the range is clear and then walk down to the target. Notice that as you advance the target keeps getting bigger and bigger).

The only thing that can keep you stuck at 21 feet is .... YOU!

 

[Plastikosmd]

One of my favorite range experiences happen at the 25yrd line. I don't claim to be a good shot but I do practice. When I got my p210 and took it out for the first time.

Of course, every club has "this guy," the one who wanders around, never shoots but has an encyclopedic knowledge of all guns. Well he was there when I pulled it out and began talking up the gun to all that were around to hear(no pressure.)

So I loaded up some cheap blazer 9mm and commenced shooting 5 shots at 25 yards, 2 hand standing.

I shot this, all were silent. He said, "see how accurate that sig is?, I told you." I put the gun away and left. Sometimes u get lucky

 

[1911 guy]

I see no reason to shoot at distances that are not challenging. Minimum for me and a handgun is 25 yards, average group used to be about 4 inches. Now that I wear glasses, it's opened up to about 5 or 6.

 

[SeanSw]

There are many fine shooters here. I have messed around a bit beyond 25 yards at the range when no one was looking but only put my shots to paper at that distance once. A friend invited me to his league shooting practice and set me up to give it a try. 50 rounds 10 shots each at 5-7-10-15-25 yards. This was my first time shooting a pistol indoors past 15 yards and also the only time I've ever shot under time constraints. This is nowhere near as good as the targets others have shown here, but it's genuine and I felt pretty good about it for a first timer.





Although I would be very careful to call BS on anyone's shooting claims but I did feel compelled to out a coworker (ex-marine) who was telling the entire room he could shoot a man in the eye at 1000 yards with an AR15. I simply said he was full of it and told everyone in ear shot not to believe him. Obviously this man was not used to being stood up to. He took offense and said he'd prove it if he still had his service weapon. I offered my own AR15 and directions to a 300 yard range if he could prove it at a shorter distance but he declined.

I am not a gifted shooter and a very poor athlete. I could never throw a spiral or make a fast pitch, and I wasn't quick or coordinated enough to play soccer. Asthma kept me from being the least bit competitive and I was the last pick on every team that I've been a part of. As an adult I simply cannot stand to watch team sports. However, shooting is the one sport I've tried that has not made me immediately feel at a disadvantage from the start. My eyes are good and I can operate a firearm. How refreshing and inclusive. I wish someone had introduced me sooner. It was nice not to start from behind and now I believe that cost and access to shooting facilities is my greatest hindrance. I am envious of those with the ability to shoot from their own yards or so near their homes that it doesn't take a days wages in range fees to practice. I'm now looking into archery as another way to get my fix.

I shoot much more often than my partner but she can still beat me for accuracy on my best day. She's a born natural, just like her mother, who was a long distance rifle champion. It is utterly remarkable to see how some people are "born with it" and can shoot at your level when it took you so much longer to get there. There's no amount of practice that will ever give me that rock-steady grip she was born with. My work bench and vice aren't as steady as her hands. She should have been a surgeon..... or at least a heavily sponsored competitive shooter!

 

[MCgunner]

One unfortunate misconception many people have is that to be a top (or at least reasonably good) marksman or woman, one has to be born with natural skill, spend inordinate time training, and blow a ton of money. Of course being young is important too.

Not so!!!

What you do need is determination, and a good book or manual that clearly explains the basics. Some 90% of required practice can be done by dry firing. Vision issues? Get glasses, and they don't need to be expensive.

And if you can shoot tight groups at 21 feet you can also hit a target with reasonable accuracy at 50 feet, 25 yards, 50 yards, and even 100 yards - if you know how to align your sights to match the bullet's trajectory. The target may look little, but when the bullet arrives it (the target) is as big as it was when you were standing 2 feet away. (If you don't think so, wait until the range is clear and then walk down to the target. Notice that as you advance the target keeps getting bigger and bigger).

The only thing that can keep you stuck at 21 feet is .... YOU!

Amen and amen.

 

[samweller]

I shoot silhouette BG targets at 20 feet, 10 yds, and 25 yds. I shoot moving and on uneven ground, from cover, sometimes one handed, some heaters. All my shots are in the torso at 25 yds. I'm happy with that. I hate ranges, so I have my own area on my property with a high bank as a backstop. I don't like to shoot static from a textbook stance (although I do to keep in practice). No telling where you will have to shoot from in self-defense. If you shoot somebody at 25 or 50 yds. who is not shooting at you, you might be in trouble, depending on your state.

 

[CajunBass]

The only thing that can keep you stuck at 21 feet is .... YOU!

You're right about that. I could run the target out to twenty-five yards if I wanted to.

I just don't want to. I did all that (and a lot more) back in my IPSC days. I don't want to anymore.

 

[sammy]

25 yards is not too difficult as long as you discipline yourself and practice regularly. I made a point of practicing 3 times a week bringing only one pistol and a spotting scope. It is important to try and call every shot. If you can't call your shot, chances are you were not focused on the front sight or you flinched. Asses every shot and try to do better on the next one.

The target below is on a very good day, offhand 25 yards. It probably measures 4 inches. Still trying to improve.

 

[mooninpisces]

Shooting is mostly an exercise in using MENTAL CONCENTRATION to apply
SHOOTING FUNDAMENTALS.

Factors such as long sight radius, firm grip, proper stance, and good trigger control will amount to absolutely nothing, UNLESS THE SHOOTER KNOWS HOW TO CONCENTRATE.

Any shooter can use a 2-inch barrel, snub nose revolver OFF-HAND and
easily hit every 8-inch plate on a target rack, IF THEY HAVE GOOD FUNDAMENTALS AND THEY KNOW HOW TO CONCENTRATE.

Any shooter can take the same snub nose and easily make a center of mass hit, OFF-HAND, at 50 yards, IF THEY HAVE GOOD FUNDAMENTALS AND THEY KNOW HOW TO CONCENTRATE.

Mental concentration and shooting technique are inextricably linked! Without one you cannot possibly have the other.

Ask yourself, how many shooters are truly concentrating when they
go to the firing range? The sad answer if not many shooters do not understand
the link between proper physical technique and complete mental focus.

 

[The Big D]

It's definitely shenanigans (as are many if not most internet accuracy claims). Or else they're shooting off a bag and/or ridiculously slow. I figure if I can get them all in the 10 or 9 ring of a B8 target (just over 5 inches) firing offhand at a reasonable pace with a .45 or 10mm, both me and the gun are doing our jobs.