30 of 32 died after the cops arrived

[S.P.E.C.T.R.E.]

I look at it this way. You don't go mountain climbing without the proper training and equipment, expecting if you get into trouble you'll just sit down and wait for the rescue chopper. You need to be self-sufficient and take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for your safety. Rescuers may or may not find you before you starve or freeze to death.

Also, you don't go out into the world without the proper training and equipment. If you do, don't wring your hands and wonder how this could have been prevented. You don't see mountain climbers demanding measures to prevent snowstorms.

 

[Rumble]

The Supreme Court itself has said the police have no duty to protect people.

Was that a slam against police?

Truth is truth. If someone is offended by that statement they need to rethink things.

I'm not disputing the truth of the statement. I thought it was a perfectly apt message (if slightly inaccurate, since there were already police on campus, but that's neither here nor there). I was simply saying that wordsmithing could lessen the chance of misinterpretation. Clearly some people saw it as cop-bashing already, so even if they need to rethink things, how does the alteration in the wording hurt?

 

[kellyj00]

the truth is pretty simple, nobody knows what was going on that morning except the police. What we saw was footage of police hiding behind patrol cars, but we also saw video from a students phone where the cops were trying to get inside. We didn't see a lot of what actually happened.

Possibly, there was a special operations team assembled that morning to raid the dorm looking for the first killer and were ready to jump when the second shooting happened in Norris hall. So, all those cops may have been just acting as perimeter for the swat team inside that was tearing up the building.

Their is one horrible possibility, and I haven't seen anything to prove this in any way... that the police were cowering behind their police cars, knowing that each shot they heard was going into a person and people were dying and they were just afriad that they'd get shot themselves if they intervened. I really don't think this is likely, what is more likely is that the cops had no idea how horrible it was in that building and had no leadership telling them to go in. For all they know it could have been someone shooting into the ceiling or trying to shoot open a door inside or shoot out windows...something less than a mass shooting.

For a man to sit and watch a mass shooting unfold, knowing perfectly well that he could intervene is just not something I want to accept from a policeman, and I honestly feel it isn't possible among a group of policeman.

 

[MD_Willington]

ingram

look closer at the picture, the people in the poster appear to be from Olegs photos... Actually the male in the poster outlined looks like a blury Oleg...

 

[Fosbery]

Great idea. Great poster.

Only complaint is that it needs some sort of RKBA context. If I saw that on a wall with no context I'd just think "is this guy campaigning against the VA police or..."

 

[buzz_knox]

For a man to sit and watch a mass shooting unfold, knowing perfectly well that he could intervene is just not something I want to accept from a policeman, and I honestly feel it isn't possible among a group of policeman.

Actually, it's happened before. Outside of Columbine, there have been cases where police waited for backup, knowing that a murder/rape/etc was taking place inside.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

I've attended a school at GPSTC taught by a group of instructors who wrote the cirr. based upon the Columbine scenario.

It was well thought out and covered several possible time lines as well as the actual time line which went down the day of the shooting.

In the end the decision to go or stay and wait for backup was not answered, it is left up to the individual officer.

Personally I carry a small backpack in my trunk which contains 4 more pistol loaded mags and 4 extra M4 mags.

I also carry my M4 in the car patrol ready.

My choice is simple, upon arrival if I can hear the gunfire I'm calling the info to dispatch then I'm grabbing my rifle and bag and I'm going to the gunfire. If I have backup fine if not, well... thats what I'm paid for isn't it?

Stupid move, perhaps but I could not live with myself if I stood by in a parking lot listening to the sound of gunfire and not doing a damn thing.

If I die, so be it, I knew the risk.



The closest thing to a school shooting I've handled was a knife call at an elementary school a few years back and I went straight in and within 4 minutes had the kid in custody. It was actually a basic call, no one hurt the kid simply threatened a teacher with the knife, displayed it then ran to another classroom.

 

[v35]

The individual cops wanted to go in, but rules stopped them. Bash the rules and their makers not the cop with the gun.

Such rules are designed to protect the cops so that they have a greater chance of success, and I submit that "bashing the rules and their makers" is ill-advised.

A shooting incident like this one is a chaotic event - police are called upon to act with little information, if any at all. All they may have been told is that there were shots fired. The unanswered questions are numerous: how many shooters? Where are they? What kind of weapons? Are the shooters in a building, outside, up a tree, walking around, driving a car? Are there hostages? Without knowing these details, cops can't "go in" with any assurance that they'll be able to do anything with effectiveness, and their job is to stop the attacker, defend the attacked, all the while being able to defend and justify their actions when the Monday morning quarterbacks assemble to critique their actions.

Defending one's self from an attacker directly presents far fewer uncertainties and variables.

These are but a few of the reasons that law-respecting students, teachers, professors, and others who refuse to cede their God-given right to defend themselves to someone else ought to be able to do so without fear of breaking the law.

 

[AKCOP]

I'm an old retired cop and I believe police agencies today are overcomplicated and it creates situations like what happened here.

Think back to the Texas tower shooter, how did that end. Just regular street cops taking the initiative to do the right thing and do it without delay. No swat, no fancy combat uniforms, no head set radios, no high tech weapons.
Damn good police work, that was what it was...

Too much emphasis today put on tactics, swat, high tech weapons, combat uniforms, getting permision from someone who has power over someone else before you do anything. When I was attending my police academy someone asked one of the instructors "do you ever get scared?" his reposnse always stayed with me, he said "when I take the oath and people are depending on me I don't have the right to be scared"

Damn in my day you would have for sure been busted for not going in there and chasing the bad guy down. if you are not willing to take the risk you do not have the right to wear the badge. I'm not saying you should be stupid, but come on, at some point you need to get inside and find out what the heck is going on. Standing around outside waiting for something to happen just results in what we see today.

 

[roo_ster]

When you are in peril, the only one you can count on being there and rendering aid is...you.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Montreal's lesson: Police act fast
CNN ^ | April 16 2007 | AP

MONTREAL, Canada (AP) -- When a lone gunman entered Dawson college in Montreal and began shooting last September, police counted on new procedures and a bit of luck to neutralize the assailant quickly.

Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire at the downtown Montreal college last September, slaying a young woman and wounding 19 other people before he turned the gun on himself as police cornered him.

As luck would have it police officers on the scene for an unrelated matter were rapid first responders able to spot the suspect. But in a city which had seen two college shootings in the 17 previous years, police had also gained experience from the previous incidents to keep the situation from getting out of control.

Montreal Police Chief Yvan Delorme said last September that precious lessons learned from other mass shootings had taught police to try to stop such assaults as quickly as possible.

"Before our technique was to establish a perimeter around the place and wait for the SWAT team. Now the first police officers go right inside. The way they acted saved lives," he said.

(Excerpt) Read more at edition.cnn.com ...

 

[DC-Loudsound]

Great Poster !

Great One Oleg ! That one is going up in my office right now !

For whatever it's worth .... No cop bashing here .... LEO's have one of the most difficult jobs I can think of. They put their lives on the line everyday. Some cops are better than others ... just like anything else, there are good ones and bad ones. I believe the good outnumber the bad by leaps and bounds.

To all the LEO's out there ... Thank You for your service.

 

[preWWWIIbuff]

OMG

This is truly OMG.
The POLICE thought the shooter left the state?*** and WHY did they think this?
If I am on condition yellow all the time.
At a multiple shooting it is RED!
I do not assume that since two are dead all is well.
GREAT POSTER!
For all who say change it I think not.
But if it were changed it might say something like this at the bottom.
BROUGHT TO YOU WITH 1A
PROTECTED BY 2A

 

[SoCalShooter]

That one chills me to the core Oleg. Nice work.

 

[AndyC]

I just ordered 'Dial 911 and Die' from JFPO - directly as a result of seeing the cops just hang around outside while shots were being fired.

 

[fletcher]

The point in this one is excellent - great work.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Cops are good, but they simply can't be everywhere at once and they can't do everything. That's why honest citizens should have the right to carry.

Great thread!!

 

[uabfan]

"In the end the decision to go or stay and wait for backup was not answered, it is left up to the individual officer."

This is similar to the policy of the department I work for when an active shooter is encountered. It's left up to the individual officer arriving on scene whether to go in alone (after notifying dispatch of intentions) if they think they can stop the threat safely or wait for backup. Of course, "safely" is a matter of opinion....obviously, if I'm laying dead from a gunshot wound 3 feet inside my point of entry that does nobody any good. My department has trained as a whole at our schools for this as well as individual officers putting in a little additional training time to find the best places to approach the schools, best points of entry without being seen, best ways to navigate to hallways/rooms/etc. Of course, all officers are different, even within departments and shifts. From working with the same guys/gals every day I have a pretty good idea of who will do what when presented with the active shooter scenario. I'd like to think a few of my like-minded buddies are working that day and are there....however, they'll probably be on vacation that day.

Like TheFederalistWeasel I'll grab my 4 extra 1911 mags and 2 extra M4 mags and do what I've trained to do......and, hopefully the city won't deny an overtime card when I turn it in.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Another big thumbs up Oleg, you really are brilliant at this...


I see no cop bashing whatsoever in this poster.

 

[nwilliams]

As soon as the first shots were fired the cops should have been inside searching for this guy. I think they could have tracked down this killer in no time. Students were calling the police, the shots could be heard outside and students were fleeing from the area where the shooter was.

It doesn't make sense to me, if shots are fired that means people are dying, its not up to an armed citizen to take action if the cops are right there on the scene. While this lunatic was trying to bash down doors and walking down the halls shooting people the cops should have been right on top of him.

I'm not a cop, I wasn't there so I don't know for sure maybe there were circumstances that I'm not aware of. BUT this is the thing that bothers me the most about this whole tragedy. The cops were there and the guy still managed to kill 30 people before killing himself. If they knew what building he was in, why did they wait outside while shots were being fired? SWAT or no SWAT officers should have entered the building and dropped this maniac.

Just my ¢2

 

[kludge]

Absolutely one of your best Oleg.

Very, very few people knew I carried on campus. I was made only once... by a close friend... who then told me that she carried too.

At the time I thought I was a little stange that I could envision a "madman" killing people in their classrooms.

In the aftermath we all stand around and wish someone had known, wish someone had done something.

One man did... a holocaust survivor...

I imagine he has spent decades wishing someone ANYONE had done something, had defended themselves and stood up for their friends and neighbors... he probably made his decision long ago what HE would DO when he again faced evil.

God bless him.

And I wish that he had not been stripped of his power to do more good.

 

[mindwip]

Wow nicely done

 

[Mannlicher]

halfacop

Cop Bashing - I knew it would only be a matter of time.

I don't see this as cop bashing, but then at this point, some 'first responder' bashing might be in order.
I was shocked to see all the cops, decked out in the latest "TactiCool" gear, hunkering down behind their cars, listening to the sound of the kids being killed.
The best thing cops seem to do these days, is fill out detailed after action reports

 

[akodo]

I like it

However, they are right that there were cops on campus,

How about 'on the scene' instead of 'on campus'

or what about "30 of 32 died while police 'formed a perimiter'"

also, where is this information from? when i bring this up with some anti and fence sitter friends, I can't say 'this guy oleg who runs a pro gun board made some poster with it!' i need a bit more backup.

 

[hso]

Excellent!