45ACP or 9mm.

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VA Tech? UVA?....

I do not recall a mass shooting at the U of Virginia, Charlottesville VA in 2007. :confused:
I think the forum member is thinking of the VA Tech university incident.

Rusty
www.Virginia.edu
 
it's interesting when folks here sometimes state that a modern (= hot loaded) 9mm is on-par with a standard JHP .45 ... and at the same time state that with 9mm you have less recoil and hence get more shots on target than with the .45

well... a +P 9mm does KICK fairly comparable to a .45. No way around it. You typically do NOT get .45 performance with the recoil of a 112gr soft loaded 9mm plinking round
 
It's always been a conundrum for me. I settled it by buying guns in both calibers.

Truth is, I've got no problem with either the 9mm or 45. Or, some of the small calibers if the situation and urge strikes me.

+1 on hits being the critical factor.
 
There's more room for error with a .45.

Both will put somebody down if you do your part. Neither will if you miss.

I've carried both and didn't feel poorly armed in either case.
 
I'm almost 61 years old. I shoot my 45's much better than I shoot my 9mm, but then again, I practice with the 45's probably 5x what I shoot the 9mm.

My concern, as I get older, is whether the recoil of the 45 will start to wear on me. I've done a lot of thinking lately that I need to start getting my 9mm inventory set up and start shooting them more.

Can any of the "older" guys chime in?
 
I'm 58 and never really could "handle" .45 from an Officers ACP in accurate rapid fire. I use 9mm as my go to for carry/SD guns...but lately I have been improving with the .45 to the point I'd consider "moving up" and adding the .45 to my carry rotation.

I never felt the .45 beat me up so much as was not controllable in rapid shooting....the only guns that beat me up are my .357 with 158 gr. full house out of a 2 1/2" barrel and the Ruger LCR with hot +P .38 Special.

VooDoo
 
I have a Ruger P85 and a Ruger P90. The guns are very similar, but the .45 has a much better trigger and trigger transition from DA to SA. I like the gun MUCH better, so it's the one I carry. I don't even consider the caliber difference enough to outweigh the difference in the guns. I've shot a lot of matches with both guns, always used the P90 for momentum games, even won a few. That gun and i have a zen thing going. :D It's also more accurate than the P85, though both are plenty combat accurate.
 
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Post #57....

When I purchased my police trade in Glock 21 .45acp generation 04, I shot about 260 rounds(230gr FMJ). It caused my hand to get a lot of pain after a bit. :(
I can see why some top instructors like Hamilton Yam(who also had medical issues) converted to 9x19mm.
I plan to keep my Glock 21 .45acp & use it for security posts but I also plan to get a Glock 23 .40 or M&P full size .40S&W then buy after market 9x19mm barrels.
I also want to get a "no thumb safety" Shield 9mm pistol. That would be as a BUG or deep carry gun when I don't have the big Glock 21 .45acp model.
 
VooDoo, just out of curiosity - ever tried a Glock 30? I know you like the 26....

I ask because the G30 minimizes the felt recoil of .45acp, at least in my perception. That fat grip spreads it out, the polymer absorbs it, and it's amazing to me how softly the lightweight 30 shoots. Granted, the 26 is softer still, but the 30 gives most 1911s a run for the money in speed and accuracy - and passes the 1911 right about shot number 9 or 10.....
 
Posted by texasgun: it's interesting when folks here sometimes state that a modern (= hot loaded) 9mm is on-par with a standard JHP .45 ... and at the same time state that with 9mm you have less recoil and hence get more shots on target than with the .45

well... a +P 9mm does KICK fairly comparable to a .45. No way around it. You typically do NOT get .45 performance with the recoil of a 112gr soft loaded 9mm plinking round
A 230 grain bullet fired at at 950 fps will generate more than one and one half times the felt recoil of a 124grain bullet grain bullet fired at 1126 fps from a firearm of the same mass.

Simple physics.
 
I have three 9mm's and three 45's. They are all good. To me felt recoil depends on the size of the gun as much as the caliber. My subcompact 9mm bothers my hand; my 1911 doesn't.

For HD I prefer my 357 magnum. I have seen enough research to be convinced.
 
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I've chronographed a lot of 9mm factory loads, 115gr, 124gr, 147gr, and have yet to see anything fly out of a standard service-length pistol barrel at 1300 fps, including the infamous Federal 115gr. +P+. Averages of 1050-1150 are much more common.
 
I thought I was a .45 guy for a long time. One day it hit me that it wasn't the round I liked, but the 1911 platform.

I had thought about a 1911 in 9mm for a while, but didn't start looking until the price of ammo skyrocketed, or there was a shortage, I can't remember which...

After a month or two of searching, I bought an STI Spartan. A 9mm 1911 is a really soft shooting pistol. I should have grabbed that Loaded Springer years ago. Too pretty to carry, so I slept on it, and missed out...

I feel either is adequate for defense. But 9mm is easier on my wrists, elbows, and wallet, especially on long range sessions. The first time I took my spartan to the range I put 400-450 rounds through it. Despite the bandaids, I didn't feel near as beat up as I did years ago.
 
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When I had a FA Uzi in 9mm and a huge round drum mag I definitely wouldn't have wanted to be on the other end. :) But that's the only 9mm I've ever owned, because way back when I shot Bullseye which was all .22 and .45acp. I loved the .45 and just stuck with it and now own all kinds of them, but I'll carry anything from a 5 shot XDS to a XD45 with a 13-rd mag to a 1911. I also think shot placement is the key, and as for the cost of ammo I reload.
 
It depends.

But, I'd likely go with 9mm over 45ACP purely for logistics reason.

If the pistol in question is anything smaller than compact pistols, my choice is 9mm.

If the pistol in question is compact~ full size and I have a larger budget, then 45ACP would be my choice, under the assumption that the pistol has at least 10 rd magazine capacity and a grip I can reach the trigger with.

That's if the choice is only between 9mm and 45ACP.

My actual choice is 40S&W.
 
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Wow, late to the party again!

IMO the 45 Auto will put a man down quicker than the 9mm but both are good defensive cartridges. Shot placement is very important and when that doesn't work try shot placement. (like already said)

Slow and heavy really does work. For some reason here in America speed is glorified. You really only need enough velocity to reliable expand the bullet used in the ammo and enough velocity to insure that bullet penetrates deep enough to hit something that matters. Any velocity above that is wasted and can hurt your accuracy due to excessive recoil. I guess it's all the fault of the marketing weenies telling you unless you are shooting hyper velocity ammo you are not well armed.

Here is an example of praying to the velocity gods:
I was practicing at the range with my carry, a S&W Airweight J frame. A guy I see there a lot starts telling me I should be shooting a 9mm because it's "better". I ask why it's better and he says, well, your .38 Special only does 850/900 fps but the 9mm will do 1300 fps. It's close to a .357 Magnum he tells me. OK, it's true there is more velocity with the 9mm but that doesn't make it better, especially when his groups were similar to a shotgun pattern @50 yards and mine could be covered with a fist. In many shooters minds more velocity = better. I completely disagree...

Same thing holds true with younger shooters and rifles. There are a lot of young hunters out there who feel they need a 300 Win Mag for deer hunting. They think a 30-06 isn't good enough for that chore. What I want to know is, when did deer grow armor plating and when did the 30-06 turn into a Varmint round? Again, they are looking at velocity. Even though the 30-06 will cleanly take anything in North America the 300 Win Mag pushes the bullet faster so it must be better, right? :rolleyes: Forget the fact they probably won't practice as much with a 300 Win Mag compared to a 30-06 and in turn they probably won't be as good a shot as they should be. I shoot my hunting rifles a lot during the year so I know exactly what they will do under all conditions. You can't know that when a box of ammo lasts you 3 years or more! lol
 
I admit to being a 45 fan boy.
I admit to believing the 45 to be a "better" defensive caliaber
I admit to flat out disliking the the 9mm
I admit......my bias.


So with that I have a HONEST question.
What difference do the velocity differences really make?
And for what is worth, I've wondered this in other caliaber comparisons.

Oh 1 more
I admit that I belive bullet mass/weight has as much (and maybe more) "importance" in a defense situation than velocity, but I also don't know why relatively minor velocity differences matter soooooo.

We'll go with the more common grain weights in both calibers for this one, 124 for 9mm and 230 for 45:

124 grains = 8.04 grams
230 grains = 14.90 grams
185 lb person = 83,915 grams

In then end, the are all just little balls of lead, basically the same size in relation to a human being, moving at round the speed of sound, plus or minus a few hundred feet per second.

Yes, the 45 may have a very slight edge on diameter, but all things being equal a 9mm will produce lower recoil for faster follow-up shots.

Ford or Chevy, Toyota or Honda.

I'm fine with any medium or large bore handgun caliber for defense. I carry guns that have run reliably and I can shoot most instinctively. I have different types/sizes that fill different roles depending on what I'm doing, how I'm dressed and where I'm going. The calibers I carry from most frequent to least are:

1. .38 special
2. 45 ACP
3. .44 special

Love the 'ole .38. With the right ammo it has good penetration and expansion, it has a low report and low recoil in my steel K Frames. For me, that platform offers the best all around combination of dependability, conceal-ability and shoot-ability.
 
VooDoo, just out of curiosity - ever tried a Glock 30? I know you like the 26....

That's an excellent suggestion and I thank you for it. :)

Maybe it's like the G42...softest shooting .380 and even with hot loaded ammunition it remains controllable. I think it's the low bore axis among other things. Off topic and I apologize. :uhoh: :)

Back to the .45 and 9mm discussion - most everyone who is reasonable agrees that shot placement, penetration, and fast follow up are the fight winners and that caliber and chest thumping fall way down the list. But whether .45 or 9mm I think it's the gun and the shooter, his skill and familiarity with the platform and all things associated with the control ability and accuracy of that platform in *that* shooters hands that can tip the balance.

In all things martial, a good big fighter will beat a good small fighter every time with all things being equal - I think the key in SD is to make sure your fighter is bigger and all things are not equal. That your skill level and familiarity with your weapons are not equal or less than and that your Bag-O-Tricks contains strategies and tactics that use your weapons platform to a higher level of effectiveness than the other Dog in the fight.

VooDoo
 
Thanks to those of you who helped me try to answer my earlier questions.

@ VooDoo -- I'll second Teachu2's suggestion to try a Glock 30. I haven't shot a G30, but I shot a couple of G21s that buddies of mine own. Those are surprisingly soft shooters. In addition to the weight of the pistol (the G21 is still a pretty big gun), I have this theory (perhaps more of a WAG) that polymer flexes and absorbs some recoil.

I don't want to derail the thread any further, so I'll get back to the original question:

Both cartridges are within my "acceptable parameters" for carry.
I like the .45.
I like having the extra capacity that my G19 gives me.
I shoot both .45 and 9mm moderately well.
I currently carry a 9mm most of the time.
I am considering a return to the .45 for carry.

IOW, I don't have the definitive answer.
 
I'll take the liberty of reordering some points made by Frank ettin in Post #40:

  1. Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
  2. Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
  3. More holes are better than fewer holes.
  4. Larger holes are better than smaller holes.

The first and second are obviously of equal importance. The third is true in its own right, but in practice, it also helps to achieve the first. The fourth is last for a reason.

I'll add a fifth point: too much penetration is of little use and can become a lability.

From the standpoint of terminal ballistics only, if a bullet accomplishes the second, it doesn't matter one whit whether it is heavy and slow or lighter and faster.

Penetration is a function of mass, velocity (squared, actually), and bullet design, the third item taking into account sectional density, shape, and what happens to the bullet upon impact and during its journey in the target.

If the bullet penetrates enough, it does not matter why. And anything that passes the FBI tests will do the job.

But terminal ballistics is only one aspect. In order to address the first and third items in a violent encounter with a moving target, one must be able to shoot very fast, and with sufficient accuracy,and that requires that recoil not be excessive, and one must have sufficient magazine capacity.

The 9MM parabellum rounds of 1908 would not meet the requirement to down a horse, nor would we be apt to choose them today. But things have advanced a lot since then. The larger capacity and lighter recoil of todays's 9MM loads are two of the reasons that the pendulum has been swinging from the .45 ACP and past the .40 S&W to the 9.

Rob Pincus has made that journey and says that he has to admit that he was wrong in the old days.

I knew none of the above when I chose a .45 five years ago.
 
Calculating the surface area if you consider .45 being 100% the
9mm/.355 is approx. 63%

This calculator does kinetic energy / Momentum and John Taylor's
'Knock Out' aka K.O.

http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/

I have a Revolver a Full size 1911 and a Commander
in .45 ACP. My 0xx10 is the venerable CZ 75B

Carry Loads
9x19 +P Hornady XTP @ 1,100 FPS
.45 ACP Federal 230 gr. HST JHP @ 900 FPS

using the Taylor K.O. Calculator
9x19 .45 ACCP
Energy 394 413
Momentum: 23 29
K.O. 8 13

Speer's Ballistic Tables
.45 ACP are 5" 9x19 4" Bbl. and
typically other ammo makers use
those differeing barrel lengths due
the 19111 is a 5" and the full size
Luger are 4"

Apples and Oranges I like both

I got on this forum about 9? years ago
and the first thread I noted was .45 vs
.357 Mag - used to read those articles
in gun rags in the '60s.

Randall
 
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