Why do people hate the 9mm?

[Rifleman6555]

I have used 9mm handguns and sub guns in defense of my life in places you don't want to be. I carried a 9mm Swedish K and a Czech CZ75. Both were using hardball and both were used at one time or another and both got me home. I muse at the Internet Ninjas who lambaste the 9mm and tout nothing less than 40 because they read about it in other internet sites or heard about it from another Ninja. They don't know any more about combat shooting then they do about forni.....well watch the movie Patton to get the rest of that speech.
When I stopped doing things that could get me killed, I bouht myself a CZ75 in 9mm. It is my go-to handgun. I do have Speer Gold Dots in it now and not hardball. My one concession. Waiting to try out the new Hornady Critical Defense round now. It looks good. I know the 9mm will stop and will kill. I have seen it and I am here to tell ya.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Okay, here are my thoughts on the 9mm. I personally swear by it, simply because it is the biggest caliber I can afford to shoot regularly, and get good with, and there are pocket pistols out there in 9mm.

You do have 9mm haters, but most people don't hate the 9, they simply prefer something else.

As for those that say it's adequate, but not as good as .45 and .40, what I can say is this: In a FMJ, you couldn't be more right. Stick some flying ashtrays in it, and there isn't a big enough difference between 9 and it's competition to matter.

 

[IndianaBoy]

I carry and am completely comfortable with my 9mm.

I can shoot much larger quantities of 9mm due to cost. Thus I am more proficient with it. I am comfortable with the defensive capability of a 9mm loaded with a quality JHP.

 

[ArmedBear]

A quick check of some ballitics tables I saw the .40 was more effective at it's intended job.

As I wrote above, energy overstates the importance of velocity. Momentum is probably more indicative of how hard of a "whack" the thing packs.

 

[skoro]

I think for many it's a macho thing.

The 45acp is a fat, manly round. In comparison, the 9mm looks kinda weak. I'm lucky because I own both. I carry a 9mm and keep another 9mm in my vehicle. They're sensible-sized weapons with decent capacity.

I love shooting my 1911, but it's too big to carry for my needs and man, is that ammo pricey.

 

[Bezoar]

simple, its easy to find the shooting accounts and dash cam video tapes of big linebacker size guys taking 6 rounds of police hollowpoints form a 9mm and simply walking around afterwords and still yelling at the cops.
Besides, ER teams prefer 9mm shootings because the FMJ just pass right through thebody like a drill bit in soft butter. 45 acp smashes things up on its way through.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I don't hate the 9mm...my wife carries a 9mm because its about all the recoil she can handle when it comes to shooting fast.

I do prefer the 45...I came to this conclusion after doing some deer hunting with pistol rounds (9mm, 40, 45acp).

I won't go into a lot of details about terminal performance...but the 45acp is a more efficient killer. The 40 is a close 2nd, and the 9mm lags way behind...I won't be using that round on any more deer. It took at least 3 rounds of 9mm to kill a deer...all vital zone hits, all within 20 yards, all ran waaay too far after being hit.

I realize that deer may be harder to kill than the average human...but the point is still clear.

 

[blikseme300]

Bush war 9mm experience

My first post here on THR.

I served in the bush war a little to the west of Rhodesia in the mid 80's. Twice I needed to use a 9mm to defend myself. I am still around - the 2 AK47's were turned in... The pistol used was a Star B standard issue using standard NATO FMJ 9mm 115gr. One shot to the chest kills, both.

Today I carry a CZ75BD even though I have a choice of any handgun available in Texas. Do I trust the 9mm for self defense? Yep! BTW, for the academics, I do prefer a rifle or shotgun for home defense, but these are not always at hand.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

It is every 9mm's dream to grow up to be a .45

 

[inSight-NEO]

I dont think its a "hate" thing. Unfortunately, it seems to be of general opinion that for 9mm rounds to be of truly "effective" use for, lets say HD, +P or more is needed. Also, while still an obvious killing caliber, the 9mm just doesnt have the over-all "stopping" status of other available calibers (no..Im not talking magic bullets here either). Im approaching this from a ballistic standpoint, by the way. Now, there are exceptions to the rule and certainly there are some very effective "standard pressure" loads available. So, keep in mind, Im speaking of the general...not the specific. I certainly wouldnt feel "unprepared" with a 9mm loaded with Federal 115g. JHP (9BP). I reference this round because we, my wife and I, prefer to use standard pressure loads out of our Sig.

Frankly, it seems like most people who choose a 9mm do so because of the following: lower cost of ammo, easier to shoot vs larger calibers (although I somewhat disagree with this) and generally higher mag capacity. These are, to be honest, good considerations.

Regardless, the 9mm is a good round. But, the .45 ACP or .357 Magnum notwithstanding, it just seems to have been supplanted by calibers like the .40 S&W or .357 Sig as the latest "in" caliber. Personally, Id probably take a .45 ACP over all others. It, as far as I know, does not rely on higher pressures to be considered an extremely effective round. But, I still see much value in the 9mm. So, to me, its not that the 9mm is "bad"...its just that there are better.

Im sure you will find that there are as many opinions about the 9mm (including all of the other calibers) as there are about the guns that shoot them. Essentially, its all about what fits you best, what you shoot best and what you can most afford to shoot....often.

But, with all of this said, none of these would I choose over the old "standby"....the 12 gauge shotgun.

 

[Snobal]

I must confess that I am not a "gun writer."

...so what do I know?????

All I got to go on is shooting critters with various pistols/revolvers since the 1950's.

I have taken deer from coast-to-coast with revolvers.

I gave up on the 9mm when I saw that jack rabbits ran off to die when center-punched by by 9mm --- but .38 wadcutter and any revolver of .41 or bigger laid them out every time.

JMHO

 

[NavyGuy]

Armed Bear... I'm not calling you out or anything, but...

As I wrote above, energy overstates the importance of velocity. Momentum is probably more indicative of how hard of a "whack" the thing packs.

Can you show me where a 45 has more velocity than a .40?

 

[f4t9r]

Why do people hate the 9mm?

The reason I hate it is if you look at it upside down it looks like WW6
and when you go to pick up ammo they never have it.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

NavyGuy,

CorBon 230 grain ...over 1,000 fps

There are 40 loads that are a tad faster...but none of them use 230 grain bullets.

 

[NavyGuy]

NavyGuy,

CorBon 230 grain ...over 1,000 fps

There are 40 loads that are a tad faster...but none of them use 230 grain bullets.
Today 07:57 PM

If energy is a combination of mass and speed then why is the .45 always behind the .40 in the tables? I haven't seen the Corbon 230 grain ballistics, I just stick with regular walmart type ammo ballistics. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ at all, if there is something I'm missing please let me know.

 

[Ben86]

Most of the people hate the 9mm because of what they've heard from Bob behind the counter or Jim down the street. They don't actually know its performance on the street.

Is it as good of a manstopper as a .45? No. Is it far behind? Again, no. Yes, wider is better, but if you have to sacrifice a good chunk of velocity the end result just about evens out.

Some people also expect rifle like stopping power from their handgun and if they are using a 9mm and don't get it, it's because they used a 9mm. But if a .45 fails to stop as quickly as desired, "That was one tough SOB!"

 

[Ridgerunner665]

NavyGuy,
I'm going to eat my pizza.

Then I'll quote it word for word from Jim Carmichel...he explains it clearer than I can.

Give me a few minutes.

 

[markinmichiagn]

Because 9+19 is 28 not 45.

 

[NavyGuy]

Rifleman6555, I don't know if this was directed at me or not. I was the last one to post about the .40 so I assume so.

I have used 9mm handguns and sub guns in defense of my life in places you don't want to be.

I'll assume you defend our country in one way or another, for that alone I respect your opinion and perspective.

I muse at the Internet Ninjas who lambaste the 9mm and tout nothing less than 40 because they read about it in other internet sites or heard about it from another Ninja.

I really hope this isn't directed at me. I am not a internet ninja, I have no pics of me in full kit sporting an AR-15 and a katana.

They don't know any more about combat shooting then they do about forni.....well watch the movie Patton to get the rest of that speech.

Never been to a combat shooting course, or experienced it in real life, I hope I never have to. But, I do have two little trophy's at home that prove my history of fornication at least twice. I'm a guy who looked, researched and made a decision without a lot of money to spare. The best possible choice for my protection and money based on facts not opinion.

I know the 9mm will stop and will kill.

Me too. A .22 will stop and kill. So will a .380, .32, .45, .44, .357, 10mm, 50 BMG. None of them had what I was looking for in a handgun. Like I said before, my next handgun will be a 9mm, and I won't feel outgunned at all. But, for my first purchase, the .40 was the best possible choice for me. That's all. Just my opinion. Jeez guys, isn't that what this thread is all about, opinions? This just happens to be mine.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Before I get into all that though...I want to preface it with this:

Kinetic energy is not a great "yardstick" to measure a rounds effectiveness...I know its the popular way, but its far from the best way.

We would all be better served if ammo boxes came with the calculated momentum printed on them.

Another thing...most people already know this...

High velocity penetrates hard barriers...sectional density matters less and less as velocity increases.

But a slow moving round with a higher sectional density will plow through ALOT of meat and bone...much more than the light high velocity bullet (in most cases...nothing will make a liar out of you, while at the same time making you sound like an expert, quicker than discussing terminal ballistics, rifling twist, or how good your coon dog is)

 

[inSight-NEO]

But, for my first purchase, the .40 was the best possible choice for me. That's all. Just my opinion. Jeez guys, isn't that what this thread is all about, opinions? This just happens to be mine.

...and it is a good choice, no doubt. I personally prefer the .45 ACP. If I feel the need for more barrier penetration (not referencing the previous post, btw), Id probably go with the .40 S&W. For HD though, I feel the .45 ACP bests any other handgun round out there..all things considered (and when speaking practically). However, if I were LE, I would certainly consider switching to the .40 S&W. Outside of that, I just dont see the need.

 

[MMCSRET]

I don't "HATE" any caliber or cartridge. That said; has anyone ever heard of the 9X19 used as an accuracy cartridge in any kind of contest outside combat style shoots? I never have; thats why I tend to prefer 38 Special and 45 Auto. 9MM is fun, but I will cary something else.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Everything below this is a direct quote from Jim Carmichel...(and its the best comparison of 40 vs. 45 that I have ever seen)

Momentum is the force of a moving object that makes it want to keep pushing ahead, even when something is pushing it back. This figure tells how hard a bullet hits something and also gives an idea of how long it keeps pushing.

To illustrate, lets compare golf balls and ping pong balls. They are nearly identical in size, but if you roll them across a shag carpet at the same initial speed, the golf ball will continue to roll long after the ping pong ball has stopped. Though this comparison gets our thinking on the right track, it is unfair because the golf ball is heavier and has more energy. To equalize the test, we give the ping pong ball a lot more velocity so that the respective launch energies are equal. But the golf ball still rolls further through the shag carpet.
Thats when we realize that the golf ball has something more than just the force of its velocity, that there's something in its weight that makes it want to forge ahead...the same as it takes more energy to get a heavier bullet moving, its takes more to stop it.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

He goes on to say this:

When one considers momentum, one realizes that perhaps the "old school" of ballistic thought has more to offer than todays high velocity extremists would lead us to believe. To a certain extent, this is certainly the case, but don't put all your eggs in the momentum basket. Energy and momentum are easily formulated and we can use either one to prove just about any point we want to make.

(Hence my previous statement about lying and coon dogs)

 

[John_galt]

" ....ER teams prefer 9mm shootings...."

I'll leave the caliber arguments to others. But, as a physician I will comment on medicine. The above is wrong (to be polite). The most important thing I look at in a trauma is entry and, if there is one, exit wounds. In the terms used here - shot placement. What is hit matters far more than with what they are hit. When I teach the paramedic trauma lectures I tell them I want to know where anatomically someone is shot when they call in from the feild. If there is time to get weapon calibers and proximity, nice but not essential. Remember this "butter" you speak off so dismissively encases some really important "stuff." Little impotant things like vessels and nerves, to which the human body reacts poorly when insulted
with a bullet. I have seen 9mm GSW to the lower leg result in below the knee amputaion, because of the damage caused by shrapnel created by what was the tibia. This while the 9mm was passing through "butter." Until you get down to very small calibers, we don't have preference. Be it luck or skill, even very small calibers can be lethal depending on where a patient is shot.