Why do people hate the 9mm?

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Re: Why do people hate the 9mm ?

9 + 9 + 9 = Double tap to the chest, and one to the head !!!

Allergies:
Pet dander
Pennicillin
Milk products
Burning hot lead to chest and head

-HCrab

:D
 
Most of the people hate the 9mm because of what they've heard from Bob behind the counter or Jim down the street.

I overheard a customer in a gunshop say she preferred the feel of 9mm in Brand X (can't remember what brand X was), but her husband snidely commented something to the effect of "if you shoot a badguy between the eyes with that 9mm you will only make him angry, but if you shoot him with this .45 you will throw him back 10 feet". He left the part out about how if the badguy gets hit in the hand with the .45 it will tear his arm off and throw it back an additional 30 feet :scrutiny: . And if you had used a .44 Magnum, it was have set the hand on fire ... and a .500 would have vaporized the whole arm. :rolleyes:

Who knows? Most 9mm loads are, admittedly, mediocre man stoppers, but .38 special is even worse, and I don't see it singled out for nearly as much opprobrium as the 9mm.

<sigh>

How so? The time tested 38+P FBI load will reliably penetrate to the FBI's 12" minimum while also expanding. There are many other 38 loads out there that perform just as well or better. 38 just doesn't look all that great on paper, what with it's typically low kenetic energy. But as others have posted, kenetic energy really doesn't tell us much.

Placement and Penetration are the two most important factors for ammo/gun selection, IMO. Select a cartridge that has good penetration (be it a .38, 9mm, .40, 45 etc) but you can't hit the broad side of a barn with it, then you probably aren't going to be served well. On the other hand, select a load that you can precisely place but lacks penetration and you may also end up in trouble. So if one shoots .45 and 9mm equally well, and ammo cost is not a consideration, then .45 may be the better option. As I indicated, ammo cost does figure in for many of us, and the 9mm has a significant advantage there.

Of course, there are other factors that determine "stopping power". Psycology of the shoot-ee is a BIG one. So is the reliability of the chosen weapon. Confidence figures in too, so if you feel totally helpless with a 9mm, then you should probably pick something else; otherwise you may not perfom as confidently if the crap ever does hit the fan.

I carry .38 and .45 and feel equally undergunned with either - I'd prefer a rifle or shotgun, afterall :). Actually, the nod goes to .38 revolvers by a small margin, as that is what I shoot best and am most confident with. And I carry ammo that gives sufficient penetration, with the added bonus of reliable expansion. YMMV.
 
I love how these threads devolve into "I like heavy, slow/fast, light bullets better, so that's right." lol Truth is, being given the choice of standing in front of a motorcycle going 200mph, a car going 100 mph, and a school bus going 50 mph is a really crappy choice to have to make.
 
The truth is neither one. The truth is preference. The truth is get a rifle or a shotgun :)
 
I love how these threads devolve into "I like heavy, slow/fast, light bullets better, so that's right." lol Truth is, being given the choice of standing in front of a motorcycle going 200mph, a car going 100 mph, and a school bus going 50 mph is a really crappy choice to have to make.

Thanks, Ridgerunner665. I'll just wait here patiently for the truth to hit the fan.

All, please welcome the newest poster to THR, Tackleberry65! Otherwise known as my older brother. I actually called him up for your post Ridgerunner6555. He got all the brains in the family, and left me, the pissed off runt. Your post on the golf ball and ping pong ball threw me for a loop, and I didn't quite know what to make of it. Momentum brings something to the table that I never gave a thought to. The .45 wins there. Anyway, I'm on these forums because I love firearms and the sport of shooting, not because I think I know everything. I try to make that clear in every post, I'm here to learn and be better at what I like doing.

I still like the .40 over the .45 :p
 
There will always be a slow/heavy vs. light/fast argument (debate?) going on somewhere.

And there is very little "real" difference between a 40 and a 45...the only edge the 45 has is its momentum.

Well...that and it does not "KaBoom" as many Glocks (sorry...couldn't resist)
 
The Truth:

See post #74...that's as close as you're gonna get to the "truth" of the slow/heavy vs. light/fast argument.

It (#74) seems irrelevant hanging out there...but it is actually the whole point.
 
Only "KaIdiots" create "KaBooms" my friend.

Me? I love the 9mm.

I carry a G26 and my issue is the G17.

I am highly accurate with this caliber and can place multiple rounds on target in very short periods of time.
 
Did he just call me a KaIdiot?

Nowhere in this thread have I bashed the 9mm...I stated facts based on my own experience and that of a well respected shooter (Carmichel)
 
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" ....ER teams prefer 9mm shootings...."

I'll leave the caliber arguments to others. But, as a physician I will comment on medicine. The above is wrong (to be polite). The most important thing I look at in a trauma is entry and, if there is one, exit wounds. In the terms used here - shot placement. What is hit matters far more than with what they are hit. When I teach the paramedic trauma lectures I tell them I want to know where anatomically someone is shot when they call in from the feild. If there is time to get weapon calibers and proximity, nice but not essential. Remember this "butter" you speak off so dismissively encases some really important "stuff." Little impotant things like vessels and nerves, to which the human body reacts poorly when insulted
with a bullet. I have seen 9mm GSW to the lower leg result in below the knee amputaion, because of the damage caused by shrapnel created by what was the tibia. This while the 9mm was passing through "butter." Until you get down to very small calibers, we don't have preference. Be it luck or skill, even very small calibers can be lethal depending on where a patient is shot.



All -

Truer words were never spoke.

isher
 
it's funny how some gun show vendor told a customer, "you sure you want a 9mm? What the hell you gonna kill with it?"

I turned around to give him a *** look and he winked at me. seriously ***
 
While momentum is very important, it is also necessary to consider the sectional density of the round. That is largely where penetration comes into play.

Example: an MLB baseball traveling 65 mph and a 200-grain .45 slug have about the same momentum. What's the difference? One will penetrate flesh, one will not. That's an illustration of the importance of sectional density.

A lot of big momentum fans do not realize that 115, 124, and 147 grain 9mm bullets have almost the exact same sectional densities as .45 bullets in 185, 200, and 230 grain weights respectively, and in typical-for-caliber velocities, the 9mm delivers them faster. I just pointed out that bit about velocities as something to think about though, there are many more factors involved, and things are not that simple, but it tends to surprise some folks.
 
Can't everyone agree to disagree? There is no right answer. Both are widely used, both work well. The 9ers wont convince the 45ers, the 45ers won't convince the 9ers. It's a question with no answer. Can't well just get along? :neener:

We might as well debate the origins of the universe/time.
 
Good point...

147 grain XTP sectional density is .167 and the ballistic coefficient is .212

230 grain XTP is SD = .162, BC = .188

But the 45 displaces more tissue and just plain hits harder (by virtue of larger caliber and more momentum)

The 147 grain 9mm rounds are well known for overpenetrating...at around 1,000 fps, they punch right on through...not enough tissue displacement.

This will lead up to hydrodynamic effects...displacing water in a contained environment.

And BTW...I am not trying to argue with anybody here...just offering a little something to "stir" the discussion. I'm no expert, and I do have an opinion that is already well known.
 
I personally don't hate 9mm and own a wonder 9 myself (CZ P-01). But I prefer the 45ACP in a 1911. Either one will do the job if used properly but I don't think anyone could successfully argue that a 9mm is more lethal than a 45. The only argument ever used for 9mm is that it works with proper shot placement and is used successfully by the PD or Military holds more rounds is smaller and lighter and yes that's all true. But, frankly with any pistol shot placement is key even the .223 is quite a bit more powerful than either of these common pistol rounds and many find it a little less than desirable at times...would you hunt dear with 223?
 
To me, over-penetration just means there is capacity for more expansion without suffering under-penetration from a bullet design perspective. Check out some of the test results from the ATK seminars utilizing the Federal HST 147s. It's pretty reliable for around 12-14" of penetration and expansion from about .70-.80+" diameter. They reigned in that over-penetration with 2X expansion.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
 
My fav. is the fact that ammo is cheap and easy to get. And with the advancement of ammo lately you can get some really good ammo for the 9mm
 
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