A Hunters Perspective on Stopping Power

[Kachok]

We talk alot about stopping two legged predators with handguns, but few of us have ever had to learn first hand how effective our guns are. Hunter on the other hand use our bullets on a regular basis, here in Alabama for example we can hunt feral hogs year round, and a hunter could have many kill shots every year.
Many of us put alot of stock in the OGW formula (Optimal Game Weight) This gives us a comparison of relitative stopping power of different caliber in different weights.
I though it would be fun to apply this to handguns since the OGW formula takes momentum and not just KE into account when figuring killing power. Optimal Game weight is given in lbs. All the loads here are factory loads, I might make a list including full power hand loads later if you like.
I threw in a couple high power revolver loads for comparison.

.45ACP+P 230gr 950fps 68lbs
9mm+P 147gr 1175fps 53lbs
40S&W 200gr 1050fps 69lbs
357 Mag 158gr 1475fps 120lbs
10mm 180gr 1350fps 120lbs
380ACP+P 100gr 1125fps 21lbs
38 Specail+P158gr 945fps 32lbs
357 Sig 147gr 1325fps 75lbs
44 RemMag 240gr 1350fps 213lbs
454Casull 360gr 1425fps 563lbs

The OGW formula implies the weight of game you could achieve reliable, quick, ethical kills on. All OGW numbers are given at the muzzle since most shootouts happen at a 7 feet.

 

[Kachok]

The 40, 45, 357SIG and 9mm all ranked pretty close, the 10mm and 357mag were a large step above and the 454 showed what power is all about, although I doubt anyone here is man enough to use that as a personal defence round 380 and 38 Specal even the +P was pathetic in comparison. If there are any other rounds yall would like added to the list just let me know.

 

[Stringfellow]

9mm Mak? (Although I suspect it will be pretty similar to the .38 +P)

And of course .22. (How much does a squirrel weigh?)

Thanks for your help!

 

[MikePaiN]

Are you freakin' serious..???
So according to your OGW formula...shooting a person over 68lbs with a .45auto +P round would be ineffective for stopping or downing that person.....?

yea, nice chart but I'll stick to common sense.

 

[danez71]

No. Thats not what he said.

Focus a little more on....

OGW formula (Optimal Game Weight) This gives us a comparison of relitative stopping power of different caliber in different weights.

And

The OGW formula implies the weight of game you could achieve reliable, quick, ethical kills on.

Its used for hunting; not SD. Similar but different objectives.

Its been said many times that hand guns arnt really very good for SD and are under powered.

The OP is mearly using a formula & data normally applied to hunting (normally with rifles) and applying it to handguns.

Its kinda like data gathered from testing on lab rats in a controlled and scientific manner and appliying it to humans .

 

[Double Naught Spy]

All the formulas are nice and all, but none have any actual predictive capabilities on the abilities of the round to drop animals (including humans) without being able to control for shot placement and trajectory through the body.

 

[JTQ]

I think it is a good representation of just how close the typical auto pistol self defense rounds are.

In .40 S&W though, isn't the 200 grain round more of a handloader specialty? Don't most manufacturers use 180 grains as the heaviest round?

This table also illustrates that the typical self defense round is marginal, as we all know, but aren't often willing to admit.

My question always is this... When hunters use a round marginal for the task, why do they look for greater penetration to improve the performance of their chosen round, while personal defense users go for greater expansion?

 

[Mad Magyar]

I thought that Marshall & Sanow was the "Bible" on this sort of thing? Actually, I commend the OP on his data, but for some reason I understood the "ol-timers" better when it came to street-kills.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Or....the Taylor KO scale.

Only a few loads...

45acp +P, 255 grain cast bullet @ 950 fps...TKO = 15
45acp 230 grain bullet @ 850 fps...............TKO = 12
357 mag, 158 grain bullet @ 1, 475 fps.......TKO = 11

The 45acp +P also beats the 10mm in TKO...its TKO is 13.

Combine this with Marshall & Sanow's stats and see which matches up better with the actual results...the 357 and the 45 are the top 2 rounds there, and there is nothing to be said of 68 lbs being the limit for the 45acp or 120 lbs for the 357.

 

[Hangingrock]

Its theoretical abstract only if it were that simple.:banghead:

 

[Ridgerunner665]

It is that simple...

It goes like this...

The slower a bullet is moving the bigger it needs to be to kill (penetrate, disrupt tissue...you know, generally mess things up)

Big bullets moving slow have been killing things for 100's of years...the only thing a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet accomplishes is flattening the trajectory...and there is something to be said for that...but that does not mean a 45 caliber pistol won't kill any thin skinned game...and kill it clean.

It comes back around to the shooter...not the gun.

 

[huntsman]

If there are any other rounds yall would like added to the list just let me know.

I'd like to see what a 170gr .30/30 and 1oz shotgun slug looks like to compare to the 454 and 500 pistol cartridges.

 

[Hangingrock]

Ridgerunner665: It is that simple...

This is some thing we’ll have to agree to disagree on in regards to the 45ACP and the Taylor Knock Down Theory.

Having witnessed and applied the 1911/45ACP in a military combat application I’m of the opinion that the 45ACP can range from effective to non-effective for immediate stopping of hostilities. The impression made on me was supplementing the pistol with a rifle is no guarantee either but the stopping probability factor is better. I’m not much for theory or one shot stops.

 

[Kachok]

To those freaking out over the 45 not having a 1,000 OGW rating please remember this number was intended for guaging rapid kills on game anamals of the specified weight. Human targets are nowhere near as tough as a feral hog (or deer, or elk) pound for pound neither our phisical construction nor our mental toughness is on par with the anamals we hunt. This is a relitive comparison only not saying that a 45ACP cannot kill anything over 68lbs.
The TKO formula is NONSENCE!! I have proven this several times before and would be GLAD to do it again. According to TKO a 2oz beachball moving at 10 fps is more deadly then a 30-06!! A pitchers fastball is 4 times more deadly then a 375 H&H magnum!! The entire formula revolves around the diamiter of the projectile which is BS in my book, the day a .45GAP creates more soft tissue damage then my 6.5x55 I WILL EAT IT!! TKO is a formula for big bore fanatics that blindly accept it as fact and will argue it as if it were scientific, it is NOT. There are advantages to a lager caliber but nothing near what the TKO factor would lead you to beleve. The #1 advantage of larger calibers is they tipicaly shoot heavier bullets, which means more momentum per ft/lbs of energy, OGW formula is based around momentum as well it does not just assume twice the diamiter means twice the damage like TKO does.

 

[LiveLife]

Good thread.

I believe hunters with actual real-life firsthand experience have much to offer as to how ballistics of different calibers/bullet weights vary.

Really interested in effects of pistol bullets on different size/weight animals.

 

[Kachok]

Just to add another experenced oppinion about the TKO factor here is what Chuck Hawks a well respected wrighter on all things gun and game had to say.
"The horrific error in putting your faith in either kinetic energy or a Taylor Knock-Out value should be obvious. If you believe in TKO, a 12 gauge Foster slug is 13 times more deadly than a .223 Remington, almost four and one half times as lethal as a 30-30, and over 350% more deadly than a .308."

 

[HKGuns]

As it should be.....Have you ever seen what a 12GA slug will do to something? I'd almost certainly rather be hit by a .223 than a 12GA slug....druthers would be to stay hole free though in almost any circumstance.

 

[Kachok]

True a 12ga slug does do more damage then a 223, not 13 times the damage mind you but more none the less. The slug makes much more energy no matter how you look at it. The slug does NOT however make more soft tissue damage then the .308 not with any decent SP anyway. I can show you side by side balistics tests that prove that beyond any shadow of a doubt, all done on the same ballistics gel at the same temparature in the same lab. for TKO to say it is three and a half times more effective while making a smaller temporary wound cavity, smaller permanate wound cavity, less shock, and have less penatration is absolutly stupid.

 

[Hangingrock]

Kachok:Human targets are nowhere near as tough as a feral hog (or deer, or elk) pound for pound neither our phisical construction nor our mental toughness is on par with the anamals we hunt.

I’m not prepared to agree with the entirety of that statement. Should you have a run in with the wrong individual that has tenacity and wants to take you with him then your opinion on toughness may undergo a revaluation. That’s if you survive the encounter.

 

[Kachok]

I am speaking of avrage human vs avrage anamal, not PCP crazed junkie that thinks you are satan. For them the 40, 45, 9mm are all way undergunned, get a 12ga with 3" magnum buckshot or a 454 with rapid expanding bullets for somthing that crazed. If you want to quickly drop someone ot something with an insaine amount of adrenaline/drugs running through his vains you need to cause a dramatic amount of tissue damage/blood loss/shock very quickly. The avarage handgun owner simply cannot handle that kind of recoil to produce "shock kills".

 

[Shadow 7D]

And now I shall point out a small flaw

ALL THESE FORMULA FAIL TO TAKE SHOT PLACEMENT INTO ACCOUNT

and that is the most important factor in every shot, every time, so long as the round penetrate to an adequate depth, A BB will kill you when properly placed.:banghead:

 

[Kachok]

Shot placement is a given. If you cannot do that right it does not matter if you hit him with a 22LR or a 20mm cannon. We are talking center mass soft tissue damage here.

 

[therewolf]

The game/weight ratio also fails to take into account average distance for SD. (@ 3yards)

Most game is generally taken at 50 yards or more.

Interesting food for thought. I've got 17 shot in my 9mm, so if I put three
accurate rounds on target, x53 lbs. game weight, I should be able, by the OP's table, to down a 159lb. animal. With the .45ACP, 2 rounds would net 136lbs.
Less recoil, and more accurate shooting(faster bullet), could tip the balance of the scale to the lighter caliber round, given a standard 8 round .45 magazine.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The TKO formula is NONSENCE!!

And the OGW isn't? Gimme a break.

 

[rcmodel]

It's interesting to note that using the OGW Formula on the old 45-70 Gov 405 grain @ 1,330 shows an optimum game weight of 289 pounds at 200 yards.

Tell that to the vast Bison / Buffalo herds the market hunters wiped out in the 1800's.

A full grown bull Buffalo weighs upwards of 2,000 pounds.

I'd say there is a serious flaw in the formula.

rc