A Hunters Perspective on Stopping Power

[Kachok]

Shotguns are a real showstopper I don't care what they are high on. 1oz 12ga slug @ 1513fps has a OGW of 992lbs!! That said I like buckshot better. 15 times more likley to hit spine/heart/head and cause a instant or near instant drop. Sadly they cannot make a shotgun (or 454) that is suitable for personal carry unless you wear a bulky trench coat, and even if they could the recoil from a sub-compact 12ga would be almost as bad as being on the buisness end of it

 

[McCall911]

OGW formula (Optimal Game Weight) This gives us a comparison of relitative stopping power of different caliber in different weights.

That's just it. Caliber (bullet diameter) is entirely absent from the OGW formula. That formula can be found here.

http://www.biggameinfo.com/OptGameWgt.aspx

And it's discussed more critically on Rathcoombe's page here.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/myths.html#ogw

To paraphrase Rathcoombe, the OGW formula is basically momentum (ft-lbs/sec) times energy (sort of) multiplied by some constant. It has no reference to caliber.

So here's just one of my problems with the OGW: Without a known bullet diameter, it wouldn't be possible to estimate potential penetration. And penetration is one factor which I think everyone can agree is vital to potential stopping power. So basically, IMO, the OGW is at best severely lacking.

 

[Kachok]

I would MUCH rather be using a formula that only took the weight of the projectile into account then one that put WAY to much emphsis on the diamaiter or the projectile. My tiny 6.5x55 ranks horable on the TKO scale because of it's very small .264cal bullets, but in reality those bullets are very heavy for caliber 140-160gr are moving at 2600-2750fps, and that does 20 times the damage of any 45ACP bullet!! The chest cavity of deer is reduced to pulp, and exit wounds range from the size of a golf ball, all the way to grapefurit sized. Not 1 anamal has ever made it out of sight with that little pole launcher, most go nighty night on impact. Modern expanding bullets make the TKO factor more worthless then it was in the past which was already pretty darn bad. If anyone here needs to be cured of that nonsence I have a very detailed thread compleatly debunking the TKO formula on the rifle page.

 

[McCall911]

Actually, I misspoke. It isn't bullet diameter which is important to penetration, it's the bullet's surface area which is important. Sometimes this is directly related to bullet diameter, sometimes it isn't. In the case of flat-point handgun bullets, which are known for penetration, it's generally the meplat diameter which matters. (With some limitations.)
Just wanted to clear that up, FWIW, in case someone thought I was placing too much emphasis on bullet diameter...

 

[vsteel]

Well might as well throw in my two cents...

1. I think way to much importance is given to the absolute values of weight of the animals in the original post. They need to be looked at as a relative comparison. The formula is for hunting, while there are accounts of elephants being killed with 22lr it doesn't mean it is a good idea or easily achievable. If you read Peter Capstick you can find that there are accounts of 700 nitro rounds not killing cape buffalo first shot because it hit the skull and was deflected instead of penetrating because of the angle between the bullet and the skull.

2. I personally like the momentum values of bullets to compare. I don't care for kinetic energy because to much emphasis is on velocity. What about diameter? Just take a look at a 9mm vs 45 acp. Really there are just fractions of an inch between them. Calculate the frontal surface area of a person and then calculate the percentage of each as a fraction and see what the real differences are. (area of person / area of bullet) You can do the same with weight. Until you get to the extreme edge of the spectrum (22lr vs 50 BMG) you are talking about very very small percentage differences. If all of the time people spent worrying about which cartridge is better was spent at the range shooting, they would be much better off.

3. The talk is really just academic because there are just too many variables to come up with the perfect formula. What is the weight of the attacker, what angle did you shoot him at, hit a bone or not, how thick of clothing? Anything in the way like a layer of drywall or a 2X4? How physically fit? what is the mind set of the attacker? Prosthetic device so the great leg shot you just hit him with didn't do anything. Anything cause the bullet to over expand or not expand? While I do enjoy talking about this stuff, lets not take ourselves too serious.

4. Buffalo toughness versus human toughness. Pound for pound not even in the same ballpark. Even if the person is drugged up and deranged, still not even close.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Here's your problem, Kachok,

A Hunters Perspective on Stopping Power

We talk alot about stopping two legged predators with handguns, but few of us have ever had to learn first hand how effective our guns are. Hunter on the other hand use our bullets on a regular basis, here in Alabama for example we can hunt feral hogs year round, and a hunter could have many kill shots every year.

The OGW formula implies the weight of game you could achieve reliable, quick, ethical kills on.

You seem to think that your OGW formula that is ostensibly used to know the weight of game that quick, ethical kills can be made on by a given cartridge somehow equates with stopping power on humans in regard to self defense and that somehow being from Alabama and being able to hunt hogs all year long gives you superior insight on stopping power effectiveness of handguns. These things just don't jive.

Nowhere have you shown that your OGW can be translated into stopping power, though you have implied this to be the case because you want people to know how effective their guns are based on OGW. You don't seem to realize that stopping power does not have to involve death, quick or otherwise.

What you have presented is not a hunter's perspective on stopping power. What you have presented is OGW and OGW is not a calculation for stopping power.

BTW, we can hunt pigs here in Texas all year long too. It can be done in AR, LA, MI, FL, and a bunch of other states. We get to use our bullets on a regular basis as well.

 

[LiveLife]

Those that hunt feral hogs, anyone test out effectiveness of pistol rounds on them (say 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP)?

Can you take them down with a single shot or do they require multiple shots?

What's been the experience as an effective pistol round for taking down a feral hog?

 

[CraigC]

Modern expanding bullets make the TKO factor more worthless then it was in the past which was already pretty darn bad.

After all this discussion, you still don't get it, even though you claim to understand.

TKO IS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED TO COMPARE HIGH VELOCITY, SMALL BORE RIFLE CARTRIDGES. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!! TO DO SO IS TO USE IT INCORRECTLY. THE NUMBERS ARE SKEWED AND IRRELEVANT!!!!! HOW MUCH MORE CLEARLY MUST IT BE STATED?????

 

[Harley Quinn]

Here are a few links for the information about Taylor KO

The TKOF has no physical meaning or scientific basis and is strictly used as a figure of merit for comparing cartridges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

http://www.reloadammo.com/tkofactor2.htm

Calculate...
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

This is some information been discussed before here...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=9274

 

[Kachok]

What do I not get Craig?? Hu? Tell me because I have just given example after example on several threads and you come out with some nonsence blanket statement like that. I have not just explained my position but given scientific studies to back it which is a heck of alot more then you have done. PLEASE make a point or go away.
Thanks Harley I have already read those, I read alot about terminal ballistics
Question for you Spy if stopping power is not a messure of tissue damage leading to rapid blood loss, how do you describe it? Do you beleve in "Knockdown" that is another bogus myth that I would be happy to bust as well, although the Mythbusters did a great example of it.

 

[Harley Quinn]

This one just got closed up/locked down

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=562084

It is about TKO...A "Technical Knock Out" did it in

Regards

 

[harrygunner]

Need more physicists around here.

The "Optimum Game Weight" formula is nothing but momentum multiplied by kinetic energy with a scale factor thrown in.

It's a heuristic model, makes no physical sense. Just indicates use more of each as the animal's weight increases.

 

[Kachok]

Yeah that is the idea. There is no magic bullet that kills like lighting with no mass/momentum/energy. You have to have those things in order to make soft tissue damage, the more the better. Now I will say that some cartrages tend to put it all together a little better then others, but the fact remains that energy/momentum can be messured and assuming proper terminal performance they do determine the amount of this damage. There is nothing magic about the 45ACP vs 40 S&W, one has more energy the other has more momentum, in terms of terminal ballistics you would be hard pressed to find any real difference between the two. 10mms and 357s are a step above by any rating system other then TKO. The 454 is a huge step up in killing power, but just not practical for carrying around or shooting unless you are superman.
Yeah I saw they closed my Debunking the TKO myth thread. I figured they would, too many big bore die hards take offence to anyone debunking their nonsence. Don't get me wrong I love a 444 lever gun as much as the next guy but the day TKO makes a 45 ACP that drops 400lbs hogs like my 6.5x55 I will eat it!

 

[rocky1]

Those that hunt feral hogs, anyone test out effectiveness of pistol rounds on them (say 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP)?

Can you take them down with a single shot or do they require multiple shots?

What's been the experience as an effective pistol round for taking down a feral hog?

45 ACP - 230 grain FMJ Ball ammo - shot the hog quartering away - from the seat of my tractor - estimated range 20 - 25 yards (it was a lung shot, just missed the heart) - 150 lb hog - 1 shot - she ran maybe 120 yards before tipping over.

I ain't buyin OGW or TKO, if your shot hits the kill zone, they die without medical care.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Shot placement is the key, if you would have hit the heart, might have run only 60 yards If you hit the kill zone the Dr. could be there and pronounce, it is dead!

45 ACP - 230 grain FMJ Ball ammo - shot the hog quartering away - from the seat of my tractor - estimated range 20 - 25 yards (it was a lung shot, just missed the heart) - 150 lb hog - 1 shot - she ran maybe 120 yards before tipping over.

I ain't buyin OGW or TKO, if your shot hits the kill zone, they die without medical care.

 

[CraigC]

What do I not get Craig??

Because even though you are presented with the FACT that TKO is not appropriate for comparing high velocity, small bore cartridges and/or expanding bullets to anything. You continue to do so and use those skewed, irrelevant numbers to cry foul on the forumula. A clear lack of understanding.

My tiny 6.5x55 ranks horrible(sp) on the TKO scale.....Modern expanding bullets make the TKO factor more worthless then it was in the past which was already pretty darn bad.

Blaming TKO for the idiots who use it wrong is about like blaming guns for crime. It is illogical but not unexpected as most people these days put their brains in neutral and operate on emotion alone.

 

[Harley Quinn]

To put it another way from a source (link) I have already posted...

None of these methods truly consider bullet construction, with the exception of TKO, which dealt mainly with solid bullets. An expanding bullet, for example, may have better "stopping" power over another design, due to the it's energy transfer as the jacket opens, even though it may be traveling at a lower velocity. Just as a large diameter solid, at low velocity may have better "stopping" power, due to its deep penetration, than a small diameter hollowpoint at max velocity.

Bullet shape does not factor in these methods either. Example: A solid, wide flat nosed bullet, may create more impact damage, than a solid, pointed or round nosed bullet of the same caliber at the same velocity.

These variables combine to effect bullet penetration, and tissue damage, in different ways. Thus making a simple, single method of bullet effectiveness, difficult to quantify.

 

[918v]

I don't think you can compare the effectiveness of cartriges on people vs animals.

For one thing, we are not talking about hunting people, but stopping an attack. There is a world of difference between shooting an unaware/unarmed person in the back from 100 yards away and shooting an attacker wielding a deadly weapon. Similarly, there is a huge difference between stopping a charging animal and one that is minding it's own business.

Basic hunting requires a round that penetrates deep enough to bleed the animal out. To shock a big game animal to death would require a small cannon. We simply do not have the capability to explode big game like a 22-250 explodes a prairie dog. We shoot the animal, it flees, bleeds out and dies.

A charging animal is a whole different thing. There is a reason why people shoot lions and leopards with elephant guns.

By that standard, the only reasonable round to stop a human attack is a 12 gauge with slugs or 00 buck.

Concealable pistols are not powerful to do the job all the time. They rely on psychology more than anything else. If you miss the heart or the brain, and the turd is hell bent on killing you, he will continue to try to kill you. You can't expect your 9mm or 45 to drop people like in the movies. You can only hope the turd turns around and runs.

 

[LiveLife]

918v, very good post.

 

[Casefull]

I have shot a casull for 20 years and most of the pistol calibers mentioned in this thread. I can assure you the pig would not have ran anywhere had it been hit anywhere other than a lower leg. It gets tedious how so many think the average handgun is powerful...they are not.

 

[Kachok]

Craig if you yourself admit that TKO is not capable of comparing high speed and low speed cartrages, then what use is it? The value that it gives is no more accurate then a wild guess at best. TKO is like a dyno that rates an engine on the bore of it's cylinders and not the actual output.
Jank on my spelling all you want, I can pass for a native in more countries and in more languages then you will EVER know.

 

[rocky1]

Shot placement is the key, if you would have hit the heart, might have run only 60 yards If you hit the kill zone the Dr. could be there and pronounce, it is dead!

Or, if I'd been shooting hollowpoints, so that the wound channel was larger through the lungs, it is likely she would not have gone that far. Went to town and bought them that afternoon. Haven't had the 45 at my side since, aside from the one I tried to shoot in the dark and missed.

 

[CraigC]

Craig if you yourself admit that TKO is not capable of comparing high speed and low speed cartrages, then what use is it?

One more time, it is used to compare big bore cartridges firing heavyweight, non-expanding bullets.....to each other. Anything from revolver cartridges to the classic stopping rifle cartridges. No, we're usually not worried about knocking out elephants but TKO correlates nicely with a cartridge's ability to penetrate deeply and break large bones.

TKO is like a dyno that rates an engine on the bore of it's cylinders and not the actual output.

No, it rates a cartridges propensity to knock out an elephant and puts FAR more importance on weight and diameter (not just diameter, read son) than velocity like your vaunted OGW foolishness. Bullet diameter and mass are constants, velocity is the most rapidly diminishing factor and high velocity is not required to get the job done. Obviously.

...I can pass for a native in more countries and in more languages then you will EVER know.

How that's relevant I have no idea.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The 45-70 is a good one to look at for a moment...

After the Sandy Hook tests of 1879, a new variation of the .45-70 cartridge was produced, the .45-70-500, which fired a heavier 500 grain (32.5 g) bullet. The heavier 500-grain (32 g) bullet produced significantly superior ballistics, and could reach ranges of 3,350 yards (3,120 m), which were beyond the maximum range of the .45-70-405. While the effective range of the .45-70 on individual targets was limited to about 1,000 yards (915 m) with either load, the heavier bullet would produce lethal injuries at 3,500 yards (3,200 m). At those ranges, the bullets struck point-first at roughly a 30 degree angle, penetrating 3 one inch (2.5 cm) thick oak boards, and then traveling to a depth of 8 inches (20 cm) into the sand of the Sandy Hook beach*. It was hoped the longer range of the .45-70-500 would allow effective volleyed fire at ranges beyond those normally expected of infantry fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70

 

[Kachok]

I have been saying since the get go that the TKO is not suitable for guaging soft tissue damage, that is proven over and over and over, I won't get into the debate over weather or not it is a good guage to knock out an elephant, because I would not know of what I am speaking, just as Craig knows not of what he is speaking now. I will tell you however that in broad spectrum comparison OGW is much more accurate to what North American hunters need, and the formula created by Chuck Hawks might be even more accurate then that. Besides even if TKO was a good guage for knockouts on elephants that really has nothing at all to do with the stopping power of handguns aginst two legged predators.
BTW Craig if I was your "son" I think I would eat one of these bullets, and spare myself the agony of being related to you. Thankfuly that is not possable seeing as I suspect I am much older then you.