A Hunters Perspective on Stopping Power

[Kachok]

1st the OGW is not perfect no one formula is, but it is a thousand times better then that absolutly stupid TKO formula, that has nothing to do with reality much less science. 2nd the OGW of a 405gr at 200 yards is over 500lbs. 3rd the OGW is for quick ethical kills, you can kill a bison with a 9mm pistol at range, it just won't be a quick death and these morons who were wiping out the American bison population for FUN were sure not worried about quick humane kills DID YOU EVER THINK OF THAT?

 

[Kachok]

Do the math for yourself. According to TKO a 12ga 437gr slug has a TKO value of 66.12. A 338 Lapua shooting 250gr bullets at 3000fps has a TKO of only 36. Do you REALLY think a crappy lead slug is anywhere near as powerful much less almost TWICE the power of a 338 Lapua??? If you are that dense then there is no hope for you at all. Do you really think little .45 handgun has anywhere near the power of the legendary 6.5x55? Does a pitchers fastball have as much power as a .50BMG??? The simple anwser is no to all of the above. The TKO formula is nonsence no matter how you look at it. I can site a hundred examples where the TKO is not just wrong but so wrong it is funny, OGW may not be perfect put it won't ever tell you that a 2oz beach ball at 15fps is a suitable weapon for elephant hunting.

Another quote from a man with WAY more hunting experence than any of us

Hunters can be creatures of sheep-like habits, relying far too much on anecdotal evidence that is no competent evidence at all. We also like to place far, far too much value on our personal experiences. A tragic example of that is remittance man John Taylor and his antique and severely misguided "Taylor Knock-Out Value." Prolific poacher "Pondoro" Taylor had his mind made up before his TKO values were constructed. Setting aside science and common sense, Taylor promogulated peculiar, unfounded theories that still persist to this day. Poaching may be accoladed in some circles, but it seems unlikely to win a Nobel prize anytime soon.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Double Naught Spy and rcmodel...Thank You both for saying what you said so I wouldn't have to.

Kachok,
You made my point for me too...OGW says the 45acp won't kill a large dog at 10 feet (which is pure hogwash), TKO says a beach ball will kill Moby Dick (which is also hogwash)...thats one point I was making...formulas are all BS.

I'm not trying to fight with you, I'm simply trying to make you think...but first you'll need an open mind.

You keep mentioning something that has far more to do with killing than you are giving it credit for...that is momentum.

If you punch a big enough hole through the right place (vitals) any animal that is or ever has walked this earth will die in short order.

I've killed lord knows how many deer and black bear (no brag, just fact)...and of all those animals I lost one...the reason was the shot placement was bad, I shot low because the buck was only about 10 feet away (trying for a heart shot, didn't allow for scope height). The round used was a 25-06, the deer was badly wounded but I tracked him for 2 miles...until the blood trail dried up, and another mile or so using the old time methods of tracking...I lost him...it sucks, but I did it.

45-70...500 lbs....LMAO, now thats funny. (you can be enlightened on the 45-70 on MarlinOwners forum, a few there have killed some REALLY big critters with the ole 45-70...and killed em clean, smacked in the dirt clean)

I'm done with this before I get in trouble, but you should really think about what I (and others) have said.

 

[Justin Holder]

I agree that all these formulas are silly and pointless, it all goes back to common sense, I don't need some formula to tell me a 180gr. JHP 10mm is more effective at killing a 150 pound deer than a 125gr. JHP 38 special.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

It's interesting to note that using the OGW Formula on the old 45-70 Gov 405 grain @ 1,330 shows an optimum game weight of 289 pounds at 200 yards.

Tell that to the vast Bison / Buffalo herds the market hunters wiped out in the 1800's.

A full grown bull Buffalo weighs upwards of 2,000 pounds.

I'd say there is a serious flaw in the formula.

I guess that sort of proves the OGW is NONSENSE as well. Funny how that works.

 

[Kachok]

1st of all Ridgerunner I never said that the 45 would not kill anything over 68 lbs quit putting fracking words in my mouth. That is considerd the optimal weight for a quick ethical kill which implies a reasonable level of overkill NOT the minimum, if you actualy read what I said you would know that!! 2nd the OGW with the 45-70 is well above 289lbs, and those were not quick ethical kills like I said before Spy. Those kills for the most part were for sick sport by a bunch of people that history rightfuly reguards as morons. Try reading for once before you start blasting me.

 

[Kachok]

Besides if the 45-70 was such a GREAT 500-1000yd Bison thwacker why does nobody use them for that purpose today? Because it is cruel and stupid, even the die hard supporters of the 45-70 recomend you keep shots to within 150 yards. Are bullets just not as effective today? Have big game anamals gotten tougher? No it was stupid then and it is stupid now PERIOD.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Well...if you must ask.

They don't use the 45-70 because they don't make a mil-dot scope with enough adjustment in the turrets to dial in that big ole boolit...thats why.

Its got nothing to do with its killing capability...you have heard of the Sandy Hook tests, right?

How many boards would a 200 grain bullet from a 300 Win Mag penetrate at 3,500 yards? Not many, if any...it would be all out of momentum by the time it got there...but that big ole 500 grain bullet dropping out of orbit still packs a punch.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm ...and those were black powder loads, todays smokeless loads are far more powerful.

 

[Kachok]

By my ballistics calculator the 300 win mag with 210gr VLD is still packing 37lbs of momentum at 1500. The max load 45-70 drops off the chart at 1125yd. I like my heavy flat point solids but at any range over 500 yards you simply cannot beat ultra high BC VLDs

 

[Justin Holder]

"those were not quick ethical kills"

Were you there? That's a pretty broad statement, representing "millions" of animals.

For someone promoting a supposedly scientific formula, you sure made a quick switch to making emotionally fueled statements.

 

[Kachok]

OK let me clarify. That is the level of speed/energy/momentum to create a wound canal larger enough to humanly kill an avrage anamal of that size either by shock or rapid bloodloss. Larger wound canals do more damage to organs and rupture more blood blood vesles. I hate to sound like a know it all, but the concept is really not that hard to understand. If you shoot a moose in the boiler room with a 9mm pistol chances are you are not going to cause enough blood loss to kill him within seconds or mabey even minutes, heck he might die a week later from infection. But shoot him in the boiler room with a 375 H&H 300gr SP and you will cause a dramatic amount of soft tissue damage, shocking the organs causing rapid almost instant fatal blood loss. THAT is a humane kill. come on guys is it really that hard? A 45 cal solid bullet at long range will be traveling very slow, reducing the size of the wound dramaticly, it can reach the vital organs but won't cause enough shock or blood loss for a quick death. if you got run through with a #4 rebar wou could no doubt die, but you will slowly bleed out unless it runs through your head or spine. A very slow moving heavy 45 cal bullet is not much different when you think about it.

 

[Action_Can_Do]

They weren't ethical kills. At least, not by modern standards. If you've ever read about that point in time, you'll see that the way people hunted was quite different. Nowadays, hunters pride themselves on one-shot kills. Excellent bullets and high quality rifles allow for this. 150 years ago it was a different story. It wasn't unusual for a hunter to shoot a game animal 6 or more times before it dropped. It was pretty much, shoot until it runs out of range or dies.

 

[Marshall]

Good info.

Kinda falls right in line with what I have learned and experienced in real life hunting over 30+ years. Doesn't tell me much new but good to have a data backup.

Thanks a lot!

 

[LiveLife]

< waving hand >

Hey guys, this is the "Handguns: Autoloaders" category and I think the OP started out as pistol stopping power discussion.

Could I kindly ask that we return to "pistol stopping power" discussion?

Thanks!

 

[Kachok]

By my calculations these legendary 500 yard shots with an old 405gr 45-70 would impact in the mid 800fps range well below the range of any resonable shock. Put things in proportion on a 2,000lbs bison that would be less lethal then a 200lbs human being struck by a 22 short. There is no way that would cause a quick humane death unless the head heart or spine were hit directly, THINK ABOUT IT.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

It has become painfully clear that you are the one who needs to think about it...

The 22 short does not have the momentum of a 500 grain bullet travelling over 800 fps...that will punch a 1/2" hole through heart/liver/lungs/brain...and it will kill just as quick as any 300 uber magnum.

Bullet weight, momentum, bullet diameter, penetration...no matter if it was only doing 30 mph, if the bullet penetrates (and the 45-70 will penetrate) and puts a hole through the vitals...the animal will die, much the same as if it were shot with an arrow.

Back to shot placement...we're going in circles...LOL.

And bds has a point...but were on the same subject, the boolits just got bigger...and so did the animals. In relation though the point I'm making is the same for all rounds discussed.

We're just beating the old dead horse...slow and heavy vs. light and fast...gun nuts have been arguing over this for years.

I just wish we were all circled around a campfire at hunting camp...I can see a lot of beer getting consumed while we discuss this.

 

[CraigC]

Kachok, before you get any more bent outta shape, I would suggest you actually educate yourself on who is using the TKO factor, exacting 'what' it was originally intended to be used for. Maybe throttle back on the caffiene and the calculator.


The OGW is obviously seriously flawed. I know of a certain sixgun hunter who took his five-shot .45Colt Seville (loaded with 360gr LBT's) to Africa and reported several feet of penetration on Cape buffalo. He would probably disagree with your reported 500lb OGW rating on the 360gr .454 load.

By my calculations these legendary 500 yard shots with an old 405gr 45-70 would impact in the mid 800fps range well below the range of any resonable shock. Put things in proportion on a 2,000lbs bison that would be less lethal then a 200lbs human being struck by a 22 short.

That right there is the biggest bunch of horse hockey I have heard.....this week. We KNOW that a .44Spl, .44Mag or .45Colt launching a 250gr cast bullet at 900fps will fully penetrate any deer that walks from virtually any angle. So, double the weight, same velocity, you'll get the same effect on buffalo.

 

[LiveLife]

Good information so far - I am taking notes.

I realize the rifle bullet ballistics information has merit, but my interest in this thread is for the long standing discussions on various threads regarding the effects of pistol bullets, specifically when fired from short barreled pistols that reduce the terminal velocity.

My concern is that many take the ballistics data that were obtained using fullsize barrels and transferring them to short barreled compacts. Many may argue that there is not that much drop in velocity to worry. But I worry because we may not know the factual performance of pistol bullets at reduced velocities.

Well, as already discussed in this thread, loss of velocity translates to loss of energy. Smaller caliber lighter JHP bullets (380Auto, 9mm) depend on velocity to expand the bullet on impact and do damage. With loss of velocity, I am even concerned what this will result for 40S&W/45ACP.

I see the statements like, "I feel confident with my short barreled 380Auto or subcompact 9mm." This is The High Road. What facts or data are we basing these statements on? I certainly do not hope someone new won't keep reading these statements and actually end up shooting a big bad guy with small caliber subcompact only to find out nothing significant happens.

I am hoping this thread will shed some realistic light on this discussion. What do low energy pistol bullets shot from short barreled compacts/subcompact actually accomplish? I thought the discussion of shooting man sized and smaller animal did a lot to demonstrate the effectiveness or lack of effectiveness of pistol rounds.

For me, I consider pistol bullets shot from even fullsize barrels mediocre in performance to drop a human attacker in their tracks when bullets hit less vital parts of the body. Isn't that why we cry "shot placement" so much? I have talked to people who have seen people shot COM and move like nothing hit them. Of course, the loss of blood will eventually slow them down, but they can do a lot of damage to you until then. For me, SOP will be to shoot my Glock 27 and keep shooting until the threat is down or I need to reload.

OK, back to OP.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The 380 rarely expands...most bullets for it are poorly designed being the main reason, low velocity is the other, and it doesn't carry enough momentum to be a good penetrator...it can and will kill, but it just ain't got enough of anything to be good at it.

If I had to choose a round to get shot with...I'd probably pick a 380. (not that I want to have to make that decision)

40 and 45...both of these sometimes will not expand either, even if the velocity is where it should be, again its the bullet design (HST not included...they expand)...the nose clogs up in clothing or wood and you get what is, in effect, a solid bullet...but the 45acp WILL penetrate, the heavier the bullet the better. The 40 lags just behind the 45 here, a little less weight, a little less penetration (their sectional density is nearly the same) but it will still penetrate pretty good.

What will a 230 grain 45acp bullet do at 700 fps (short barrel)? It will penetrate...might expand...probably won't, but even if it don't expand it will cause a pretty bad fluid leak in whatever you shot with it.


On bare flesh (such as deer)...I have never seen the 45acp fail to expand, even XTP's.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I left out the 9mm didn't I...sorry, I'm not a fan, but I have owned a few.

The 9mm is capable of moving up a notch on the 380...it is capable of enough velocity to cause rapid expansion (115's and 124's), the +P and +P+ loads are better.

Some disagree...but I still think the 147 grain bullets are best. I'll give you one guess why I feel that way.

 

[LiveLife]

There was an article of an actual shooting by two officers at the same target in a gun magazine I read like 10-15 years ago.

Two officers were confronted by an armed attacker inside a house. They both fired. One shot a 5" 1911 230 gr FMJ and the other a Beretta 92 with 115 gr JHP. The 45ACP FMJ bullet remained in the body transferring all energy to the target while the 9mm JHP bullet was found 15 feet beyond the body (the attacker died on scene).

This account disturbed me. Having been in the service just prior to the 45ACP to 9mm conversion, I was told the 9mm was an effective round, especially in JHP. In this real life shooting, the old and slow 45ACP FMJ round nose did what it was designed to do - transferring all energy to stop the attacker. The newer and faster 9mm JHP round did expand, but over penetrated the body and failed to fully transfer the energy to the attacker. The article did state that if the 9mm bullet had hit more denser part of the body, it may not have over penetrated the body. The article also raised the concern that had two officers both fired 9mm bullets, the attacker may not have been dropped in his tracks.

Over the past decades, we have seen the shift from 9mm to 40S&W/45ACP by law enforcement agencies. I talked to several Sheriff Deputies who have worked 20+ years and their first hand shooting accounts verify that 40S&W rounds are more effective than 9mm rounds they replaced. Yes, 40S&W recoil is more firmer/snappier, but they are all willing to compromise the recoil in exchange for greater terminal damage. I also don't know of agencies that reverted back to 9mm once they switched to 40S&W.

EMT and ER staff I talked to over the years tell story after story of how 25ACP/32ACP/38Spl/380Auto/9mm shooting victims readily survive their GSW injuries - Less so with 40S&W/45ACP and rarely of 357/44 Mag.

What I am hoping for is the factual support that 380Auto/9mm with reduced velocities from shorter barrels produce sufficient stopping power when I feel inadequate about 40S&W. I see the growing popularity for the 9mm and more and more down play the 40S&W. Why? With what factual basis is this being done? It is for this reason why I have an interest in this thread and I welcome your comments.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Forget energy transfer (my opinion)...45acp, 9mm, 40...none of them have enough oomph to cause major shock (that 357 mag is another story with 125 grain bullets)

Like I've been saying, and you said it too I think...you have to put the hole in the right place.

Regardless of the situation...shot placement trumps all.

I'm a pretty decent shot (most of the time anyway)...I am confident in my shot placement, thats why I want to make darn sure the bullet penetrates.

Others want to make sure their bullet expands, and one could not say either of us is wrong...just that we use 2 different means to the same end.

 

[LiveLife]

But the reality is that we may not always get ideal shot placements. In real life, our targets may move fast.

I have shot matches for quite a few years and when we set up moving targets in our stages, even the seasoned shooters had hard time hitting any part of the USPSA targets. It took deliberate practice to get the timing right to hit these moving targets. If your real life target moves unpredicatably under low light situations, it will be difficult to guarantee ideal shot placement.

I think when we discuss stopping powers or terminal effects of pistol bullets, we should consider approaching from reduced velocities from short barreled compacts hitting less vital parts of the body and not the "ideal" optimal velocities hitting vital parts of the body. This approach will put more realistic and practical picture.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I see what you're saying...but short barrels "does not compute" with me. My wife and I both carry 45's, 4 inch barrels (technically mine is 4.25")...which don't lose anything that will be missed.

With that said...I'll shut up and let somebody who is into sub-compacts weigh in on it.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I see what you're saying...but short barrels "does not compute" with me. My wife and I both carry 45's, 4 inch barrels (technically mine is 4.25")...which don't lose anything that will be missed.

With that said...I'll shut up and let somebody who is into sub-compacts weigh in on it.