A Hunters Perspective on Stopping Power

[Hangingrock]

The problem with shot placement is placing the shot. Shot placement in the abstract sounds goods, looks good, and feels good as the solution to the problem. Yep you are calm, cool, and collected. Your concentration as such that you count the serrations in the front sight, perfect trigger press, excellent follow through, and your antagonist drops like a puppet with the strings cut. Ok Walter Mitty you have prevailed.

Now welcome to the real world. You are issued (1) 1911-A1 pistol, (1) brown box with black lettering containing fifty 45ACP cartridges, (3) magazines, (1) dual magazine pouch (1) belt holster, and a K-Bar knife with sheath. You are now set for combat. So what that you’re left handed adapt, improvise, and over come. So what if everyone else is issued rifles you don’t need a rifle for your MOS.

You are now part of a FO/AO team. You have your job and the grunts have their job. Situation fluid they are everywhere you’re in the middle of the preverbal hornets nest. It’s close and personal. Your 1911-A1 is not the one shot show stopper they told you about at Parris Island the year before. Welcome to combat 101 Southeast Asian war games class of 65/66.

Afterwards during the remainder of your service you qualify and re-qualify expert with the 1911-A1. Yes sir you are hell on paper targets. But at least you know the difference between myth and grim reality.

Forty-five years later the lessons of the one shot stopper fallacy is not lost on you. Place your shots the best you can but realize it may not be your day.

 

[danez71]

..........OGW says the 45acp won't kill a large dog at 10 feet.

Quotes like this make me chuckle.

OGW does NOT say that..... and stating that it does to make a point loses credibility.


As stated in the OP

The OGW formula implies the weight of game you could achieve reliable, quick, ethical kills on.

It doesnt say "if weighs more, it wont kill it".

 

[LiveLife]

Your 1911-A1 is not the one shot show stopper they told you about at Parris Island the year before. Welcome to combat 101 Southeast Asian war games class of 65/66.

Thanks for the bit of reality.

Wife's two cousins are PD Sergeant and Sheriff's Deputy for metropolitan cities and they talk about having to provide reality orientation to new staff about "pistol stopping power". They site actual shooting cases where suspects (not necessarily under the influence of drugs but just amped up on adrenaline) are shot multiple times with department issue JHP rounds and the suspects still continued their attacks on officers.

COM shots do not always guarantee stopping your attacker, and rarely with a single shot (they shoot until the threat is neutralized). They also talk about the mentality of shot attackers where "they have nothing to lose now" and they attack with everything they got.

If those with first hand account of "lack of stopping power" from full size 40S&W/45ACP raise concerns, then my position is more so with short barreled 380Auto/9mm's lack of stopping power.

The factual accounts we have seen/read over the decades definitely point out that majority of shooting outcome is contrary to the general notion depicted in the movies/TV where the COM shot targets drop with a single pistol shot and die. Toss in the fact that your attacker won't stand still at 7-10 yards further complicates things for proper shot placement.

 

[Kachok]

I know the TKO factor all to well, OWG, Lethality index....pretty much all of them really. I have also studdied wound tracts for years, both in ballisics gel and on game anamals. Even a large .458 caliber bullet with all the weight of the world behind it will not make a substantial temporary wound cavity, or a permanente wound cavity any noticably larger then the original diamiter of the projectile at speeds that low. There are about a hundred ballistics tests that will confirm this. A .45cal hole in somthing as large as a bison would not cause a rapid death due to bloodloss even if it passed through the lungs. Putting things in proportion it is literlay like shooting a mature deer with a 22 rimfire at long range just scale everything down by a factor of 10. 200lbs/2000lbs 40gr/405gr .039sqin frontal area/.38sq in frontal area. My comparison is accurate. We all know a deer can die from a 22LR to the vitals, just don't expect it to be a quick death, and don't hold out any hope of ever finding it, unless you want to follow the vultures next week
BTW I did find a decent comparison to what we are talking about. A 45ACP 230gr fmj hitting a 10% ballistics gel block at 835 fps. It permanite wound cavity volume was a tiny 4.29 cu in despite it's 27" of penatration. The temporary (stretch) cavity was an amazingly small 9cu in. In ballistics terms that performance is very poor even for stopping human sized targets, better then the 38special fmjs but not by much. Pressure wave was a dismal 250lbs, less then a 9mm fmj. I realize the weight is different, but since they are striking at nearly the same speed and are the same caliber the wound canal would not be any wider, just a little deeper. You are calling that pathetic level of performance an ethical bison slayer? I would not shoot a deer with that at those ranges much less a 2,000 anamal. I value quick ethical kills far too much.

 

[Kachok]

I think I have made my point beyond a shadow of a doubt. There is nothing ethical about shooting bison at 500 yards with a 45-70. Every ballistics resource on the planet will tell you that is a bad idea. Now given the time, and the fact that some people did shoot them for survival not just for sport, it is understandable since the 45-70 was about the most effective common rifle of the time. In their position I would have done the same no doubt. But the myth that the 45-70 has some magic ability to defy the laws of phisics and bang-flop 2,000 lbs bison on a body shot at stupid ranges is BUSTED. It won't do it now and guess what it did not do it the either. I have a whole thread going on about the myth of the TKO formula going on right now in the rifle section, even the big game hunters agree with me there is no truth to it whatsoever in the context of soft tissue damage. Heck I even have a quote from John Taylor himself to the same effect. There is even a well documanted experemant in there proving that TKO has no factual basis for tissue damage. Good reading I think all big bore junkies should look it over before smack talking their .308 weilding friends.
Now that we have busted that myth, lets get back to the original subject of the effectiveness of handguns.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Regarding OP...
This is an interesting video I put up on another thread, will work here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8CuOybgmxQ

In the Desert Eagle forum, some who own them say they would not consider them a good bet for hunting

I feel they are in the top slot, I would carry for a hunting trip now...For several reasons...

Yep, heavy brute, but with correct ammo, 2nd, 3rd shot is important to be as accurate as possible. The XIX has that ability in my hands...

Arguing the 50 AE and the 440 Corbon (which I have both, in 10" barrels) is a good link...

http://zvis.com/dep/articles/aevscorb.shtml

Some are going to argue about not enough killing power Sure

 

[Kachok]

A .50AE or .44 mag would be plenty for close range deer hunting with any decent bullet. The pack alot of weight, and move really fast. Now weather or not the accuracy is there or not I don't know, I never did care much for the egronomics of the DE so I never shot them at the range. My fav of all the high power handguns it the 454 that thing is awsome. Witch ever formula you put stock in the 454 is more then you would ever need for deer.

 

[Marshall]

.44 Mag can be devastating on deer out of a carbine length rifle, out to a 200+ range. I know.

Remember the 44 Mag Deerfield Carbine? Whitetail, Hog and B Bear gun run amok! And they drop!

 

[Kachok]

I like the 44mag lever guns, I was drooling over one at my girlfriends store today I just hope Marlin starts chambering the 454 as well, it performs like a 44 on steroids! Puma is the only company I have seen thus far to chamber the 454, and I have no experence with their lever guns.

 

[CraigC]

Some are going to argue about not enough killing power

Not unless we're talking about using deer bullets against brown bears.......again.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Well Craig nice to see you again... You morphed that last thread out of whack big time...
Anyway Merry Christmas

Regards

 

[CraigC]

Sorry sir but I couldn't sit back and watch while you recommended deer bullets at break-neck speeds for bear defense. You were wrong then, you are wrong now and you still won't admit it. How many critters have you killed with 240's@1800fps out of your .440?

 

[Zoogster]

From my own observations I would say the formula is better than many.
It is not a self defense formula, but a killing formula.


A humane ethical hunting shot is one that kills the animal in one shot in a short time from a reasonably placed COM shot.
You can accomplish this with lesser cartridges with even more precise placement especially with high penetrators, and you can fail to accomplish this with even more potent loads with really poor shot placement.
But you determine what is appropriate by what will perform adequately from a reasonable shot with some margin of error to be humane.

Considering that many people shot with handguns (most) survive, and even many that do not survive are still alive long enough to die in the hospital, and that most people are shot multiple times, clearly if they were a game animal it would be considered inhumane and inadequate performance.
This clearly means the rounds most people are shot with would be considered inhumane from a hunting perspective.


On top of that humans are typically built a lot more softly than game animals. Most wild animals are extremely lean and muscular. They exercise constantly and have high muscle and often bone density as a result. This takes more momentum to penetrate than fat, low density muscle, and average human bone density.
200 pounds of soft human is more like 100 pounds of wild animal.

So if you consider a human to equal about 100 pounds of animal on the chart, it is actually quite close.
Few handgun rounds "humanely kill" humans in a single shot from a COM soft tissue hit like desired for hunting animals.



Based on the OP's formula you could reasonably expect a .38 special or .380ACP to down a coyote with one reasonably placed shot.
That is about right.
You could also expect a .454 Casull to down a large black bear in one reasonably placed shot, while probably requiring a couple for a really large grizzly, that is also about right.
If you consider 200 pounds of human to be closer to 100 pounds of animal, a hot .357Magnum or hot 10mmAuto both suggest about 120 pounds and that also sounds about right.
While your typical self defense calibers like the 9mm, .45ACP, and .40S&W will likely require a few reasonably placed shots.
That is also about right.
Few people hit COM with an expanding bullet from a .357 Magnum (actually using .357 Magnum and not .38special) continued to be a problem, as demonstrated from half a century of Law Enforcement use by some departments and individuals. Many wouldn't survive.
While most hit with modern autos are quite active or at least alive (which for a hunting estimation would be unethical) even if downed for quite awhile without additional hits.

Killing is not equal to self defense. They may appear to closely align to "stop" something but that is not exactly accurate. 2-3 rapid shots in hunting to take down prey is poor form and unethical. A wounded dying animal in pain on the ground and alive is also unacceptable for routine performance.
Yet this is the norm for self defense.
One shot downing the animal but leaving it alive is also inhumane and inadequate performance, but would be considered a successful "one shot stop" in self-defense statistics.


Most people though are not looking to hunt humans, but to stop them. So they don't need the round to kill in one shot, a humane requirement for hunting. Rather they need it to stop the threat reasonably fast, perhaps requiring a few shots, while also having acceptable recoil and a reasonable platform size. It is also generally anticipated that accuracy while under fire will be less than from a hunter, and so a compromise of faster follow-up over per round performance made.
For this reason most do not need what would be considered acceptable for hunting, and reasonable recoil and platform size, along with faster follow-up shots result in lower power cartridge compromises.
This is especially true for law enforcement, who need a caliber that is reasonable for both large muscular males, and small stature females. For as was seen with the FBI and the full power 10mmAuto loads, failure to accomodate all employees can result in sexual discrimination claims, or similar claims for failure to address the needs of all employees.

 

[Kachok]

I must have missed somthing here. Are you saying that a 240gr hardcast bullet @1800fps is not a suitable defence round? Me personaly I would take large caliber high speed hardcast over a regular 12ga slugs ANYDAY when bear are involved. The penatration is MUCH better even if the KE and TKO figures are lower. I will back that up with ballistics tests if you like, or I can give you the readers digest version. A .70cal 437gr lead Foster slug at 1513fps penatrated just shy of 14" of standard 10% Ballistics gel. While a 44 cal 300gr FN hardcast with a large meplet at 1471fps penatrated 34". The 44 also had a more impressive wound canal. Now there are some solid brass, steel, and copper slugs that might do as well but the higher SD of the 300gr 44 gives it a huge advantage, in this test the large .34cal meplet made all the difference in the world for tissue damage. Just goes to show you that while calculators are great the terminal ballistics of a bullet are vastly more important.

 

[LiveLife]

Most people though are not looking to hunt humans, but to stop them. So they don't need the round to kill in one shot, a humane requirement for hunting. Rather they need it to stop the threat reasonably fast

Zoogster, good post. Thank you.

Yes, for defensive pistol rounds, we need something that will hit hard enough to stop an attacker or accept the notion that multiple defensive shots may be required. A wounded animal's (prey) instinct is to flee. A wounded attacker's (predator) instinct is to continue attacking.

As already posted from many hunters' experience and perspectives, smaller caliber pistol rounds will often not drop a similarly human sized or smaller animal. This to me translates to smaller caliber pistol rounds not capable of dropping a human attacker. If shot human attacker continues to attack, even for short period of time, this may result in very negative outcome for the defender.


Kachok, I believe even non-hollow point hard cast lead bullets travelling fast enough will do significant damage, even deliver a lethal single shot drop. But the bullets shot from most commonly carried short barrelled pistols will simply not generate enough velocity to accomplish what we define as "stopping power". I think real life hunting data/experience available to us should translate into useful information for us to use in determining smaller pistol caliber stopping power. I hope this realization will help us develop better defensive tactics and drills instead of expecting our targets (attackers) to simply drop in their tracts with a single shot.

 

[Kachok]

Oh that last post was talking about stopping a bear since CraigC went in that direction. No you are right the penataration of FN hardcast bullets is simply not required or even wanted on two legged predators. HP have much more shallow penatration but do maximaize energy transfer in shallow targets like humans. If you wanted to stop a charging bear though the shallow penatration or HP bullets would be useless, as are expanding lead slugs, and most small caliber rifle bullets.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The HP mentioned (440) is one that mushrooms slightly and continues into target, many now feel the best is the big 500 hard lead, but I still contend the 440 pushing a 240 grain at around 1800 fps is formidable...Soft point, FMJ, solid, what ever... His mention about a deer round

It is argue-able but not with Craig...He twists stuff around some, and has no Profile

Regards

 

[Zoogster]

Yes, for defensive pistol rounds, we need something that will hit hard enough to stop an attacker or accept the notion that multiple defensive shots may be required. A wounded animal's (prey) instinct is to flee. A wounded attacker's (predator) instinct is to continue attacking.

I agree mindset plays a huge role, especially in someone hit by a bullet, but do not agree that most predatory criminals instinct is to continue attacking.

I also think mindset of the target plays a bigger role in many successful stops than given credit.
Most prey animals don't know what to think after being shot, and flee in fear, to expire later if shot with something less than adequate. While a fearless predator like a brown bear defending cubs may continue an attack.
Most humans on the other hand think of a gun as a deadly lethal weapon, and expect a gunshot to be devastating. For example many movies even have the first guy hit with a single shot instantly keeling over, from modern action movies to old westerns. The deadliness of a shot is ingrained in the minds of many in our culture.
So when shot by something hard to shrug off and quite noticeable many humans instantly think the worst, and quickly go into shock at the realization they have been shot. This psychological shock is quite incapacitating, often for long enough for the physical effects to catch up.
This results in better than realistic performance for a given round.
Wide and slow is the most noticed, the most painful, and likely to have the largest psychological impact. It crushes more nerves and is felt like a thud.
While something that zips through will be felt less, even when it does more internal damage.
Which certainly means something like a .45ACP is going to have a large immediate 'you have just been shot' message registering with the recipient.

I think most criminals are expecting 'good' results, whether it be money from a burglary or robbery, or some sort of gratification from other criminal actions. Their motivation is some perceived benefit, and they don't anticipate death or serious injury.
They are not anticipating nor expecting to have a big gunfight, nor mentally prepared to exchange rounds and fight to the death over something as trivial as their anticipated gains.
Take a typical burglar or store robber. When they are unexpectedly shot they are suddenly and unexpectedly faced with the shock of being shot, over something they were not mentally prepared to fight to the death and die over. Even if prepared to kill for their minimal gains, they are often not prepared to really fight to the death over them.
So when hit with bullets the typical results are greater than they should be. They either go into shock and writhe on the floor, or exert their last remaining conscious efforts on escape and fleeing. Both often resulting in a successful self defense result, even if the criminal does not actually go unconscious (and so was not actually physically 'stopped') for quite some time.




However this is far from reliable, and the mindset of many trained bad guys (or those having decided to fight to the death) and good guys has resulted in gunfights continuing well after one has taken even lethal hits. Some drugs have a similar psychological effect more so than any physical benefit against bullets, which is why I think they result in some bad guys being harder to drop.
The mind controls whether the body continues to operate until forced to physically stop, or is stopped by shock or indecisiveness sooner.
Someone temporarily stopped by mental shock is soon stopped by physical incapacitation when it catches up, often blurring the lines between the two.
While someone not stopped by mental shock continues to operate for seconds or minutes longer, until physical incapacitation catches up.
This time is spent trying to survive and avoid injury to live another day by the majority, criminal and good guy alike, but in trying to offensively inflict maximum effects until the last second by a few.

Some officers who have taken lethal hits and die minutes later have advanced on criminals or continued to empty rounds into them. You can find examples of both officer and criminal dying or being wounded in such incidents. Many similar incidents have been noted on the battlefield, even when involving rifle rounds at close range. Whether it is the soldier fighting with lethal injuries to down the enemy for seconds longer, or the jihadist that just has to hit that detonator for Allah before death.
While your average person spends their conscious moments after taking hits trying to avoid additional hits, or fleeing in the case of most criminals.
This also likely accounts for many ceasing to take additional hits and so being more likely to survive the encounter.
The amount of injury necessary to absolutely immediately stop the body is well in excess of the amount that will be lethal within several minutes.
So most that fight through lethal hits and continue to take more in order to accomplish more offensively until forced incapacitation will die. But few have the mindset to do so, fortunately in the case of criminals.

 

[LiveLife]

So when shot by something hard to shrug off and quite noticeable many humans instantly think the worst, and quickly go into shock at the realization they have been shot.

Zoogster, I agree that when people realize that they have been shot, they may react expecting the worst. That is if they realize they have been shot. Many people who have been shot reported that they either did not realize that they had been shot or that shots felt like bee stings and did not register in their mind as a "gun shot".

I believe it is during this "brief" time that is very critical for us. Predators attack when they "believe" they have the upper hand/advantage. If they think that's not the case, they will wait or move on to the next convenient victim. They attack with the overconfidence that they will be successful. Some of them, even when countered with gunshots, may not want to accept the reality and hold to their unrealistic perceptions/expectations. In the heat of the attack enhanced by adrenaline, if gun shots are not registered as such, the attacker will continue to attack. It is this "brief" moment that is critical to us and our lives may be on the line.

As such, I want as much advantage on my side as possible. I won't risk my life or the lives of my family on the chance that the attacker I shot will stop the attack because of factors that I have no control over. Once a justified defensive shooting situation exists, it will be multiple shots of largest and fastest bullets I can proficiently launch in my defense, until the immediate threat is neutralized.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Shock is a situation little have control over to be honest...

As such, I want as much advantage on my side as possible. I won't risk my life or the lives of my family on the chance that the attacker I shot will stop the attack because of factors that I have no control over. Once a justified defensive shooting situation exists, it will be multiple shots of largest and fastest bullets I can proficiently launch in my defense, until the immediate threat is neutralized.

This is a good reply, for some it might be a big bad heavy recoil shooter, for others something in mid range like a 9mm is the answer...Proficient stands out as far as I am concerned...

If you have a hand held firearm training and practice are needed Those who shoot the x and 10 ring can tell you they start opening up into the 9 ring fairly easy if you don't keep at it... Rapid under/in control fire power is best...

Merry Christmas

 

[Hangingrock]

If one studies the historical background/development of the 45ACP it was clearly designed to be a stopper. The testing procedures by today’s standards equate to antiquated and less than scientific. None the less a stopper is what they were in search of.

One may agree or disagree on the meaning of a stopper. A stopper in my opinion would be a cartridge that causes the antagonist to cease hostilities right then and there.

Handguns for self-defense criteria portability and stopping power are the primary considerations there is no perfect compromise.

When you witness an individual take solid COM hits from a 1911-A1, M1 Carbine, and M14 it’s an eye opener. These weapons are designed to deliver a killing shot. Yes you may wound a person but the primary intent is to kill them. Not all wounded stay in the fight but enough do which is nettlesome. You can’t drop/stop your antagonist fast enough.

I’m certainly not claiming to be a gunfighter or anything like that more or less a survivor who was there and made it home. When your nineteen going on twenty half boy/half man it’s a sobering experience.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Being a LEO in a city like LA, you see a lot of death...

Because of that I had more confidence in the Model 37 Shotgun loaded with double ought buck... 12 ball bearings give or take one or two, in the chest is a stopper Believe it

Regards

 

[LiveLife]

Shotgun ... is a stopper

Absolutely! Although shotgun is a great option for HD, it is not a carry-able option for SD.

A stopper in my opinion would be a cartridge that causes the antagonist to cease hostilities right then and there.

Handguns for self-defense criteria portability and stopping power are the primary considerations there is no perfect compromise.

Not all wounded stay in the fight but enough do which is nettlesome. You can’t drop/stop your antagonist fast enough.

Good points.

As hunters look for quick humane kills that drop their targets right there where they stand (and also to minimize any chasing/hiking they gotta do to fetch the kills), we look for ways to quickly stop the attack to minimize/prevent harm to us.

I believe understanding and accepting the realistic capabilities and shortcomings of defensive pistol rounds is the basis on which effective defensive tactics can be developed.

 

[Hangingrock]

Shotguns I used one on and off an M-97 (Winchester-1897). A stopper not in my hands apparently and let me tell you why. We had precious few 12-Gauge brass shot shell in #00 buck but we did have a couple three boxes of trap loads that our armorer scrounged up from special services before leaving Okinawa.

Like I said before carried it on and off but we meaning I never really had an opportunity to fire it other than test fire or target it to check the pattern.:banghead:

The first opportunity to use against an antagonist just nipped them with the #00 but it did catch their attention. The follow up charge smacked the buttocks & legs ending hostilities and giving us a prisoner.

The armorer patterned the M97 and told everyone that it was issued to “this is a close quarter’s weapon and we do mean really close”. Like every tool you better know how to use it.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Some ammo makers believe this is the best performance you can get with a bullet, shooting into the heart and lung area is where you want to put them...
If the animal (man) is not spooked as a rule done deal, if spooked, well then it is a different situation, and if they are attacking Hope they are not successful in their intention

.440 Cor-Bon Mag., 260gr., Bonded Core Hollow Point, 1700 fps/ 1669 ft/lbs., 20/box
CorBon is the leader in high velocity ammunition, generating maximum performance from every loading. The faster a bullet is traveling, the more energy created. Energy developed at the muzzle must be transferred or "dumped" into the target to be effective. Energy transfer is aided by bullet expansion. The higher the velocity, the more rapidly the expansion - the more rapid the expansion, the more effectively the energy is expended in the target. This explosive expansion dumps the available energy quickly, creating tremendous shocking power and causing the perpetrator to cease doing further harm, thus STOPPING POWER. Stopping power means safety.