Are you buying ammo at higher than market prices?

[torqem]

regardless of what you "think" the price should be

car, house, etc, the market price is what people will pay. It's that simple. Your hating it won't change the facts. Whim worshipping has never achieved a thing.

 

[Warp]

I have not purchased ammo privately or on Gunbroker. Ever, actually.

I have sold both ways in the past year.

To those out there who believe people other than retail outlets are setting the "fair market price" or whatever you wish to call it, frankly you are full of it. You may also decide just what "it" is.

Furthermore this madness does not effect me at all, most if not all of my ammo was purchased long before anyone even heard of an Obama for Senate.

You are wrong.

Supply and Demand.

We learned it in high school.

Go look it up.

 

[Sam1911]

To those out there who believe people other than retail outlets are setting the "fair market price" or whatever you wish to call it, frankly you are full of it. You may also decide just what "it" is.

That's probably me. Sorry, I'm just full of it. I can't help it. I'm full of it, and it stinks, and you'd probably just HATE to be around me. Gotta watch out for sharp objects -- I'm so full of it I might BURST!



But anywhooo ... I was taught that "the market" included all those in a given area and time who were buying and selling something, therefore any legitimate "market price" had to reflect and take into account all the prices being paid for that item at that moment.

You may thank WalMart for keeping their prices lower than supply and demand require, but others thank them for providing a wonderful opportunity to make money by "flipping" ammo. That fact that someone CAN sell retail-purchased ammo again immediately for a higher price is DE FACTO proof that the market value is not close to the price WalMart is charging.

You may say that you understand your own point of view so well because you haven't bought any ammo since General Jackson made the Treaty of Ghent a rather moot point, but it doesn't help establish credibility in explaining how markets work.

 

[jcwit]

All these outlandish profits being made by those in the so called "free Market" being reported as income?

So Sam, in your mind the largest retail company in the world has no idea what the "market value" is and therefore they are in fact "full of it".

Plain and simple its nothing short of greed on the part of those who participate in scalping the supply.

General Jackson made the Treaty of Ghent a rather moot point,

What does that have to do with anything? So far back in history it for sure is a moot point!

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Once all Walmarts take that practice of putting stock out randomly, .22 ammo will drop in price dramatically. With scalpers having first dibs at 7 in the morning,
making ammo drops random removes their profit(time = money) and we all win. No reason to buy .22 at double and triple the norm when it's readily available at Walmart.

It's really amazing, and sad, the impact Walmart has over our lives.

Now let me get this straight. Keeping in mind that Walmart has a 3 box limit, you think that instead of selling to 4 guys/gals at 7am and instead sell it to 4 different guys/gals at 2pm is going to solve the shortage. Did you hit your head on something. What you and others need to understand is that noone is getting anywhere near what they got in 2012 before this mess started. Every shop owner and big box retailer manager has told me this.

Another thing. There are a whole lot of places that don't even have a Walmart or any of the big box retailers. They have to depend on a LGS if there is one and your LGS is right there with us when it comes to getting ammo. SO people have to turn to online sources to get their ammo and thats where those who buy and resell come in. A raw deal for sure but at least they have the opportunity to make the choice of buying it or not.

Another thing to consider. Another panic is not out of the question given the court case in Conn. and the midterm congressional elections this year. So the so called high prices could look dirt cheap in 6-9 months from here.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

All these outlandish profits being made by those in the so called "free Market" being reported as income?

So Sam, in your mind the largest retail company in the world has no idea what the "market value" is and therefore they are in fact "full of it".

Plain and simple its nothing short of greed on the part of those who participate in scalping the supply.

What supply.

 

[holdencm9]

Am I paying higher than what I would have paid 2 years ago? Yes. But I am not paying higher than market value.

 

[Reloadron]

I keep hearing about these 7 guys or whatever who are at the Walmart at 7 AM when the ammunition is placed on the shelves and they all buy their three box/brick/whatever limit and scalp the stuff.

A few weeks ago I went to the local Walmart with my wife. My main reason for going was to spare her humping the large bags of dog food. While there I figured what the heck and checked ammunition. Wow, midday and be still my little heart. There on the shelf was Blazer 22 LR so I bought my 3 boxes as long as I was there anyway. I didn't even bother to have the wife get three boxes.

I retired last year in May. I no longer have to get up and go to work. My local Walmart is maybe 7 to 10 min away. There is no way in hell I am getting up to go to the Walmart to try and score 22 LR ammo. The seven scalpers are welcome to it. My best suggestion is for those who have issues with these seven scalpers is to show up at Walmart at 6 AM and join them ahead of them in the line. I am sure you all don't work 7 days a week?

Every thread that starts involving ammunition evolves into the same seven guys at the Walmart buying all the 22 LR and scalping it. Like I said, if that worried about it drag your butts to Walmart at 6 AM. Don't look for me as I won't be there but feel free to stop over for coffee after your expedition.

Ron

 

[Impureclient]

Did you hit your head on something.

Almost slipped by, almost. Attacking me personally does not cancel out my opinion.

you think that instead of selling to 4 guys/gals at 7am and instead sell it to 4 different guys/gals at 2pm is going to solve the shortage.

There is no shortage of anything. Just many people gobbling ammo up and sitting on it either til this all blows over(again) and the few snatching it up only to resell at scalping prices. If Walmart sets a one box limit and those boxes were spread onto 20-30 people instead of the 4 or 5 in the morning, yes it would alleviate much of this. First of all those 4 in the morning are all together sometimes which equals one shopper with family/friends getting their limits. So one or a few people have all that days supply which means they can demand from those possible 20-30 others who missed out whatever price they deem fit in online auctions or gunshows, hence over priced .22 ammo which we are all dealing with.

I just want a box or two to shoot that day and the early bird scalpers in Walmart make that impossible. I will not buy ammo at scalper prices so hopefully the "tax free illegal ammo entrepreneurs" have to eat that ammo when prices correct themselves.

 

[jcwit]

I will not buy ammo at scalper prices so hopefully the "tax free illegal ammo entrepreneurs" have to eat that ammo when prices correct themselves.

Excellent description IMO.

 

[torqem]

Anyway, it's not the few waiting in line. It's much more likely the employees taking the entire shipment before it ever hits the shelves, calling their buddies to come get it.

 

[JDR]

Again, depends what is meant by "market price". I don't reload so I've had to pay more than what I typically pay for ammo, when I've bought ammo at the indoor ranges I go to, on the rare occasions when I needed ammo. These LGRs are small businesses and can't sell their ammo for what my local Wally's sells it for, that's just the way it is.

 

[Tirod]

Have you bought ammo from a scalper? Do you know anyone who has?

Simple questions. Who's buying all the high priced ammo that is reputedly immoral or unethical? Cause, nobody is saying. Either nobody really is, or, it was market price to them and why talk about it?

Who buys the ammo on Gunbroker that you know is "too high?"

SOMEBODY IS, according to all the griping.

NOBODY, however, can name names or say "It's me."

I can only conclude the claims about "scalpers lined up at Walmart" are pure BS - making up somebody to blame because the whiner can't walk into the store at 4PM and expect to buy it off the shelf.

Despite the fact that plenty here say they are.

Since the majority of the complaints are coming from people who only buy a few boxes at a time, from sources who only stock a few boxes at a time, it seems pretty clear it's not the big consumers or scalpers who are depleting the few boxes. It's people within a ten mile radius of the outlet. Joe Citizen. Not flippers or scalpers or some black market entrepreneur. No different than trying to mule cold medicine to make meth, small time operators buy local, the Cartel gets it shipped in by the truck load. (They now control the market.)

If you are suffering a local ammo shortage, then it's being caused by you and your local neighbors and friends. Not some nameless faceless scalper.

Anybody actually run across these guys at work, or word of mouth? Ridiculous. I expect it's as common as someone lurking behind your place of work trying to sell pictures of your mom.

Do I have to put it in caps?

WHO IS BUYING AMMO FROM SCALPERS AT HIGH PRICES?

I seriously doubt it. Just a made up story to blame someone else for the frustration of not getting any when they bother to walk in. If you show up late to the party, don't expect that they will save the good booze just for you. Nope, it's served early when people can appreciate it. If you can't make the effort to be there when it is, you only have yourself to blame.

Not some mythical scalper.

 

[Sam1911]

All these outlandish profits being made by those in the so called "free Market" being reported as income?

Not on the point. An interesting question, but not directly related to what we're discussing. I mean, after all, we're all such big proponents of the current tax code that we're going to be the enthusiastic rah-rah team for the tax man? You'll never see a bunch of individualists screaming for tax law enforcement like you will when someone else stands to make a buck.

So Sam, in your mind the largest retail company in the world has no idea what the "market value" is and therefore they are in fact "full of it".

Now let's be perfectly clear! I'M the only one that's "Full of It," thankyouverymuch!

But no, read what I wrote carefully. I said that WalMart DOES understand market value -- better than you or I.

But they don't just sell ammo. They sell 100,000 other products, and they have a market strategy that says they DON'T follow the market when one of their items goes through a market value swing. Their theory is that they want to be known for LOW prices. So they'll sell some things for much less than they could get for them -- i.e.: what the market is valuing them at. Even less than is profitable, occasionally. That gets butts in the store. They DON'T care that there aren't any of that item on the shelf today. People will still come look and while they're there they'll pick up some shampoo, a gallon of milk, a DVD and a t-shirt. The strategy is GOOD for WalMart, but not really good for "the market" as a whole. For one thing, it make all the other retailers (your beloved local gun shop, for example) look like cheats when they push their prices up to meet demand (and costs). For another, it simply FORCES the creation of a "flipper" class of folks who will trade their time standing in line at 6:00 am for making a clear $20-30 a brick on .22s. The product is selling at WalMart so far below what the collection of buyers is willing to pay for it, that someone is going to step in and act as a middleman to reap the harvest of that price discrepancy. It HAS to happen. Expecting it not to is like seeing a large gold brick to fall out of the sky and land in the middle of Main St. and believing that no one will stop to pick it up. It is there for the taking. We're living creatures, we collect resources to extend and better our lives, wherever we can find them. It's part of the definition of being alive.

Plain and simple its nothing short of greed on the part of those who participate in scalping the supply.

Buying something for one price and selling it again at a much higher price will always be called greed by someone. Others will call it "making a living" or "wise investment" or some other term. If the point of the exercise is to turn a profit and therefore continue to meet life's expenses and maybe get ahead, then "greed" is absolutely fine, positive, and necessary.

General Jackson made the Treaty of Ghent a rather moot point,

What does that have to do with anything? So far back in history it for sure is a moot point!

Exactly my point. The fact that you haven't bought ammo in decades doesn't make your opinion more valid. You aren't participating in the current market at all, but you're casting stones at a lot of folks who are. Bully for you.

 

[jcwit]

Exactly my point. The fact that you haven't bought ammo in decades doesn't make your opinion more valid. You aren't participating in the current market at all, but you're casting stones at a lot of folks who are. Bully for you.

And I'm doing it for the very reason that all this greed is hurting the shooting sports in general for all the new folks getting into this sport, no matter whether they are young or old or in between.

Not on the point. An interesting question, but not directly related to what we're discussing. I mean, after all, we're all such big proponents of the current tax code that we're going to be the enthusiastic rah-rah team for the tax man? You'll never see a bunch of individualists screaming for tax law enforcement like you will when someone else stands to make a buck.

So you support breaking or ignoring the law? Way to go, very HR.

You know Sam, its very possible you will never convince me, nor I you. But in the end I am entitled to my opinion, as are you. That is one of my entitlements, I think.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

There is a shortage. Just ask the LGS when the last time they got any 22lr ammo and when do they expect their next shipment. My local Academy finally got some 22lr in last Friday. It was the first 22lr they had received in a month. The local management can't get what they need for their store. They have told me they are only getting a fraction of what they received in 2012. Same from the LGS owners. There is a shortage due to demand. Accept it.

You cannot add millions of new shooters to the demand side and not cause a shortage in supply. The increase in demand caused by new shooters was basically an "overnight" event which put the manufactures behind with virtually no way to catch up. Those new shooters with children naturally introduced the sport to their children and 22lr is the most often route people take for introducing children and new shooters to the hobby. The shortage is REAL and exists.

 

[torqem]

oh yeah?

then why have not imports of.22 ammo increased to fill the gap, hmmm? Something else IS going on, or we'd have been swamped in imported .22's. Why would foreign sellers/makers let it go for 3-4c each, to other countries, when they could easily make 2x that much by sending it here?

 

[powder]

Nope, and my wife finally understands why we always left Wal-Mart with ammo. every time we were in there for something: it is a commodity the same as silver, gold, or what have you.

At the fun show last month I saw a guy selling TULA .223 at $20 for a box of 20. $35 AR-10 mags going for $85. If people are willing to pay it? Oh well..

It has been more interesting to see who your real friends are, who relate where/when the deals are, rather than tell me about them after they purchased-those are the good guys I call from Wal-Mart when I find the .22 bricks back in stock at $22. A pile of ammo is like a good pile of split wood-makes me all warm and fuzzy.

 

[Sam1911]

And I'm doing it for the very reason that all this greed is hurting the shooting sports in general for all the new folks getting into this sport, no matter whether they are young or old or in between.

I see what you're saying there. I mean, wouldn't it be great if guns and ammo and places to shoot were free and totally open-access to anyone who wanted to participate?

But why should our hobby/interest/passion not be subject to the same market forces that everything else in this world is subject to?

It may not be "good" for the shooting sports that prices rise, but if WalMart (and others) followed market prices things would be BETTER, probably.

As an example: Price of a brick of ammo in 2012? Maybe $18. Let's say we get to the middle of 2013 and WalMart's financial wizards do market polling and find out that folks are paying anywhere from $25 to $65 a brick for that ammo out in the open market. So WalMart says sheesh, the average price right now is $45 a brick! Well, they don't have to even charge the average price. If they'd put it out on the shelves at $10 less, say $35 a brick, they would have still sold almost all they could get, but fewer people would see it as a "screaming deal" and break the piggy bank open to buy every brick they could get. Instead they say, "Dang, that's pretty expensive compared to last year. I need some ammo, but I'll just buy one brick and conserve it." There are lots of bricks left on the shelf.

The net result is that more people end up able to buy ammo because it isn't flying off the shelf immediately. Those who do, shoot conservatively, because it is more expensive than it was -- though still a lot cheaper than centerfire stuff. And people grumble a little that the price is "so high." But the "flippers" and "scalpers" stay at home on the couch because is ISN'T worth it to make just a few dollars a box, especially in a market that is softening because -- wow! -- there's usually ammo on the shelf (expensive, but it is there).

Now, forgetting scalpers and flippers for the moment, the benefit of slightly higher pricing to the average consumer base is that it suppresses the urge to impulse/splurge buy. If you walk in to the shop and see .22 lr at $40 a brick, you're not so willing to blow $120 to get your three box limit. Not every week or every month at least. Even if you're a lucky one who happens to show up just as they're stocking the shelf -- well...meh, I don't need it THAT much. So you walk away leaving 2 or 3 of "your" bricks on the shelf to be bought by the next guy. Then the next guy says, "hey, there was plenty of ammo on the shelf at WalMart yesterday..." and when he doesn't buy all of "his" stash at once, then two or three others say the same thing. And the panic evaporates.

Joe Newbie and his kids can then walk into WalMart and buy a .22 rifle and a brick of ammo whenever they want to. It's a little more expensive than in "the good old days" but everything is -- so what? No use getting folks into the sport expecting it to be CHEAP.

Not on the point. An interesting question, but not directly related to what we're discussing. I mean, after all, we're all such big proponents of the current tax code that we're going to be the enthusiastic rah-rah team for the tax man? You'll never see a bunch of individualists screaming for tax law enforcement like you will when someone else stands to make a buck.

So you support breaking or ignoring the law? Way to go, very HR.

I'm not even going to answer one way or the other. It's off topic here and not on-point to the discussion. I'm just pointing out how ironic it is that we LOVE to enforce "the law" when someone else stands to get ahead. Right champions of justice we are -- when it isn't our butts, our money, our profit.

You know Sam, its very possible you will never convince me, nor I you. But in the end I am entitled to my opinion, as are you. That is one of my entitlements, I think.

Oh certainly. Express your opinion! I'll continue to express mine. A nice point-counterpoint for the readers.

 

[Sam1911]

Additionally: I sometimes wonder if WalMart's "3-box" limit is really a maximum, or a minimum?

I know a lot of buyers would have spent thousands and bought the entire shipment before it was off the truck last year if they were allowed to, but I seriously believe that there's some slick psychology going on with a "3 box limit" imposed on the shopper.

Someone walks into the store and says, "Hmmm...I'll grab some ammo if they have any." They might pick up one or two...or five. Who knows? But if you tell them "there's a panic on! I can't sell you more than THREE BOXES!!!"

Guess how many boxes 99% of customers will walk out with?

I wonder if it is possible to do some kind of analysis and figure out if they sold more or less with a 3-box limit in place?

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Almost slipped by, almost. Attacking me personally does not cancel out my opinion.

There is no shortage of anything. Just many people gobbling ammo up and sitting on it either til this all blows over(again) and the few snatching it up only to resell at scalping prices. If Walmart sets a one box limit and those boxes were spread onto 20-30 people instead of the 4 or 5 in the morning, yes it would alleviate much of this. First of all those 4 in the morning are all together sometimes which equals one shopper with family/friends getting their limits. So one or a few people have all that days supply which means they can demand from those possible 20-30 others who missed out whatever price they deem fit in online auctions or gunshows, hence over priced .22 ammo which we are all dealing with.

I just want a box or two to shoot that day and the early bird scalpers in Walmart make that impossible. I will not buy ammo at scalper prices so hopefully the "tax free illegal ammo entrepreneurs" have to eat that ammo when prices correct themselves.

I didn't attack you personally. I attacked the supposition you put forth. You're position that changing the time ammo is put on the shelf for sale will correct the shortage is simply crazy. You ignore the basic fact that there is very little supply available for purchase. You missed that. You simply chose to ignore the increased number of new gun owners which is in the neighborhood of 20 million new gun owners. Plus those gun owners that expanded their own personal collection into new areas. That is the crux of the problem.

You have also assumed that those buying ammo in the morning will not change the time they show up to buy ammo. You assume they will not come in later when its put out on the shelf. You are wrong on that also.

You state that all you want to do is pick up a couple of boxes to shoot that day. That paradigm has been broken and a new one instituted. The ability to walk into a LGS or other retailer to pick up some ammo to shoot that day has been regulated to the annals of history. Those days are gone forever. You have to adapt to the changing situation if you wish to continue to shoot.

 

[jerkface11]

Can we get a ban on ammo shortage/ hoarding threads? Or maybe just have one that's sticky?

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Additionally: I sometimes wonder if WalMart's "3-box" limit is really a maximum, or a minimum?

I know a lot of buyers would have spent thousands and bought the entire shipment before it was off the truck last year if they were allowed to, but I seriously believe that there's some slick psychology going on with a "3 box limit" imposed on the shopper.

Someone walks into the store and says, "Hmmm...I'll grab some ammo if they have any." They might pick up one or two...or five. Who knows? But if you tell them "there's a panic on! I can't sell you more than THREE BOXES!!!"

Guess how many boxes 99% of customers will walk out with?

I wonder if it is possible to do some kind of analysis and figure out if they sold more or less with a 3-box limit in place?

Sam in my area the limits imposed by sellers are the maximum. The folks at Academy have informed me they could lose their job if they are caught putting ammo away for themselves after they get off work. In fact several of their managers have been in line on their day off to purchase ammo. That's just my area.

My local Walmarts have a 3 box limit and they enforce it. Academy has a 2 box limit per person per day on 22lr. On bulk 22lr which they qualify as anything holding 300 rounds or more the limit is 1 box per person per day.

The amount of ammo coming into my city is quite small. it's really striking that so little is coming in and I really don't see it changing much. We are one crazy action or one Supreme Court decision away from complete chaos. The recent court case in Conn. will encourage those who have been holding back on instituting new gun laws to go forward. It's frightening and people are responding in a very natural way by stocking up.

As far as to how much they are selling everything I've been told is they are selling less because they are getting less than they were in 2012. Lets face the facts that when there is only enough ammo in a delivery to sell to 4 people you have a problem even with limits. I know because a week ago this past Sunday I was the fifth person in line and the ammo purchases went like this. Person 1 got 3 boxes as did person 2 and 3. Person 4 got one box and person 5 which happened to be me got nothing. There is no supply and what there is is only a fraction of past normal levels.

 

[SFreed]

Not to change the topic, but Cabelas has Winchester 22 $7.99 per 100. Not bad if you live close enough for the ship to store option.

 

[SFreed]

And I think the point Sam was making with the limits was how many buyers are buying the limit BECAUSE there is a limit. How many didn't need 3 boxes, but that's how many they're going to buy.
Feel free to correct if I'm wrong, Sam.