I hope some of you folks are heating with propane and don't whine your tank runs out and it's upward of $7.50 a gallon, where it was $1.40 a gallon just months ago. In fact, it's what the market value is. I'm sure you'd smile when your 500 gallon tank get filled to 80% and costs $3,000.00. But, you'd have a choice, right? It's just demand... right? In my area, they are limiting fills to 100 gallons, but why should they? They should just sell it to a few who maybe install tandem 1000 gallon tanks and the rest can, well, pay whatever to get what they want. I doubt anyone here would like to be taken advantage because of the "market price".
Are you buying ammo at higher than market prices?
- Thread starter Tirod
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JCwit,
Congratulations on such a great life. I can only hope to be in that position when I am your age.
I have studied plenty of businesses that did not know how they made money. But they did. And lots of it. They did because they were very good at other aspects of what makes a business successful. Nothing in retail is more important than personal relationships and customer service. I would also argue that location and timing are very important factors. I have seen very smart people who understood the economics behind their business better than anyone fail because they did not know how to run a business. I am sure you did many things well to put yourself in the position that you are in today.
Just to be clear, I have not read anything about 'reinventing' economics.
jcwit
member
Yup, that's why its still setting on the tables at the gun shows at the end of the show just as it was at the start of the show. Yup, that the "New Market Value".
No. You awe not following. That is NOT the market value. That is the high dollar sales price. The market value is below that. Far below that.
Gun Master
Member
Original Question ?
No !
No !
+100 to everyone that understands supply and demand and the underlying tenants of capitalism.
Boo to the all the haters that are most likely the ones buying up all the ammo anyway... And because their feelings/ideas lead us ultimately to a nanny state.
Boo to the all the haters that are most likely the ones buying up all the ammo anyway... And because their feelings/ideas lead us ultimately to a nanny state.
Queen_of_Thunder
member
And that is what they call a shortage.
sixgunner455
Member
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I've purchased some match .22 at higher prices than I am used to paying for bulk - but that's to be expected. I've only bought a bit of bulk .22 in the past year, and while it was more expensive than before, it was really not very much for a brick.
Other ammo is more expensive than it used to be, but I mostly reload center fires now, so I only buy factory ammo for my guns when it is a price that I like. Of course, when I borrowed a gun in a caliber I don't own, I had to pay what the only store in town that had any was asking for that caliber, and it was a bit of a choke to pay it. Only did that once, though.
Other ammo is more expensive than it used to be, but I mostly reload center fires now, so I only buy factory ammo for my guns when it is a price that I like. Of course, when I borrowed a gun in a caliber I don't own, I had to pay what the only store in town that had any was asking for that caliber, and it was a bit of a choke to pay it. Only did that once, though.
coloradokevin
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
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- 3,285
In a long term drought like this one it sometimes gets tough to figure out what the "market" price for this stuff really is. I haven't paid ridiculous prices for anything, and I'm not yet willing to, but I've certainly bought some components at slightly higher prices than I would normally pay during times of plentiful components (in other words I've paid between $25-29/lb for smokeless powders, whereas I normally buy from places that sell the stuff for $19-24/lb — but, those cheap places haven't had my powder in stock in a long time, and some of the places I'm currently buying from are still selling at *their* normal prices. Still, I'm not about to pay $50/lb, or some other gouger price for the stuff).
Do I have a reasonable stock of ammo (for the most part)? Yeah, I'm doing okay except for reloading components for my new gun, which arrived after the drought started. Do I wish I'd bought more stuff earlier, knowing what I know now? Yep, I sure do! Has this shortage caused me to cut back on my shooting a bit? Yeah, it has. But, by that same logic I wish I'd gone all-in financially on Apple stock when it was selling for $6/share… then I wouldn't be worried about component prices!
Unfortunately that's the reality in this world: past market performance isn't a great predictor of future market performance, and sometimes boom/bust cycles hit at inopportune times. Almost everyone on this very large forum probably wishes they had more ammo/components/guns, but most of us have other financial obligations or responsibilities to consider as well. I had that particular discussion with a very close and well-stocked friend of mine one time (and this friend is in the same middle-class income bracket as I am). He's got more ammo on hand than anyone I know, and he's got a loan on everything else he "owns". I live a debt-free life, and have planned much more carefully for retirement, which is still a long ways off. A few years ago while I was working hard to get to my current financial position he was chiding me for not having enough components on hand to last me a lifetime (whereas he probably has enough stuff to last three lifetimes). I'm obviously doing worse than he is in an ammunition shortage, but I'll be in a MUCH better position than he is if we ever experience a work/income shortage… I guess I'll just keep calling/visiting stores in the mean time, in hopes of finding what I need to keep shooting!
Do I have a reasonable stock of ammo (for the most part)? Yeah, I'm doing okay except for reloading components for my new gun, which arrived after the drought started. Do I wish I'd bought more stuff earlier, knowing what I know now? Yep, I sure do! Has this shortage caused me to cut back on my shooting a bit? Yeah, it has. But, by that same logic I wish I'd gone all-in financially on Apple stock when it was selling for $6/share… then I wouldn't be worried about component prices!
Unfortunately that's the reality in this world: past market performance isn't a great predictor of future market performance, and sometimes boom/bust cycles hit at inopportune times. Almost everyone on this very large forum probably wishes they had more ammo/components/guns, but most of us have other financial obligations or responsibilities to consider as well. I had that particular discussion with a very close and well-stocked friend of mine one time (and this friend is in the same middle-class income bracket as I am). He's got more ammo on hand than anyone I know, and he's got a loan on everything else he "owns". I live a debt-free life, and have planned much more carefully for retirement, which is still a long ways off. A few years ago while I was working hard to get to my current financial position he was chiding me for not having enough components on hand to last me a lifetime (whereas he probably has enough stuff to last three lifetimes). I'm obviously doing worse than he is in an ammunition shortage, but I'll be in a MUCH better position than he is if we ever experience a work/income shortage… I guess I'll just keep calling/visiting stores in the mean time, in hopes of finding what I need to keep shooting!
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
jcwit: I don't think you're dumb, ignorant, stupid or any of those things you said. I think you're a fine gentleman of obvious talents and I'm proud to know you.
I don't agree with how you define the term "market price" and I think I disagree with how you perceive the free market to really work. But I also suspect that maybe there are subtle differences in definitions of terms, and other little communications frictions, that mean we just aren't understanding each other. (Though I'll admit that we could be communicating perfectly well, and just have opposing opinions.)
At any rate, that last post of yours is an embarrassing bit of debating -- throwing in simultaneous appeal to authority (regarding your fine career) and emotional pathos appeal (oooh, poor me!) and I don't accept it.
I don't agree with how you define the term "market price" and I think I disagree with how you perceive the free market to really work. But I also suspect that maybe there are subtle differences in definitions of terms, and other little communications frictions, that mean we just aren't understanding each other. (Though I'll admit that we could be communicating perfectly well, and just have opposing opinions.)
At any rate, that last post of yours is an embarrassing bit of debating -- throwing in simultaneous appeal to authority (regarding your fine career) and emotional pathos appeal (oooh, poor me!) and I don't accept it.
Come on Sam! You know that's a silly question. African swallows are not migratory. Is there an ammo shortage in Africa?
I think we are in one of the most complicated markets I have ever seen and I spent my entire business life dealing with "market driven" commodities. The products I deal/dealt with(mostly fresh produce)could triple in price overnight due to weather conditions in one area of the world so all of our contracts included "Act of God" clauses to protect the parties involved.
I personally think that the amount of ammo being manufactured, specifically 22LR, is AT LEAST as high as in years past. The insane and now approaching "long term" demand for this product is causing the "shortage" and it doesn't appear that it will ease off any time soon. There is no way, other than large price increases at the retail level, that suppliers can meet current demand. Unless manufacturers raise their prices then Walmart isn't going to raise theirs to meet market price because they don't work that way. They are comfortable with their margin and aren't going to raise their prices because then Bass Pro might undercut them.
In every situation I have ever seen since the 70s the market has eventually worked itself out. Beef, chicken, lettuce, Wii Consoles, Air Nikes, etc have all eventually caught up with demand and the price eventually settles where the "market" is. Usually these prices drop considerably after a period of shortage whether it is caused by high demand or limited supplies.
We don't know what's going to happen. I would love to see some actual figures from a major retailer showing their ammo sales annually. Talking to "the guy at Walmart" who says they aren't getting in as much as they did in 2010 doesn't really do much for me because he has no reason to remember how much 22LR they used to get in on a weekly basis. Maybe it's the same or maybe it's more. The manufacturers SAY that they are still producing at maximum capacity so I'll take them at their word on that.
jcwit
member
Believe me there is no (oooh, poor me) intended, but you make take it in any way you wish. I think paragraph 2 more than negates that assumption.
huntsman
Member
shortages on food stuffs is the real deal, fad clothing and toys is just demand driven by idiots, .22lr The greater fool theory high prices and or shortages on centerfire, I'm not sure it'll be self correcting unless something drastic happens economically.
9mmfan
Member
haven't bought ammo lately, as I haven't done much shooting in the last year. I did pay more than I probably should have for a pound of Unique yesterday. I was just so pleased to find some.
Mike1234567
member
Anyone want to bid on my 14K rds of .22LR?
I dunno... might be closer to 16K rds... or 18K. I can't remember and haven't counted.
I dunno... might be closer to 16K rds... or 18K. I can't remember and haven't counted.
jcwit
member
I very seldom call or use names to describe others, but there times that when the shoe fits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Queen_of_Thunder
member
Quote:
demand driven by idiots,
So that is what you think of all of the new shooters who have joined the hobby since Dec 2012.
Now back on topic. The OP wanted to know if we are paying higher than market prices for ammo but the question can't be answered as there is no such thing as a market price. Why. Prices are differ from region to region. We really have no idea what the "market price" is on anything. We can ascertain an average price of an item by doing surveys but at best its an average price. All markets are regional or local.
The market in my city is quite different from those in such locales as where Mike1234567 lives. The market price for 22lr in his area is different from where I live. Granted internet shopping helps to alleviate much of the discrepancy but shipping costs will also keep prices high in areas off the major routes of a UPS or FEDEX.
AS to the cost of ammo we need to recognize that there is a new paradigm that has come into being since Dec 2012. Its called 100+ million gun owners. Its a new world out there and the price of ammo will not retreat in any measurable way. If you expect to be shooting years from now then you better be stocking up on all of your shooting needs today as future prices will be higher and those prices will drive some from the hobby.
demand driven by idiots,
Quote:
So that is what you think of all of the new shooters who have joined the hobby since Dec 2012.
Now back on topic. The OP wanted to know if we are paying higher than market prices for ammo but the question can't be answered as there is no such thing as a market price. Why. Prices are differ from region to region. We really have no idea what the "market price" is on anything. We can ascertain an average price of an item by doing surveys but at best its an average price. All markets are regional or local.
The market in my city is quite different from those in such locales as where Mike1234567 lives. The market price for 22lr in his area is different from where I live. Granted internet shopping helps to alleviate much of the discrepancy but shipping costs will also keep prices high in areas off the major routes of a UPS or FEDEX.
AS to the cost of ammo we need to recognize that there is a new paradigm that has come into being since Dec 2012. Its called 100+ million gun owners. Its a new world out there and the price of ammo will not retreat in any measurable way. If you expect to be shooting years from now then you better be stocking up on all of your shooting needs today as future prices will be higher and those prices will drive some from the hobby.
jcwit
member
Many of these 100 million are not new gun owners but are folks who just added an arm or 2 to their collection. In my experience here in No. Indiana, there has been a few more joining clubs for access to the ranges but it is far from a large amount of people. Any where from 2 to 5 a month, these are ranges that I am active in as being an Officer or on the BOD. We do support the largest group of 4-H kids, in our county here in Indiana, 800 kids this year.
Mike1234567
member
I don't recall ever trying to sell a single thing on this or any other gun forum. I'm not a vendor. I just thought way ahead and invested. And now I'm just sick of the whole .22 LR shortages and am extremely tempted to opt out altogether. I'm sorry to disappoint but I'll not be selling any .22 LR for 4 cents/rd. Besides... I can ask a whole lot more on GB than I'm likely to get here anyway.How about .04 per round? If you indeed money due to financial difficulties, that may be a godsend to help any burdens you may have. Otherwise it's starting to smack of trying to be a vendor on here. Isn't there some rules and a fee for that?
It seems kind of funny how on a thread, not a few days ago, I posted that there were more shooters and that the manufacturers should jump on it by bumping up production, allowing the same profit margin while retaining the new customers and I was pretty much called out for being wrong, because this is just a market bubble, and now, some of those same folks are saying these prices are here to stay because of all of the increased demand by all of the new shooters, Which is it?
The retailers selling the product are not setting the market. The middle man is. Plain and simple. It's too darn easy for profiteers to sell on the internet now, where in the last panic, it was not so easy, thus there was much less profiteering. The retailers had better stocked shelves, meaning the prices stayed relatively level. This time it's a new game.
jcwit's posts are spot on in my honest opinion. Keep buying... you'll eventually get stuck with your prize. The manufacturers will cash in and up production... mark my words. They are much better at this than us and they undoubtedly will want to cash in on the new shooting customers. Even regulated businesses, which these are not, would make every attempt to get market share when these is a demand like this. Sometimes our worst enemy is ourselves and our greed.
The retailers selling the product are not setting the market. The middle man is. Plain and simple. It's too darn easy for profiteers to sell on the internet now, where in the last panic, it was not so easy, thus there was much less profiteering. The retailers had better stocked shelves, meaning the prices stayed relatively level. This time it's a new game.
jcwit's posts are spot on in my honest opinion. Keep buying... you'll eventually get stuck with your prize. The manufacturers will cash in and up production... mark my words. They are much better at this than us and they undoubtedly will want to cash in on the new shooting customers. Even regulated businesses, which these are not, would make every attempt to get market share when these is a demand like this. Sometimes our worst enemy is ourselves and our greed.
Gun Master
Member
Now Mike, you've been trying to peddle that stash of 22 ammo for a while here. On 1-26 under "Here's the 22LR.." thread you put it up for sale. If I remember right, that was kind of what got some of this going was when a few folks started showing there stashes and defending profiteering.
Here's part of one of your posts.
"No, QoT, you can still buy it for 15 cents/rd if you buy it all and pay actual shipping. Price is good for another 48 hours. I'm a man of my word... but this time I set a time limit.
So if I sell it for 20 cents/rd on GB I don't want to hear any complaining. I didn't and am not buying during the shortage to scalp/gouge. I bought mine years ago when the getting was good. Now that I'm sick of the shortage I'm going to dump it all and get completely out of .22 LR until prices return to sanity. If I can get 17 cents per round or more then I'll take it. Again, I'm not one of those scalpers... bought mine years ago. If anyone has an issue with what I can sell it for today... it's just sour grapes."
Right on Gun Master. The antis don't need our guns... we're starving ourselves of ammo by greed. Maybe this is what they wanted all along.
Here's part of one of your posts.
"No, QoT, you can still buy it for 15 cents/rd if you buy it all and pay actual shipping. Price is good for another 48 hours. I'm a man of my word... but this time I set a time limit.
So if I sell it for 20 cents/rd on GB I don't want to hear any complaining. I didn't and am not buying during the shortage to scalp/gouge. I bought mine years ago when the getting was good. Now that I'm sick of the shortage I'm going to dump it all and get completely out of .22 LR until prices return to sanity. If I can get 17 cents per round or more then I'll take it. Again, I'm not one of those scalpers... bought mine years ago. If anyone has an issue with what I can sell it for today... it's just sour grapes."
Right on Gun Master. The antis don't need our guns... we're starving ourselves of ammo by greed. Maybe this is what they wanted all along.
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