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Backup Gun Choices (thinking small)

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by aaaaa, Apr 10, 2022.

  1. unclenunzie

    unclenunzie Contributing Member

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    In my inexperienced opinion, you'll never get the chance to draw, unfold, grip, thumb the hammer, and fire before a perp is on top of you. Pocket is slow enough as it is. Better any double action you have practiced drawing from a pocket and firing.
     
  2. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

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    The best thing about the .22 is it would be hard for the prosecutor to make a case that you really were out just to kill.

    BUG is for two purposes:
    1. Main gun jams.
    2. Main gun runs out of ammo and you prefer New York Reload.
     
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  3. Harry Paget Flashman

    Harry Paget Flashman Member

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    nPwO50.jpg
     
  4. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    I see we have ourselves a "new" forum "expert". ;)

    Select whatever carry weapons you wish and I will select mine.

    The .22 Mini that carried because of NPE exposure risks (or whatever justification) is the correct choice for me. I have shot them for 20 years, and am comfortable with what they can do and can't do.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
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  5. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

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    You do you Boo
     
  6. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    That's nice.
     
  7. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

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    True story Bro, if you point a single shot bolt action 22 rifle at someone you have employed deadly force. It doesn't even have to be loaded. Caliber is absolutely irrelevant in that equation
     
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  8. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

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    Duly noted.
     
  9. LeftyRed

    LeftyRed Member

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    I have to go with the P32. That thing is small and easy to carry.
     
  10. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

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    This takes me back to the prosecutor pointing Kyle's gun at the jury and why was he not arrested and prosecuted.
     
  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Don't believe it.
     
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  12. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Exactly. Also, while I don't think they are optimal - there is a dearth of reports of the 22s or NAA minis not being a positive thing to have in civilian SD. There are many reports of successful use. I once asked a very well known academic scholar of self-defense shootings if there was evidence that the lesser calibers had a lower rate of deterrence with no shots fired or failures to stop a criminal attack when shots were fired with such. He said - there was no such evidence of that occurring.

    If one makes a legal result claim - one needs to reference the legal or law enforcement source of the claim.
     
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  13. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

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    If the perp sees the defensive gun, surely the business end of a .357 Magnum revolver is going to be far more impressive than the business end of a NAA 22 caliber mini revolver.
     
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  14. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Evidence and a nice chi-square or other appropriate statistic would be more convincing.

    BTW, you said you wanted a backup for a 642. Most folks consider the 642 as backup or a gun carried when constrained by dress or in a NPE. You mention a 686. That's a big belt gun. If you carry a 642 on your belt, most don't. You can - I only do if it's for a match and that's the rules. If it's a belt gun - then any of the G19 size and style semis are a much better choice. Yep, some folks are carrying the smaller 9s or the 380s. The latter make sense for the recoil sensitive if the gun is one that is a soft shooter. Not all 380s are depending on action. The smaller belt 9s, like the G43s, Shields, etc. are harder to shoot. However, most folks never really test their ability with them, but research shows smaller guns have poorer performance esp. among those who don't train with them.

    This being said - the NAAs are last ditch weapons but they have been effective and there are no data suggesting differential no shot fired successful DGU rates. "I would think" is not evidence. Derringers in today's world are an affectation, only for CAS. Except for that awesome 50 cal Black Powder Czech derringer that those folks buy for avoid permit laws!
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2022
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  15. Meeks36

    Meeks36 Member

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    Love my “wife’s” lcpII and my Ruger lc9. Both on the small side. Wouldn’t feel bad about a snub 38. As a back up. Nowadays wouldn’t be my primary. Unless I had three on me. New York reload.
     
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  16. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

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    I would like to know more about this type of pistol.
     
  17. golden

    golden Member

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    I normally do not carry a back up gun as my agency does not allow it.

    Off duty, I go for maximum concealment, so I use a pocket carry. For nearly a year now, I have been carrying a SIG 365. It has the power of a 9m.m. with a very well thought out design that is probably as small a 9m.m. as I can shoot well.
    I tried the micro 9m.m. pistols and found them just too hard to shoot. I could go through 50 rounds and that would be it for me. The SIG 365 is just large enough to be usable, while not especially comfortable. I have switched to HORNADY 100 grain FTX "Lite" jhp ammo as it kicks a little less than the FEDERAL HST 124 grain ammo I prefer in a 9m.m.

    For about the 5 years preceding my purchase of the SIG 365, I carried a GLOCK 42. For a pocket carry, it was perfect, except for the .380ACP caliber. It was slim, just large enough for me to shoot it as well as a mid size 9m.m. and had night sights. It was so light, even fully loaded, I would forget it was there and have to check just to be sure.

    The SIG 365 is heavier, especially when loaded, so I am always aware it is in my pocket.

    In the past, I have also carried a .38 Special, 5 shot S&W model 38 before I switched to a steel framed, DAO model 36. I also on occasion carried a CHARTER ARMS Undercover .38 Special. I was carrying a service issue semi-auto and decided to switch to a semi-auto for off duty carry.

    I tried several with varying results.
    1. BERETTA Tomcat 3032 in .32ACP. This pistol worked very well for me and my wife after trying it decided she needed it more than I did. I ended up getting a second one.

    2. KEL TEC P32 in .32ACP. BROKE THE FIRST TIME I TOOK IT TO THE RANGE. KEL TEC fixed it, but I lost faith in it.

    3. NORTH AMERICAN ARMS (NAA) .32ACP Guardian. This is about the smallest .32ACP I have seen and with out a doubt, the most unpleasant to shoot. I limit myself to 25 rounds at a time at the range. The recoil is just miserable. A lot of this has to due with the small size of the gun and the matching small size of the grip. It was much worse than the BERETTA Tomcat or KEL TEC P32. It is even twice as heavy as the KEL TEC.

    4. SIG 232 .380ACP, a really great .380 pistol, but simply too bulky for pocket carry. It would print through most of my clothes. On the other hand, it is light (aluminum framed version), has a great trigger for a small gun, very good sightrs and the SIG de-cocker, so no need to worry about a safety. As a belt gun, I would prefer it to just about any 5 shot .38 Special the I have shot.

    5. WALTHER PPK in .32ACP. I carried this gun for years. It was small enough that is did not print in a pocket carry, yet shot well. I found it utterly reliable, accurate and just large enough to get a good grip on. Strangely, when I bought a .32ACP WALTHER PP, the slightly large pistol the PPK is derived from, the PPK was easier to shoot. The squared off shape of the PP grip was the culprit and the rounded PPK rear of the grip was much more comfortable.

    6. GLOCK 42 which my wife liked so much, it joined the first BERETTA Tomcat as her pistol. I replaced it with the night sight equipped gun I carried before the SIG 365.

    7. Finally, the SIG 365.

    I used to carry a S&W 681 on duty and it was a big, heavy gun. It was great to shoot at qualifications and would be a first choice for a revolver in gun fight. However, I doubt you will want to carry it all day. I went back to the issued S&W model 13 for off duty carry, because the L-frame was such a drag at the end of the day.
    A lighter gun like the 9m.m. with the J-frame as a backup sounds like a better idea.

    If my agency would permit a back up gun, I would go with the GLOCK 42. I prefer the SIG 365 as a primary weapon, but I never forget I am carrying it. The GLOCK 42 simply disappears.

    Jim
     
  18. Great Scot

    Great Scot Member

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    I have a friend who is a long time county deputy sheriff. He ALWAYS has a NAA .22 magnum in his pocket for backup. He has had many more dangerous encounters than I’ll ever have, so I trust his judgment. And he is a gun guy and could carry whatever he wanted. He likes the simplicity and reliability of the NAAs. This is not to be taken as the last word on these minis for carry, just an observation from a civilian with police friends. Thanks.
     
  19. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    I've shot the G42s and 642s in USPSA small carry gun matches, IDPA and specialized close in matches. I can shoot the small guns decently and hit the targets (but stress and real life is an unknown). They are not the easiest to shoot but trained folks can, as I said before. You need to train with them. I carry the small guys when carry is constrained. Normally, EDC is a Glock 26. I shoot that pretty well and it's grip size width etc. corresponds to the bigger Glock and I like it.
     
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  20. ctdair1

    ctdair1 Member

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    Seecamp .32
     
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  21. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

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    Was looking one over at the gun shop a couple weeks ago. Nice small pocket pistol, but changing the magazine is a slower process. First, it does not drop out but has to be pulled out. Second, it is awkward to insert a new magazine, have to push a lever back and work it in at the same time. I tried it and the salesperson had to help me. OPther than that, a very nice pistol. I think it was in the $300s range.
     
  22. chicharrones

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    Blowback action .380s tend to have sharper felt recoil than locked breech .380s due to how a locked breech tends to spread out the time of recoil felt at the shooting hand.

    From my own experience, a NAA Guardian in .32 ACP (blowback) has about the same felt recoil as a Ruger LCP in .380 (locked breech). Yet, a Remington RM380 in .380 (locked breech) feels softer to shoot than an LCP.

    In the case of the Remington, it's slightly wider which fills the hand better. Plus, it has a larger/heavier slide (with corresponding easier to rack recoil spring) that seems to soften recoil further, as well. An interesting note is that the company that originally designed and made the "RM380" (Rorhbaugh) made the exact same sized gun in 9mm. Which obviously leans to the same gun with the same action being softer to shoot in .380 than in 9mm.

    In another comparison from my own experience, a CZ82 in 9mm Mak (blowback) has sharper felt recoil than the similarly sized and weighted CZ75D PCR in 9mm Parabellum (locked breech). Considering the 9mm Para is generally more powerful than the 9mm Mak . . . hmmm.

    Another thing to note:
    * A small and thin blowback pistol

    ** A small, but wide gripped blowback pistol

    *** A small and thin locked breech pistol

    Which fully corresponds with my experience with the Taurus TCP732 (.32 ACP) vs. the NAA Guardian. The larger, but lighter TCP732 (locked breech) is much softer to shoot.

    Having said all that, it really seems like most pocket pistols these days are locked breech and chambered in .380 ACP. With higher powered options in 9mm. So for minimal felt recoil, I suppose one ought to try the widest gun that they can successfully draw quickly from their pocket.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2022
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  23. chicharrones

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    That mag release is a fantastic design for a last resort pocket pistol that you don't expect to do quick mag changes with, IMO. If you've ever drawn a pistol out of your pocket with the magazine popped off the mag catch, you may question the American preference for service pistol mag releases on tiny pocket guns.

    Of course, don't forget that the Seecamp is also a little bitty blowback action gun. Ought to hit the hand about like a NAA Guardian when being fired.
     
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  24. unclenunzie

    unclenunzie Contributing Member

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    Odd as it may seem, my smaller Seecamp shot more easily for me than the NAA. Just the way they fit differently in the hand I guess.
     
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  25. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

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    You are right. I now recall the sales person telling me about that benefit of not accidentally loosing the magazine. Hmmm, if that gun is still there next time I go, I may have to grab it. Probably still quicker than reloading a revolver--for most people.
     
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