Breaking: Omaha, NE mall shooting

[Travis Lee]

Tecumseh:

So with NO DATA WHATSOEVER you figured it was AT LEAST as likely that this shooter was a member of "Christian Identity", or "World Church of the Creator", or SOME other lunatic fringey so-called "Christian terrorist" group, as an Islamic extremist?!

I think I've seen over-hyped documentaries about those outfits and I doubt you could find more than a couple dozen members if your life depended on it.

I can find HUNDREDS of citations of terrorist murders committed by Muslims without straining myself.

The Trolley Square Shooter was a MUSLIM Bosnian.

A couple years ago an Egyptian man went on a shooting rampage at an El Al counter at LAX airport.

The DC sniper was a MUSLIM, and his illegal Jamaican sidekick.

And oh, yeah, and there was that thing that happened in September 2001....

So It's not extremely bizarre for some people to perk up their ears and half expect to hear that THIS mass killer's name might just be Muhommed.


The story which seems to be shaking out at this point is that this latest shooter was chronically depressed, using illegal drugs, and psychiatric medications, thrown away by his family, and finally fired from his employment, and ditched by his girlfriend.

Gee, what a shock. Like we never heard of that profile.

I hear not a whisper of your vast christian terrorist conspiracy fantasy, except from you. Time has passed, more facts are known. Get off that kick, or you will just embarass yourself further.

--Travis--

 

[#shooter]

I have heard reports that this guy wanted to be (in)famous. I think why these people don’t just off themselves is that they are mad at the world and want vengeance. They adhere to the philosophy that nothing fixes a bad mood better than spreading it around. I think the reality of CCW is starting to get main stream and part of the shooter’s motive is the media’s fault. Extensive coverage, pictures, life history, etc is given to the shooters in each case and yet the victims are soon forgotten. I think the media has a responsibility to report these incidents with out using the shooters name or picture, otherwise copycats will proliferate. Unfortunately, Americans are fascinated by criminals. Jesse James, Bonnie & Clyde, Al Capone, Charles Manson, Harris & Klebold. It is embedded in entrainment such as Goodfellas and the Sopranos. My heart goes out to all those victims that will not have a merry Christmas this year.

 

[Sistema1927]

Let's all take a deep breath. I haven't read all of the responses in this thread, but enough of them to see that many of the reactions are not helpful.

What do we know?

1) There are hurting families who are in need of our prayers and support.
2) There is evil in the world.
3) That no matter how well we prepare, bad things might happen to us over which we have no control.
4) We weren't there, only a full investigation will reveal what really happened.

Honestly, all of the rest is speculation.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Not all of the Christian Identity movement is based in Christianity. But the majority is.

Can you post a link to where you are pulling this information?

I've posted the link to the FBI project Megiddo files on other threads. There are a lot more places you can find the information.

You seem to have heard only Christian Identity propaganda.
Guess what, some people lie.

PS
Army of God is connected with Christian Identity. Eric Rudolph has admitted that his bombing spree was Politically motivated and that though born Catholic and hoping for forgiveness he hoped to die a Catholic, his association with the openly anti-Catholic Christian Identity movement shows that he was not a practicing Catholic during that time and his preference for Nietzche indicate his Atheist leanings.
Mc Veigh openly admitted to being Agnostic during his bomber days and only one statement made after his conviction indicates he had begun to think God does exist.

 

[ozwyn]

wrong focus

I think the religion discussions are way OT given the real problem is how will the brady bunch use this event and how much emphasis on these events ends up in their part for heller, and how many more of these events occur before the SC makes the big ruling.

I only HOPE they ry and use this to push through local laws and DO NOT use this to try and get a Heller ruling that attacks individual rights.

How this event gets manipulated to try and remove the rights of all of us is a lot more important than some half-baked religious comments.

 

[JWarren]

Tecumseh wrote:

McVeigh was a Christian Identity movement Christian.

Lumping the CI Movement into Christianity is a very narrow interpretation of Christianity-- especially since practically every denomination of Christianity has denounced their "movement."

From my brief reading of the views of CI followers, it primarily focuses on interracial offspring, citing some obscure passage about "Bastards" not entering Heaven. On the surface of this, I would conclude that it really isn't a "racist" movement since one could extrapolate that if you are 100% "pure" of any race, you are OK-- just not if you have any "mixed" heritage.

But then you find that they have some view that the true "Chosen" of God are Caucasians. OK... now it becomes a "While Supremist" Movement.

It seems that the CI movement are FAR more worried about race than they are about God.

Frankly, I find it fascinating that it seems that they are co-opting a Middle-Eastern religion (non-Caucasian) and somehow making it all about Caucasians. Yeah, it doesn't really make much sense to me, either.

I basically reject the whole "chosen" of God thing for anyone. I don't believe in a God that plays favorites. It takes a hell of a lot more than what group you are born into in order to be a "worthy" person.


But I digress...


Tecumseh, you may want to reconsider lumping CI into Christianity. The Devil can quote scripture for his own purpose. I could found a church that draws verbage from Christian and Jewish texts and call it a "Christian" movement. Yet, it could have absolutely nothing in common with the actual teachings of those documents.

Why do I suggest you reconsider? Well, you open the door to lumping every radical group into their mainstream counterparts. I've seen you post in the past that it is a fallacy to lump radical Islam into the majority of Islam.

If you are espousing the need to lump CI into Christianity, you destroy your own credibility. You can't call for or expect seperate consideration for radical Muslims-- or anyone else-- once you are unwilling to give the same consideration to Christianity.

Which is OK by me. Just let me know. As I seem to say daily these days: Either everything is OK, or nothing is OK. Just let us know what rules you would have us play by.

As for me, I will continue make considerations for break-away groups and radical elements. Before my words come back to haunt me, I DO concede that I do have a hightened scrutinity than I did prior to 9/11-- and I make no applogies for that fact.


-- John

 

[98C5]

I agree with Sistema. Look at the picture as a whole. The kid was depressed. Probably thought his parents didn't want him or love him. He recently lost his girlfriend AND his job. He STOLE the SKS and figured: "I cannot do anything right, I'm a loser, I'm going out with a bang(literally)"

Arguing on the whole religion thing is just silly. We all need to be proactive and learn from this. And lets make the anti's learn that 'no gun' signs are not going to prevent these horrendous acts.

 

[30 cal slob]

1. reportedly had a felony drug conviction - ineligible to
own a firearm

2. allegedly stole the sks from his step-dad

3. was reportedly whacked out on psychotrophic medication
(antidepressants). which make you fear death less.

4. NE recently implemented concealed carry, but surprise
surprise the mall was posted off-limits.

5. cnn, fox, and MSM continue to feed the active shooter
phenomenon by posting this guy's picture all over the place,
thereby posthumously giving the loser what he wanted all along.

6. initial press reports had the shooter as a young black male. dont' you love the press?

 

[Geno]

30 Cal:

Thank-you!!! Finally common sense has come back to the thread. We need facts, not speculation. Let's keep this thread THR!

Some questions needing facts:

The kid wanted to go out in glory? Did the media make that possible? What is the solution?

The mall prohibited CCW? Does that not make it possible then for unstable people to engage in such misdeeds? What is the solution?

The mall prohibited CCW? Did they provide the needed protections for customers? If not, is that not a tort? Is the solution to sue the "powers that be" at the mall? Would that send a message to honor my rights, or in the absence provide genuine security, not security 6 minutes after it's over?

Doc2005

 

[TexasRifleman]

initial press reports had the shooter as a young black male

Witnesses reported a young black male in Camo being arrested/detained/whatever out front of the mall. I don't think you can blame the press too much for that one. Sounds like the cops were grabbing everyone in camo in the early action. Reasonable I'd say in the heat of the moment.

The sheeple didn't notice a rifle being carried through the mall, you think they noticed skin color?

How do you not notice a guy walking through the mall carrying a rifle?.... amazing

 

[Autolycus]

Can you post some links to me saying that radical Islam is not Islam at all? I believe I have said not to lump all Muslims together as terrorists.

Christian Identity is an off shoot of Christianity. That is all I have said. It takes racial prejudice and ues religion to justify it. It is essentially a Christianity in which they feel they are God's chosen people vesus the Jews in a traditional sense.

Its theology is Christian based.

I still want to know why nobody got their panties in a wad when someone else suggested this was the work of Islamic extremists, and people got angry when I suggested it could be Christian extremists?

Either way this is a topic best suited for Armed Polite Society. If you wish to discuss it there I would be more than happy to.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Well I'm still wound up but I'll post this and let it rest for now.

What are their real claims? They are as follows:

The actual chosen people of the Bible are the Anglo-Saxon white Europeans descended from the lost 10 tribes of ancient Israel who have been secretly hiding in Europe. Hebrew is actually the ancient tongue of the Germans, Celts, etc. (Jesus was also British) Thus Europeans are the Jews of the Bible!

All modern Jews are imposters, descended from a Turkish tribe called the Khazars that converted to Judaism. Thus Jews are the gentiles! See Khazars.

There were really two creations: one for the non-whites, and another for Adam and Eve, who are also British. (Adam and the Adamites) Thus the Bible is a lie! See Adamites
Who are the people that Christian Identity and Willie Martin cite as experts? Communists, atheists, Nazis, assorted 19th century cults, and their own revelations directly from Jesus/God himself!

This is what Willie Martin says about Christians:

"ALL TOO MANY ARE BEING LED TO FALSE GODS, BECAUSE THE CLERGY OF ORGANIZED RELIGION, EVANGELISTS, AND TEACHERS HAVE FAILED THE COMMISSION, THEY CLAIM, WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY ALMIGHTY GOD AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST; BUT THEIR WORKS PROVE, THAT IS A LIE, THEIR WORKS PROVE THEY ARE REALLY WORKING FOR SATAN!"
Thus, your local pastor is a Satanist unless they are a member of the Christian Identity cult.

Their goal is nothing less than wrapping our Lord Jesus Christ in a Nazi uniform and destroying both His Word and the traditions of this great nation.

For an alternative perspective on "Christian Identity", check out:
Aryan Nations

Let's put these people on trial and decide if Jesus is a Nazi or the Son of God.

BTW
Numerous Islamic Scholars and Journalists have writen articles in which they admit that the vast majority of Terrorists are Muslims.

 

[Walkalong]

Society has a serious problem and it has nothing to do with guns.

Yep.

Did you catch the piece on the news where the news guy said it appeared that what was used was a "high powered rifle"..."an M16 type" .....:banghead:

This was before they knew for sure what was used.

I don't check a thread for a day and we are argueing religion

 

[JWarren]

Sounds like the cops were grabbing everyone in camo in the early action.

I read this, too. It really amazes me that pre-formulated ideas get into this. I've yet to figure out why someone would decide to dress in camoflage if they were going to a mall for such a thing. (yeah, I do know about urban camoflage.) It seems that such an individual would stick out like a sore thumb.

It seems that wearing camoflage is now part of the profile for people intent on doing things like this. They'd get an eye-opener here-- It's deer season. But perhaps Mossy Oak is excluded in the profile....




-- John

 

[feedthehogs]

.edited

 

[Master Blaster]

[Sarcasm] Actually this is all the fault of those first person shooter games that teach children to kill. That and the liberal media who glorify gun violence with rapper videos, and movies that teach and glorify improper firearm use. [End Sarcasm/].

The fact is that when you have a free society you are always going to have some nuts who commit mass murder. In fact it happens in totalitarian societies as well, witness Belsan in Russia, where it was terrorists, or the theatre kidnapping and mass murder in Moscow, also terrorists.

But the worst mass murders are not commited with firearms, usually bombs are the weapon of choice there.

Also had an "expert" former FBI agent saying that metal detectors is the only thing that could have prevented this tragedy. What? He also said that if you find yourself in this situation "Hunker down and call 911." He was serious

Actually if everyone was required to only shop naked, then we would have dead naked people.

The only way to stop this from happening...... actaully there isnt any way to stop this stuff from happening....

Way more folks are killed and injured in Auto accidents every year, but thats not as sensational or newsworthy, becaus it happens to at least 200 people every single day.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"I think the reality of CCW is starting to get main stream and part of the shooter’s motive is the media’s fault. Extensive coverage, pictures, life history, etc is given to the shooters in each case and yet the victims are soon forgotten."

Absolutely! If the media would vilify these idiots and portray them as the low down no good loser cowards they are, instead of hyping them up as some dangerous tough guy, then the mental midgets that buy into this stuff might just off themselves before taking it out randomly on the world.

 

[Dave in PA]

I read this, too. It really amazes me that pre-formulated ideas get into this. I've yet to figure out why someone would decide to dress in camoflage if they were going to a mall for such a thing. (yeah, I do know about urban camoflage.) It seems that such an individual would stick out like a sore thumb.

It seems that wearing camoflage is now part of the profile for people intent on doing things like this. They'd get an eye-opener here-- It's deer season. But perhaps Mossy Oak is excluded in the profile....

And to think I just got my free Bushnell jacket in the mail this week. (size L not the XL I asked for)

Hopefully the growing message that a few legal CCWs could have minimized this will continue to come up. Thoughts and prayers for those who lost loved ones and those who are shaken up about this.

 

[308win]

The Columbus Ohio Dispatch article emphasized that the shooter was:

Armed with a rifle police said was an SKS assault rifle, he went to the sprawling Westroads Mall, filled with shoppers three weeks before Christmas. He had a military-style haircut and a black backpack, and wore a camouflage vest.

If malls, Christmas shopping and shoppers in general, military-style haircuts, black backpacks, and camouflage vests were banned we wouldn't have these tragedies.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Either way this is a topic best suited for Armed Polite Society.

Correct. At least not here. You could have helped end the OT thread veer by just posting this and not the former continuation of bickering.

Posted at the same time:

Well I'm still wound up but I'll post this and let it rest for now.

That's not how it works on the high road. Let it rest before you "post this."

Will you two please take it somewhere else.

Or, as I have to tell my 5 year old, there will be consequences. This is your warning.

Back the the topic at hand (media misreporting of crimes involving a firearm), Fox News Radio reported this morning that he used an "AK-47 assault rifle."

 

[JWarren]

Can you post some links to me saying that radical Islam is not Islam at all? I believe I have said not to lump all Muslims together as terrorists.

By saying not to lump all Muslims together as terrorist, you just provided me the link. I think it is safe to say that the "terrorist" element of Islam is the same as the "radical" element. Of course, all radicals are not terrorists, and quite possibly all terrorists are not radical. But the correlation has thusfar held well enough to be wary.

I never suggested that you said that "radical Islam is not Islam. I don't think you believe that, and nor do I. Both are drawn from the same teachings-- if interpreted differently. The same with radical Christian elements.

But if you make the effort to not lump radical Islam into mainstream Islam in terms of beliefs, then you must do the the same with Christianity.

I still want to know why nobody got their panties in a wad when someone else suggested this was the work of Islamic extremists, and people got angry when I suggested it could be Christian extremists?

Fair question. I really don't know why. EVERY group has their extremists. I suppose some feel that lumping those extremists into their own beliefs somehow becomes an attack upon them or their beliefs. It is short-sighted since something like CI has no more in common in terms of ideology with-- say Baptists-- than they do with any other religion. Christians should not feel threatened by those radicals.

Either way this is a topic best suited for Armed Polite Society. If you wish to discuss it there I would be more than happy to.

We are in agreement. Would you like to join me in a call to drop the religion/extremists discussion from this thread and take it to APS?

After all, it has absolutely nothing to do with this tragedy. The killer had no religious or extremist motivations.




-- John

 

[Geno]

Why are we talking religion here? Unless I missed something, and yes I have read this whole thread, I don't see the connection of religious debate to the facts of this event.

Let's ask some questions, and seek some factual answers to those same.

Doc2005

 

[Ash]

Tecumseh, the truth is, this guy likes guns. We all know those kind of people cannot be trusted and have no business in society, right? After all, he did kill with a gun, which was naturally a phallic extension, compensation for something.

The thing is, you have made the most basic of mistakes. You say CI is Christian and continue to assume it is because of theology being Christian-based. It is not. Indeed, the entire concept of a "chosen race" comes from the Old Testament, which is Jewish. In any case, it is of no relevance. Should this organization have begun in, say, Iraq, it would have been Islamic. Had it found its roots in India, it would be Hindu or perhaps Buddist. It is a hate organization built upon ignorance.

You use it as an attack on Christians, which is a pot and kettle thing. You are interested in firearms, and so have more in common with this guy than I do because I am a Christian. It matters little that I am also interested in firearms, that I have owned SKS's in the past. In any case, Christian Identity, as has been pointed out, is heretical and has nothing at all to do with Christian belief.

Now, most Muslims are not terrorists, yet most terrorism is Islamic. It is a natural response, given government warnings and Tom Clancy's "Teeth of the Tiger." Now, I have a friend who is Muslim yet do not fear he will strap a bomb on. Indeed, he's as NRA as the rest of us and his gun collection is far nicer than mine. But the fact remains that most terrorism is committed by Muslims. It is therefore not racist to assume that a terrorist attack - or in this case a suicide/mass murder, was an islamic attack.

Did you know most serial killers are white males? It is not sexist therefore to have that as the beginning of any investigation into mass-murder. Given your signature, what else could we assume from your post other than an effort to jab at Christians?

Ash

 

[jfh]

TAKE THE RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION OF THIS INCIDENT TO APS.

Actually, Henry probably should lock this thread, and a new one that discusses the salient issues with the facts-as-we-currently-know-them could be started.

Jim H.

 

[armoredman]

All I see is an abuser of illegal drugs, a felon in possession of a stolen firearm, who then used it to kill 9 unarmed people in a place where they were not allowed to lawfully defend themselves. Every law in place failed. The police response was very good, but no one can drive quick enough to stop a monster from pulling a trigger.
Ths 19 year old was facing more criminal charges stemming from an arrest only 11 days earlier about underage alcohol posession, and was facing several other misdemeanor charges , after being fired from McDonalds for stealing $17 from the register.

I don't think the "honor student" line will work for this one, Brady Bunch.