Cops point gun at man thinking he is sniper

[Erik]

I see nothing which could be interpreted as a violation of law by anyone, though perhaps an argument could be made that the videographer could be charged for tying up first responder resources at an active shooter crime scene for his amusement.

Filming first responders is fine; realizing your filming is being mistaken for criminal activity which is actively diverting attention from an active shooter crime scene , calling your buddy about it, and continuing said activity "for kicks" is not fine.

 

[PPGMD]

The camera man stated that the officers were "like 100 yards away"
Not that far for a gun deigned to have an effective target range of 550 meters

It's at least 200 yards distance, you can see over another building when he zooms out.

The 5.56 round at 500 yards is at the extreme end of the it's effective range.

 

[Millwright]

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, "What a Maroon !!!"

Had those officers been less professional or more charged with adrenaline over 'shots fired', we'd be looking at his obit........

What, exactly, did the cops in the Rodney King incident do wrong ? Read up on the LAPD policy on arresting resisting subjects in force at the time of the incident. Darryl Gates was its author. Subsequent to that remunerative travesty of justice Mr. King was involved in other criminal enterprises involving drugs and force.......

History is chock full of examples of pointing anything at cops with guns supercharged with adrenaline is a bad idea. Hickock shot his Deputy and friend following a gun fight....... >MW

 

[joab]

It's at least 200 yards distance, you can see over another building when he zooms out.

The 5.56 round at 500 yards is at the extreme end of the it's effective range

And even at 200 it would be well within those limits (but I'll take the first hand account as to the distance)

500 yard shots at man size targets can be taken with ease by anyone that can shoot the gun

It's done regularly by recruits in BCT

 

[RKBABob]

Its pretty obvious that the cops saw a big telephoto lens pointed at them, and thought "rifle scope!" We don't know how close they were to the cameraman... unless we take that idiot's word for it on the film.

The thing that strikes me is how steady the footage is, especially at fool zoom. Usually the footage would get all shaky at full zoom... unless he braced himself and the camera against a railing, much as a sniper might do.

 

[Jim K]

The proliferation of "cameras" has gotten quite a few people killed or hurt. In two cases I know of, a budding movie director was "filming" a motorcycle stunt and the cyclist was killed. In one of the cases, an unsuspecting motorist who came on the scene was seriously injured when ran off the road trying to avoid the "movie set", which was a public highway. The state now has a law banning such film "stunts" and making any and all participants liable to charges of voluntary manslaughter or reckless endangerment if anything happens.

How does anyone justify pointing a gun, or what appears to be a gun, at the police, while using cover like a sniper. You KNOW he was pretending to be a shooter, and he knew very well what the police would think. He was trying to provoke the police into shooting back so he could get a thrill and sue them. Being really stupid, he didn't even think that if they did shoot back he might not be alive to sue anyone. Idiot!

BTW, that kind of thing is the reason states and cities require real movie companies to obtain permits and cooperate with the police when filming on location. Then the cops know what is going on and don't mistake fantasy for real life.

Jim

 

[Hatchman]

550 meters is not the same as 500 yards.

 

[mgregg85]

Damn, I think I about soiled myself the first time the guy's camera shook like he was dropping it. Thought for sure he had been hit.

Has anyone here ever seen those videos of the soldiers in Iraq looking through their bedroom window right when a sniper tries to shoot through it at them?

 

[Roccobro]

At :31 the filmer shows a octagonal looking rod pointing out his side (towards the officers). Do you think it would look like a gun from 1-200 yards?

I bet the person/people the mustached cop was yelling to at the beginning was his buddies to go secure that building and question the filmer/possible shooter.

Darwin was this close to taking out another unfit animal.

Justin

 

[joab]

550 meters is not the same as 500 yards.

It's less closer. to 450 meters, which are shots regularly taken by recruits in basic
Which would mean that a 500 yard shot is well away from the "extreme end of the it's effective range" of the rifle and round

 

[PPGMD]

It's less closer. to 450 meters, which are shots regularly taken by recruits in basic
Which would mean that a 500 yard shot is well away from the "extreme end of the it's effective range" of the rifle and round

How much energy has the round lost? At 500 yards the 5.56 is about as effective as a 22LR at the muzzle (200-250ft/lbs compared to 175-200ft/lbs for the 22LR). Hitting a target is much different from killing a target.

 

[.cheese.]

both parties were stupid and in the wrong

the video-wielding kid was wrong for not ceasing his activities after realizing that they were being misunderstood

the cops were also wrong for keeping their non-scoped guns aimed at him. Sorry cops, but you're not going to get your bullet that far and without a scope you're probably not going to make that shot even if you could. Maybe a scope or a pair of binoculars would serve you better so you could determine what you're looking at in the first place. Pointing CQB carbines in a general direction is entirely pointless.... not to mention if it WERE a sniper, you'd be dead considering you have NO cover and are 100% exposed.

Now... do I win a prize? Somebody bring me some chocolate milk.

 

[joab]

How much energy has the round lost? At 500 yards the 5.56 is about as effective as a 22LR at the muzzle (200-250ft/lbs compared to 175-200ft/lbs for the 22LR). Hitting a target is much different from killing a target.

Tell that to the Drills that had me shooting to that distance, and beyond, and the DOD committee (or who ever) that adopted the round

 

[PPGMD]

Tell that to the Drills that had me shooting to that distance, and beyond, and the DOD committee (or who ever) that adopted the round

War is a bit different then the street, what is considered acceptable accuracy and stopping power in a war zone is completely unacceptable on the street.

The patrol carbine isn't being deployed so the officers could take long range shots (at least at many agencies), it was deployed for North Hollywood Shoot Out cases where they need to defeat body armor.

I personally consider these the effective deployment ranges of the following weapons and calibers:
Pistol (9/40/45) 25 yards
Shotgun 100 yards
Carbine (5.56) 300 yards
Scoped Rifle (.223) 500 yards
Sniper Rifle (308) 800 yards
Sniper Rifle (338LM) 600+ yards

Personal skill can lower these ranges quite a bit, but those are where the curve starts to go down hill for most of those rounds (except the 338LM which I have no data beyond 1000 yards, but it comes in it's own at around 600 yards).

 

[Erik]

Though the actual distance is unknown, it is well within the range of those rifles to expect reasonable hits.
---

I take the object at 31 to be the window frame.

 

[joab]

I personally consider these the effective deployment ranges of the following weapons and calibers:

What in your personal experience should lead me to believe you over the military as to the effective killing range of a weapon they have a great deal of experience with

War is a bit different then the street, what is considered acceptable accuracy and stopping power in a war zone is completely unacceptable on the street.

I believe the high road response would be, hog wash

Besides the fact that the distance dispute is between 100 and 200 yards, which would fall into what you, in your personal consideration, would agree is within the deployment range of the gun in civilian urban situations where the definition accuracy somehow changes from military urban situations

 

[MechAg94]

I agree. 100 yards is easy with decent iron sights. 200 yards also at a man size target (for me at least).

the cops were also wrong for keeping their non-scoped guns aimed at him. Sorry cops, but you're not going to get your bullet that far and without a scope you're probably not going to make that shot even if you could. Maybe a scope or a pair of binoculars would serve you better so you could determine what you're looking at in the first place. Pointing CQB carbines in a general direction is entirely pointless.... not to mention if it WERE a sniper, you'd be dead considering you have NO cover and are 100% exposed.

You don't need a scope to throw a bullet that far. The bullet with fly that far just fine whether you aim it or not. Most shooters can shoot iron sights out to 100 or 200 yards, even AR carbines. A scope or other glass might let them identify the camera, but they didn't need one to shoot the guy.

 

[silverlance]

Was the "sniper" well within AR range? Oh, hell yes.
Would the shot have likely been well advised to take? Not really, especially if the "sniper" was under cover.
The question, is, then - why point a gun at someone if you know that you can't take the shot?

This goes back to "I'll carry a gun but it wont be loaded" or "Ill point my gun at someone from my doorstep, but if he tries to get it ill slam the door and call the cops". If you are not certain that you can take the shot, DON'T CLEAR LEATHER.

I envision the conversation going on like this:

"oh crap there's a sniper"
"where?"
"there!"
"where?"
"over there [points finger repeatedly]"
"ohhh! let me get my rifle."
clump clump clump clump
"okay, i've got my rifle from trunk."
"dude, I think that's not a gun."
"what?!"
"I think it's some idiot with a camera talking on a cell phone."
"dude, we've got a bunch of people watching us, and both Homeland Security and SWAT's been called. we can't just pack up our rifles and go home after all this."
"boss? what should we do?"
"doh! okay, hold position and look tough! we can't give the ordinary people any sign of weakness!"
.....
"um, sir?"
"what!?"
"my arm's getting tired. how much longer are we going to do this?"

=P

 

[PPGMD]

What in your personal experience should lead me to believe you over the military as to the effective killing range of a weapon they have a great deal of experience with

Based on listening to the expirence of those that have used those weapon systems (or similar weapon systems) to kill others (both by talking to them in person, and through written word), and by looking at ballistic charts for the rounds. Sure you MAY kill the person beyond those ranges, but what about target identification?

It still stands were those officers able to tell if that yahoo was a sniper, or just some idiot with a camera at that range? I highly doubt it, which is why even police snipers very rarely engage targets beyond 100 yards.

 

[.cheese.]

You don't need a scope to throw a bullet that far. The bullet with fly that far just fine whether you aim it or not. Most shooters can shoot iron sights out to 100 or 200 yards, even AR carbines. A scope or other glass might let them identify the camera, but they didn't need one to shoot the guy.

need? no.

but this seemed to be in the middle of a city.

Also - I'd like to correct you on this:

Most shooters can shoot iron sights out to 100 or 200 yards, even AR carbines.

If you define "most shooters" as anybody who has ever shot a gun.... I strongly disagree. Even if talking about casual shooters I'd disagree. A man size target at 200 yards with iron sights is something an enthusiast could do.... sure... somebody trained in the military.... I'd imagine so although I wouldn't know for sure...... but from what I've heard at least locally, most cops qualify with their firearms to the bare minimum level. Maybe I'm cynical, but I just don't see your average cop being able to safely make a 200 yard shot upwards hitting a man size target. 100 yards probably ... but from the video it looked like much more than 100 yards. Of course, I could be wrong considering the video is 2D. I'm just thinking:

gravity + windage + fairly weak cartridge + tiny looking target at that distance + iron sights + people working or living behind all those windows that the cops are surely facing + how unlikely it is the cops are trained to hit targets from that far = disaster

With all those windows with people working or living.... I sure as heck would prefer that they have a scope!

And personally I don't think a .223 is anywhere near the right cartridge for the job ... especially not out of a carbine.

 

[joab]

somebody trained in the military.... I'd imagine so although I wouldn't know for sure

I don't have to imagine and I do know for sure
Even a 200 yard shot is a simple feat with the AR type platform for anyone that has the bare minimum of training with it

but from what I've heard

personally I don't think

I just don't see

I'd imagine so although I wouldn't know for sure

Hmm, nothing like using facts to back up your argument

And personally I don't think a .223 is anywhere near the right cartridge for the job ... especially not out of a carbine.

Even though the gun has a 500 meter effective target range?
# Max Effective Range for a Point Target - 500 meters

 

[.cheese.]

whatever. I'm not going to argue that point. You have your opinion, I have mine. As for facts? What do you want, a 400 page report with sources? Give me a break. We both shoot ARs and have a decent idea of what they can do... enough said.

Let's say you're right.... they could have taken the shot with iron sights, or even let's say they have holographic sights on there. Ok.... they shoot...

oh wait... they just killed a kid with no gun.

Hmmm... that scope would sure have helped distinguish between a gun and a camera.

... or... they shoot.

Oh man... look at that. It hit so close. Just 10 feet below the kid going through the window below him hitting an attorney sitting as his desk.

Seriously... there are plenty of reasons why pointing those ARs at the kid was stupid.

I'm sure there are people on this forum who could confidently take that shot. I still don't think they should.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

once again folks who have btdt are corrected by those who have read about it

 

[PPGMD]

Hmm, nothing like using facts to back up your argument

Any so ROEs employed by departments for trained snipers using scoped bolt action rifles chambered in 308 are what chopped liver?

Even though the gun has a 500 meter effective target range?
# Max Effective Range for a Point Target - 500 meters

No one ever said that the cartridge wouldn't be able to hit the target. We are talking about the effective range for urban usage and stopping power.

Since it's pretty much immpossible to get any descent shot placement without a scope you are depending on the rounds ability to wound and it's energy that it imparts on the target.

From the typical AR-15 rifle the at muzzle energy is around 1200 ft/lbs (depeneding on the round used). At 500 yards it's 200-250 ft/lbs, that only a bit more then what a 22LR rifle has at the muzzle.

Add in the fact that it's a 1-2MOA rifle depending on ammo, and rifle so you are looking at a 5-10" grouping from the gun, add in the shooters inaccuracy the effective range of the weapon system is much less then 500 yards.

And all this is besides the point since that has little to do with this shot.

 

[RobTzu]

We never took 500 yard shots when I was in Army Basic (1999). I have been to and qualified at Rifle Ranges at Fort Leavenworth, Fort Eustis, Fort Riley, Fort Jackson, and Camp Chaffee. The longest range shot we take in the basic Rifle Marksmanship Qualification is at 300meters. Now maybe Marines, qualify at 500 meters, I would not know. We use the iron sights, and hitting 300 is not easy.

Some do not shot at that target, instead saving those rounds for the 250 or 200. Pop ups or paper. I am no great shot, but I qualify, and have gotten sharpshooter. I am about average amongst my peers. The 300 meter shot is by no means easy, and less than a 50/50 proposition. Some kid in BCT is not routinely making 500 meter shots. (unless you are speaking of marines, but they call it boot not bct iirc)