Cops point gun at man thinking he is sniper

[cassandrasdaddy]

"Some of you are jumping on the cops as if they had started blazing away. I don't understand why you insist on doing so."


eh tu? its always amused me

 

[joab]

eh tu? its always amused me

from what we know of each other I am always amused at the fact that we are not the two biggest cop haters here

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

funny ain't it

was just buisness not personal for me.
and i'll venture i had more interaction than most of the haters and some was not fun. its fascinating to me the reactions. my dads had one ticket in his life hes 76 and 20 years plus later hes still bad mouthing the cop. i was there he did what he was charged with and the cop was nice.coulda roadside sobriety checked him and marginal pass.
another guy i know is the kinda guy that pulls over to help strangers same guy gets pulled over thinks its cool to park so cops gotta stand in traffic

but they are not nearly as funny as a guy who buys a gun burns some powder and wants to second gues every cop based off news reports. rteminds me of nixon calling the redskins coach to tell em what plays to call. small time meglomainia. reminds me why i hated retail

 

[TCB in TN]

I hate to jump in and disturb such a fine "debate" but I must agree that leaving an "unidentified" possible shooter there for two or more minutes w/o glassing him is completely absurd. And IF they did glass him why were the officers still pointing their weapons at him? And further more if they really did think that he was pointing a weapon at them why would those officers NOT find substancially better cover than a flipping pole? And I also have an issue with any anyone pointing a gun down range w/o identifying their intended target. That would have been a poor time for an AD or ND, and we all know that the police are the only ones qualified to handle weapons...... right?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

the other thing that amuses is that being a cop is definitly blue collar work dirty work and the more white collar someones career is the more qualified they feel to supervise/comment outside their area of expertise

 

[Roccobro]

All this hoopla over a minute long video of an idiot. We weren't there so we can carry on this thread forever monday morning quarterbacking it (or until the mods lock in tomorrow).

C'mon guys. They were doing what they could with the equipment they had. Effective range, iron sighted, or whatever.. it was prolly all those two had and they took that chance.

Punching out. Have fun guys.

Justin

 

[romma]

nevermind

 

[MechAg94]

the other thing that amuses is that being a cop is definitly blue collar work dirty work and the more white collar someones career is the more qualified they feel to supervise/comment outside their area of expertise

That is sort of what I was thinking. There are very few details known about this yet everyone is filling in the missing details on their own and jumping on the cops based on their own "view" of the situation.

There are lots of articles that have been posted here in the past where officers deserved criticism, but I don't think this is really one of them. Some tactical/ROE discussion maybe.

 

[tpaw]

Two things:

1. The camera man is an idiot!

2. The police officers need better training in cover and concealment. If the idiot camera man was a sniper, at least one officer could have been shot, possibly two. A very poor tactical response to say the least if I ever saw one!

 

[joab]

The police officers need better training in cover and concealment

I think that may be the one thing we can all agree on

 

[Erik]

"...but these days in the average patrol car you have the following:
Sidearm
Back Up Gun (optional officers choice)
Shotgun
Shotgun with Less Lethals (some departments prefer having two shotguns, some don't)
Patrol Carbine"

I have enjoyed regular exposure to local, state, and federal officers in multiple states and this is not an accurate reflection of what the "average" patrol car contains.

 

[Erik]

I'd be interested in the comments of some on this board had he been a shooter who'd been dispatched with minimal shots by those cops. Cops statistically likely to have been militarily trained. Cops statistically likely, given their setting, to have received more training on top of that prior to being issued M4s.

Cop bashers'd have to find another line of attack....

(sarcasm on)
Ooh! I know! Let's attack the response of the cops who likely kicked in his door and almost certainly pointed guns at him until the situation was resolved. Resolved as in they realized he wasn't part of the active shooting crime scene they had responded to/from. And agian, didn't shoot him.
(sarcasm off)

Context, people. The cops were at an active shooter scene. They didn't fire shots. And... we have very little information besides that.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

but

he threads with lil to go on are the best unfettered by facts reallity doesn't have to rear its ugly head and spoil the dreams and fantasies

 

[Erik]

Oh, sure! NOW you tell me!

 

[PPGMD]

Cops statistically likely to have been militarily trained. Cops statistically likely, given their setting, to have received more training on top of that prior to being issued M4s.

Training is useless without upkeep. You attend a training, and over the weekend you likely lost 30% of what you learned if you don't continue to practice it and attend refresher classes on a regular basis. Police officers simply do not keep up with their skills, they don't have the time, between 40-50 hours of patrol, time in court, and other overtime most officers don't have the time to go to the range regularly.

Anyways the shot is not the biggest deal, there is a good chance they could have made, but could they have been able to tell that he was a possible shooter? That seems like a long time before getting someone to have some binos and taking a look.

Particularly if they have a carbine that that "advanced training" they should have binos if they are going to be taking 100-200 yard shots that are considered the realm of police snipers. This was two or more assets wasted because it appears that it took forever for them to glass him. Since it appears that he only knew about the hubbub from a third party, it looks like they never went to his room.

I have enjoyed regular exposure to local, state, and federal officers in multiple states and this is not an accurate reflection of what the "average" patrol car contains.

Must not be in a higher crime area, patrol carbines are the hottest rage in law enforcement. Many of the agencies in Florida are either issuing them to anyone that wants to take the one week training class, or have a process where officers can use a POW, take the class, and keep it in their car.

 

[koja48]

Lesson learned: police can commit crimes and are above the law.

I'd rephrase this to read "Idiots can precipitate tragic situations."

 

[joab]

You attend a training, and over the weekend you likely lost 30% of what you learned if you don't continue to practice it and attend refresher classes on a regular basis.

I shot twice a year, when I could not scam out of it
Always qualified comfortably as expert

have a process where officers can use a POW,

Again link please

ust not be in a higher crime area, patrol carbines are the hottest rage in law enforcement. Many of the agencies in Florida are either issuing them to anyone that wants to take the one week training class,

At least now you are admitting that it takes training and qualification
By the way, the same training that we took in BCT that enabled us to take 500 meter shots

 

[Erik]

PGMD,
My comment relative to guns in patrol cars has to do with the quantity. % guns is not the average in my experience; not fior single officers; not for double.

On high crime areas correlating to the issuance of M4s: High crime areas usually correspond to large urban areas. Large urban police agencies ususally do not issue M4s to line officers. There are some exceptions - good for them.

 

[PPGMD]

I shot twice a year, when I could not scam out of it
Always qualified comfortably as expert

That's about twice times as often as officers at some departments. Florida has a once a year qualification requirement to keep the Law Enforcement Certificate.

Army qualification is much harder then LEO qualification here is an example qualification for the handgun:
Stage 1 - Single target, 15 yard line. 6 rounds in 30 seconds.
Stage 2 - Single target, 7-yard line. Mandatory reload. 12 rounds in 45 seconds.
Stage 3 - Single target, 7 -yard line. 3 rounds in 5 seconds. Repeat for a total of 6 rounds.

Patrol Carbine Qualification course of fire:
Stage 1: Target 1 - 10 yards Target 2 - 15 yards 18 rounds
Failure Drill on each target
Stage 2: Target 2 - 15 yards Target 3 - 20 yards 22 rounds
Barricade drill 2 shots COM
Stage 3: Target 4 – 30 yards 10 rounds
CNS shots

Both COFs require a 80% passing grade, using B-21E targets. These are the minimum requirements, some departments may have higher requirements, but all in the state must meet these minimum requirements.

Again link please

There are quite a few departments that allow POW (personally owned weapon) to be used as a patrol carbine, the latest department that I know of would be the Miami Dade Police Department after the incident two months ago with the guy with the AK the left one officer dead, three wounded.

Do you want me to list every single department that allows POW patrol carbines? Heck some departments even their side arm is a POW.

At least now you are admitting that it takes training and qualification
By the way, the same training that we took in BCT that enabled us to take 500 meter shots

It requires a minimum amount of training (one week including training on cleaning, up keep, and tactics). Anyways you are getting off track yourself, what does it have to do with the ability of the officers to verify the target at 200 yards? Oh yeah that's right, you just like to argue around in circles.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

All this nonsense over a video for which nobody even knows if it is a real event or just some staged video?

Police officers simply do not keep up with their skills, they don't have the time, between 40-50 hours of patrol, time in court, and other overtime most officers don't have the time to go to the range regularly.

I don't know about overtime and such, but I do know a lot of officers have time to work second jobs to earn extra money. With that said, what should officers work on in their extra free time. Should it be shooting? Should it be driving? Should it be psychology (people/crowd interaction skills)? How about studying mug shots? Hand to hand? Maybe take a few laps on the track?

The average police officer is expected to be something of a jack of all trades and master of all trades when things go wrong. We want them to respond immediately to our needs, take care of our needs first and without question, and to do so in the shortest amount of time possible, but we aren't willing to pay a lot of extra money to hire more cops or to have cops spend say 8 hours a week working on skills maintenance. Of course, that would mean at least a 20% increase in manpower needed for patrol and additional staff to work with the officers who are doing their weekly training.

 

[joab]

There are quite a few departments that allow POW (personally owned weapon) to be used as a patrol carbine, the latest department that I know of would be the Miami Dade Police Department after the incident two months ago with the guy with the AK the left one officer dead, three wounded.

Do you want me to list every single department that allows POW patrol carbines? Heck some departments even their side arm is a POW.

No I would like you to provide a link to the claims you are making, standard forum decorum if you please

what does it have to do with the ability of the officers to verify the target at 200 yards? Oh yeah that's right, you just like to argue around in circles.

Want to show me where I have veered of my argument or changed my "facts" I can show you where you have
Such as claiming that you are speaking from personal experience after stating that the only experience you have was from listening and reading the words of those that actually have experience (post 44)

Lets review you roundy rounds here

You feel that the shot could not be taken by the accurate AR series rifel but feel certain that you could make the shot with an AK, after some minor familiarization

You say that you lose 30% of your training over the weekend, but yet I was able to maintain that training over a 6 month (longer if I could scam out of it) period on a harder course(according to you)

Now please show me where I have argued in circles
My argument is now as it has been
The shot was an easy shot and the cops had IDed their target
Maybe not to your Monday morning QBing based on what you have read , but well enough to keep their suspect covered while others entered the building
Pretty much standard pratice

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

and as to why the cops didn't take the shot they are stuck with needing to be sure and with that range and circumstance it would probably mean they get to shoot second. i'd hate having to let the other guy shoot first so i could be certain its a gun but if i was so constrained i'd be darn sure i was ready to get the second shot wouldn't wanna give the other guy 2 free ones never been that lucky to wanna try that

 

[PPGMD]

No I would like you to provide a link to the claims you are making, standard forum decorum if you please

Departments don't exactly post their policies online, particularly when it comes to firearms purchasing and qualification. But if you look you can find the MIA-Dade Police chief announcing that they are going to allow officers top purchase their own patrol carbines.

Also about every couple of months you have an officer pop in asking for suggestions about what rifle to buy for a patrol carbine at ar15.com

Also if you take a look at my posts before you jumped in with the "I made a 500meter shot in boot camp." was about the ability to identify the target at 200 yards.

Most of my posts pretty much had this point:
"It still stands were those officers able to tell if that yahoo was a sniper, or just some idiot with a camera at that range? I highly doubt it, which is why even police snipers very rarely engage targets beyond 100 yards."

 

[joab]

Departments don't exactly post their policies online,

In other words you have absolutely nothing to back your claims up
By your own admission you have only speculation and your own imagination to go on

Also if you take a look at my posts before you jumped in with the "I made a 500meter shot in boot camp." was about the ability to identify the target at 200 yards.

I'll assume that you are simply remebering incorrectly and not lying about that

The camera man stated that the officers were "like 100 yards away"
Not that far for a gun deigned to have an effective target range of 550 meters

It's at least 200 yards distance, you can see over another building when he zooms out.

The 5.56 round at 500 yards is at the extreme end of the it's effective range.

And your diversion goes on from there
Again before you try to twist it
200 yards is not a long or ineffective shot for a gun designed to have an effective target range of 550 meters

"It still stands were those officers able to tell if that yahoo was a sniper, or just some idiot with a camera at that range? I highly doubt it, which is why even police snipers very rarely engage targets beyond 100 yards."

Which would explain why the cops did not fire on the suspect but merely covered him while snipers positioned themselves on the rooftops and SWAT moved into the building, in response to someone popping in and out of the the windows with something in his hand during an active shooting scene where the wounded were still nearby on the ground
You might have seen those statements many times before

I would ask you what you would have done, but you have already shown that you are not above making facts up as you go along

Also about every couple of months you have an officer pop in asking for suggestions about what rifle to buy for a patrol carbine at ar15.com

That explains so much about your argument

 

[PPGMD]

You are making an assumption just like I am, you are assuming that they are as good as you are, while I am from the thinking that they are the lowest common police officer. For all I know these two couple be super officers, they can make 1 mile sniper shots with iron sights using a 5.56 NATO cartridge, but I doubt it.

In other words you have absolutely nothing to back your claims up
By your own admission you have only speculation and your own imagination to go on

No, don't twist my words like that, you asked for a link of departments that allow POW patrol carbines, links that show what departments allow patrol carbines and which allow POW patrol carbines don't exist because departments don't put that information on the internet. But since you are too lazy to do a google search:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/09/miami-police-ch.html

Police department policies aren't often published, but that doesn't make them less true.

Which would explain why the cops did not fire on the suspect but merely covered him while snipers positioned themselves on the rooftops and SWAT moved into the building, in response to someone popping in and out of the the windows with something in his hand during an active shooting scene where the wounded were still nearby on the ground

So they wasted man power in a possible active shooting scene when they could have easily taken a pair of $20 binos and seem that it was an idiot with video camera. Instead they took "cover" behind a light post, and pointed their carbines at the kid.

That explains so much about your argument

Actually I didn't base any of my argument on internet postings, or even information that I read on the internet, because short of one or two websites the information is useless. You get more information in 10 minutes of talking to some of your local officers then you will get with hours of search the web.

Now I will admit that my interaction with officers is often with officers that have taken their training several steps beyond that their department requires, but at the same time these guys are from a wider range of departments then my local interaction normally gave me.

I also balance it out by reading industry magazines, since they contain the type of defensive information that I want to read, that the usual gun porn magazines don't contain.

I'll assume that you are simply remebering incorrectly and not lying about that

No different then you remembering incorrectly about what I wrote.

Frankly this is getting annoying now we are back to quibbling over he said, she said stuff. We have both said our points, and all that is left is twisting each other words and arguing over internet links.