Could this become a Waco/Ruby Ridge? Happening RIGHT NOW!

[Spreadfire Arms]

Really? How long would he enjoy liberty if he stopped defending it right now?

he had (past tense) enjoyed liberty. he screwed it up for himself. he doesn't have the right to use deadly force to fend off the government because he doesn't want to accept the punishment given to him by a jury of his peers.

a man who fails to take responsibility for his own actions doesn't deserve to use deadly force to defend himself from the persons who have been given the task of taking him into custody for the offense he has been convicted of.

that logic is no different than a convicted felon using deadly force to keep himself from being taken back into custody. that is clearly wrong there, how is it not wrong in this case?

 

[Zedicus]

a man who fails to take responsibility for his own actions doesn't deserve to use deadly force to defend himself from the persons who have been given the task of taking him into custody for the offense he has been convicted of.

And the Founding Fathers diffent from Ed Brown How?


Here is an intresting article with some intresting info.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060525/REPOSITORY/605250360

Not going to quote it, click the link and read it.

 

[Zoogster]

Wow. 21 felonies involving taxes for her, and 8 for him. Even with a great expensive lawyer I can't see them pleading them all away. As self described militia they would lose the legal right to posses firearms, a big part of thier lifestyle. So basicly thier lifestyle is ruined regardless. They can either be good little criminals and maybe if they are very very compliant they can only become felons and lose everything they own, still likely having some prison time, or they can resist and die embracing thier lifestyle until the end, likely noticed by few.

It seems they got themselves in a situation.
Funny that the only person that makes money makes it from business done outside the country.

heavily armed and dangerous" and should be held without bail until the couple's trials in July...35 guns that Brown says he owns

So owning a lot of guns makes you unsuitable for bail. That is an interesting tidbit of information.

Magistrate James Muirhead disagreed and released both Browns on the condition that they relinquish all of their firearms, submit to searches of their home and refrain from entertaining guests with guns. A probation officer was sent with Dr. Brown to locate and remove the guns in the house before her husband was released.

So they report to court to stand trial for the charges and a condition of being allowed to post bail is the confiscation of all firearms.

Brown always keeps a pistol tucked in the waistband of his pants and does not fly because he is unwilling to give up his weapon.

So legaly possessing a concealed firearm and not traveling in a way that requires one to not be armed implies someone is a nut job. Interesting.

Brown has been known to boast that he would never allow his gun to be removed from his person while he was alive

"From my cold dead hands" type comments also implies your a nutjob. Hmm I hope people here are learning.

So this guy may be a little over the top for many, but his beliefs are simply a combination of many things you hear all the time here.
His life is over because he interpreted the arguments of the founding fathers and the constitution literaly. We all know they are only symbolic and that nothing they said while creating our nation actualy applies across the board anymore. He will pay for not accepting things the way they are at face value, or challenging them in a suitable way with multi million dollar lawsuits in cases taking many years to potentialy be accepted by the Supreme Court if they decide to hear them at all. Us civilized people know those are the only legal routes to voice our interpretation of the constitution. I hope they get the hundreds of years they face and multi million dollar fines! Maybe then others will see they cannot challenge the Empire of the United States of America without being squashed like a bug.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

At the end of the day, what SamTucker said is true. All we really know is that this is the government vs. some dude. I really wish there was more news here. While it sounds like this guy is a little nuts, I seriously doubt he is entirely in the wrong.

Realize what has been said before is true. Very often, the IRS can and does destroy people's lives.

I don't want to get into the politics of taxes. All I know is that if I ever sit on a jury, and have to judge income taxation matters, I will atleast hang the jury, and hopefully do a 12 angry men thing.

The problem is, either because of this guy, because of the IRS, or because of both, we'll never know. This guy will never sit before a jury of his peers, and he will be killed.

 

[WeedWhacker]

There's quite a bit more info (good and bad - watch for trolls) at an unofficial Free Stater's forum.

The gist of it seems to be that Mr. and Mrs. Brown have been asking the IRS since 1999 or prior about the specific law which compels them to pay income tax. Receiving no answer, they leaned on their own research which held them liable for no federal income taxes, and informed the IRS as much. Now the IRS chooses to answer their question via "enforcement".

During the trial, the judge essentially denied them the ability to defend themselves, refusing to allow them to present their research pertaining to the law. Apparently, this smelt of bovine excrement and the lack of due process, which prompted Mr. Brown to refuse to deal with the court anymore.

The mainstream media is laying on the vilifying buzzwords thick - Mr. Brown doesn't claim to be a current member of any militia, is a Constitutionalist (aka "anti-government"), and his "compound" is a well-constructed mansion (see pictures buried in the thread).

 

[Thin Black Line]

This wasn't once either, it was 10 years! Underestimating for 10 years?

How about the spirit of law in which the income tax was first used in this
country --that it was to be temporary? How about the percentage of
taxes taken at that time versus now? Would that be within the spirit of
the law? Who violated that spirit in the first place?

Again, if gun owners can't understand the concept of spirit of the law when
it comes to the income tax and then combine the fact that the anti-gunners
continue to ignore the letters of the Second Amendment, then no wonder
we're in this sorry state --losing the Second Amendment slowly over time.

No wonder that language has been twisted to the point where the collective
right argument has carried the lead in reshaping the second amendment
when so many gun owners acquiecse, submit, tuck tail or whatever when
it comes not only to oppressive taxation but the continued shredding of
the Bill of Rights. Call it socialism, serfdom, or assimilation by the borg, it's
all the same in practice.

You guys would have been the same ones telling my ancestor that all the
Kings acts were "lawful" as he went off to join the Virginia militia. How
dare he throw in with those ungodly rebels like Jefferson.....

I guess the modern version is "On no! If the tax laws were changed back,
we might have.....um....gee....um....CHAOS! Omigosh! That could mean....
um.....that sports bars would close! It could mean....er.....that 50" plasma
TV production would come to a screeching halt! What would we do! Oh,
the horror of it all!"

How did our country survive and prosper for so long without all the extra taxes
placed on the people within only the last few generations?

When you argue against loosening the modern tax code it is the same
mentality that argues against loosening modern restrictions on the Second
Amendment. You will reap what you sow.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Good analysis in post 175, Zoogster.

 

[deadin]

I always get a kick out of the “Taxes are illegal” crowd. My main question would be, “Where would the money for any and all public works, programs, protections, education, etc., come from without some sort of taxes”? I agree that if someone exists without ever feeding from the public trough, maybe they shouldn’t have to pay an income tax. The problem is that living without any contact with a public program of some sort would be nearly impossible. Example: Just how would one even get to work to “trade their labor for a salary” (No net gain, therefore no income. ) without using a public road? Or should all roads be toll roads? I’m sure that, if you really analyze today’s society you will find innumerable things that we take for granted, would disappear (or we would have to pay for directly out of our pocket ). Taxes are necessary, be it income, flat, consumption, etc., they’re still taxes. Each form of tax has advantages and disadvantages for everyone.
If we wern't bitching about paying taxes on our income, we would be bitching about the $11,000 national consumption tax we would have to pay for that new truck. (~20% on a $50,000 truck). Plus whatever the State Sales is. You think the Feds are going to share with the States?. If so, boost that consumption tax to around $15,000 (30%).
When I was young and first married, others with a whole lot more income than me (and probably no kids at home any longer) subsidized my kids education. Later on, when I was making much more money and my kids had left home, I helped subsidize someone else’s kids. I don’t necessarily like our current tax system (I don’t always agree with how “they” are spending my money), but realize some sort of taxation is needed and I’m just a little afraid of what “they” would do to me if we start changing things. (I'm now retired and on a fixed income. I'm sure "they" would find a way to nail me more than they already do.)

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

deadin, that's absurd! The income tax is more about socialist redistribution and central government control than it is about revenue for running the government. As I said before, you could eliminate the IRS and all income taxes tomorrow, without instituting a single new tax, and have federal revenues about equal to when George H.W. Bush was president. I think the federal government can somehow manage (That's sarcasm, in case you missed it) to function within its constitutional limits on that amount. Income taxes aren't the only way the Federal Government funds itself.

Income taxes were put in place by socialists for reasons quite distinct from raising revenues. It was a means of conditioning the American people to being controlled and micro managed by the federal government. What do you think the Founders would have said if you told them that in the 20th and 21st centuries, every American was required by law to report in detail to a Federal agency how much money they made the previous year, and by what means? Try thinking outside the box.

 

[RustyShackelford]

The REAL Dale Grebble!

This guy reminds me of a real life Dale Gribble(King of the Hill). They are both pest control experts, gun nuts and anti government wack-jobs. He even looks like Dale!

Really this entire scene is a big mess and I hope the incident came be resolved w/o any gunplay.

The FBI-HRT have learned since Ruby Ridge/Waco to deal with these types of critical incidents so I hope it can end quickly too.

Rusty S

 

[cropcirclewalker]

The republic is dead.

We are livestock.

They build us roads so that we can get to work so that we can make some cars and earn some income so that they can milk us of it.

We are like the aphids that the ants take such good care of.

Don't become an inconvienence and you might get to live out your retirement without pain or hunger.

But please to remember.....when you fail to be useful, you are overhead.

 

[deadin]

deadin, that's absurd!

Well pardon me for being uneducated and absurd. Educate me, where else does the Government get enough money to run things without instituting any new taxes if we do away with the IRS? If you're talking about letting the individual States take over the burden, then they wll have to raise more money somewhere. I don't really care who collects it or under what guise they do it, it's still taxes.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

talk is cheap

if so many support this man and his ideals why is he alone? why aren't all the heroes of the revolution joining his cause and doing as he is?if not at his side ready to gun down the evil agents of the government at least they could imitate his resistance . if enough similarly enlightened folks followed his lead the system of enforcement would collapse from the sheer weight of number. after all anyone can type revolution few can stand for the principles they CLAIM to support. it seems very few

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

if so many support this man and his ideals why is he alone? why aren't all the heroes of the revolution joining his cause and doing as he is?if not at his side ready to gun down the evil agents of the government at least they could imitate his resistance . if enough similarly enlightened folks followed his lead the system of enforcement would collapse from the sheer weight of number. after all anyone can type revolution few can stand for the principles they CLAIM to support. it seems very few.

Valid criticism. But hasn't it always been thus? For every Spartan at Thermopylae, I imagine there were thousands of supporters among the Greeks cheering them on, but from the safety of their homes. That didn't make their support any less sincere, however.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

cassandrasdaddy wrote:
if so many support this man and his ideals why is he alone? why aren't all the heroes of the revolution joining his cause and doing as he is?if not at his side ready to gun down the evil agents of the government at least they could imitate his resistance . if enough similarly enlightened folks followed his lead the system of enforcement would collapse from the sheer weight of number. after all anyone can type revolution few can stand for the principles they CLAIM to support. it seems very few

my guesses:

1. they really know he is crazy and don't want to associate themselves with such a person

2. they lack the intestinal fortitude to take up arms against something that they know is a clearly losing cause

3. they have alot to lose, like family, home, rights, even their life if they were so stupid as to point a gun at the law enforcement officers present at the scene

4. perhaps too afraid to point a gun at someone who they know is armed, perhaps more proficient (maybe), and will most likely shoot....first....

i do think it is a valid question. how many people who shake their fist at the government about paying taxes are actually doing something about it, besides sitting in their chairs in front of a computer screen and typing about it?

 

[Fosbery]

The government has no right to take this man's stuff (or his wife's) without their express consent. If a mugger, or a group of muggers try to take your stuff, even if they've all voted to do so, you have the right to defend yourself - by lying to them, telling them you've got nothing of value, or if they try to take it by force, using force back.

Didn't the American revolution start because of unfair taxes?

 

[cbsbyte]

f so many support this man and his ideals why is he alone? why aren't all the heroes of the revolution joining his cause and doing as he is?if not at his side ready to gun down the evil agents of the government at least they could imitate his resistance . if enough similarly enlightened folks followed his lead the system of enforcement would collapse from the sheer weight of number. after all anyone can type revolution few can stand for the principles they CLAIM to support. it seems very few

Because they want to post on fourms on how noble and great this man's cause against the evil corrupt government and how he is setting an example for the rest of us. In truth people like to talk a good game when they are anonymous, but when push comes to shove these arm chair patriots are no where to be seen in the fight. Oh how our country has changed, the founding fathers must be rolling over in their graves.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

The government has no right to take this man's stuff (or his wife's) without their express consent. If a mugger, or a group of muggers try to take your stuff, even if they've all voted to do so, you have the right to defend yourself - by lying to them, telling them you've got nothing of value, or if they try to take it by force, using force back.

Didn't the American revolution start because of unfair taxes?

Fosbery last I checked you Brits also pay taxes.....where are your armed and barricaded persons?

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

if so many support this man and his ideals why is he alone? why aren't all the heroes of the revolution joining his cause and doing as he is?if not at his side ready to gun down the evil agents of the government at least they could imitate his resistance . if enough similarly enlightened folks followed his lead the system of enforcement would collapse from the sheer weight of number. after all anyone can type revolution few can stand for the principles they CLAIM to support. it seems very few.

Where do you stand, my friend? Are you on the government's side? If so, why are you not shielding the IRS agents and US Marshals from Mr Brown?

You may goad all you'd like, but it will not alter anyone's opinions, nor shall it silence their voices. That is your goal, is it not? To silence our voices? When you get right down to the nitty gritty, it will be votes that replaces the tyrannical income tax with something better(or just gets rid of it once and for all!). Let the voices of dissension and those of support for those taking a stand ring loud and clear. Soon, enough voices will educate enough of the masses that a vote WILL eliminate the (explicative refrained) income tax. That would be the best approach, don't you think? Less blood spilled, better representation in Congress, more freedom to choose how you spend your money......

Of course, if you like the income tax and all its pitfalls, buy all means, carry on. But, do us all a favor and state your position. Are you for the income tax or against it?

Woody

To be liberal is to live in a cloud of delusion fraught with fantasy, and a disregard for the law and fair play. Alas; clear fact, unambiguous consensus, scrutiny, and researched reason does prevail and keeps me in touch with who is who, what is what, and explains why I am conservative. B.E.Wood

 

[oldfart]

I'm not saying this is the absolutely last word on the subject, but JPFO made a movie about income tax and a bunch of other stuff that is certainly worth watching. I know some of you hard-core apologists will watch the first ten minutes and blow off the rest as a bunch of hogwash but some of you just might start thinking instead of talking.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&q=freedom+to+fa

Try it. You might just get a couple of neurons to communicate.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

been on both sides

went 14 years without filing then i grew up and got a life. it seems some folks reverse the usual order of developing maturity

silence your voices? no one can hear em now.

as to siding with him i'd be reluctant to associate with this or any other delusional person

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Cassandra, setting you straight the way you need setting straight would get us kicked off the website, so why don't you just make your arguments on the issue, and stop with the insults? That's what adults do.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

how was i insulting?

my characterization of this man was civil. in fact most kind, i had several other words in mind to describe him.

as to the other 2 comments they also were to his actions and others feelings about them. and were far less inflamatory than the kill em all guys. my wifes ggot a liberal lady friend who characterizes anyone who disagrees with her as "attacking her" . is that how the "insulting " deal works?

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

Where do you stand, my friend? Are you on the government's side? If so, why are you not shielding the IRS agents and US Marshals from Mr Brown

somehow i think the government has bigger guns and more personnel....they really don't need some armed citizen's help in this matter. Mr. Brown on the other hand is very much so outgunned and outnumbered.

Cassandra, setting you straight the way you need setting straight would get us kicked off the website, so why don't you just make your arguments on the issue, and stop with the insults? That's what adults do.

im not seeing the insults you're referring to?

 

[Derby FALs]

Where do you stand, my friend? Are you on the government's side?

Where does he stand? Would he have a job if it weren't for goverment policies? Would he bite or lick the hand that feeds him?