Dog walker shot dead

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First of all, the dogs are unleashed and therefore out of the walker's control. He can now only react to what they do instead of preventing it entirely.

Secondly, large-breed dogs are considered a lethal threat and can warrant the presentation of a firearm. Disparity of Force comes in to play here because there are four combatants against the one.

Third, touching again on the disparity of force issue, how could you reasonably expect a 57yo man to outrun the walker or the dogs and still have wind and nerve enough to fight if that proved to soon be the only option left?

Fourth, how hard is it for the walker to change the command call from 'stop, settle, back' to 'attack'? How would the shooter know this was not going to happen at any minute? If the dogs were circling and barking, making false lunges and all that, the walker would actually be the true threat. The dog walker in this instance, is no different than the shooter in that they are both in perceived control of a deadly weapon.

I don't like to play the armchair quarterback in situations like this because I've seen similar situations myself and I know how I reacted. One thing I can say, and I'm sure you'll all agree with, is that just because he had a gun does not mean he was well-trained in combat shooting. Like a lot of us, he went through the mandatory course, however many years ago that might have been. But unlike a lot of us, he isn't an afficianado of weaponry and tactics and hasn't read up on the subject or attended classes at Gunsite, ThunderRanch, LFI, etc.

It was his lack of training and the resultant inability to determine the best course of action that really escalated the situation.

Were I in his shoes at that point in time, I would like to think I could have dropped all three dogs before they got close to me. But, then again.....
 
actually most dogs will not attack a stranger if you dont act in a threatening manner, by just remaining calm and standing still, most dogs will leave you alone, especially if your not in their "territory" like in front of the house or in the yard, etc.

I noticed most dogs will back off if you just hold a stick over your head, they have common sense not to get any closer when they see you have a
weapon.

even though it sounds like it was a justifiable shooting, I really think somebody over-reacted and it could have been avoided.

the problem was more with the dog owner, not the dogs themselves.
 
Now the community wants to string him up...

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0526shootingfolo26.html

Petition drive asks charges in trail death


A justified shooting?


Special to The Republic




Peter Corbett
The Arizona Republic
May. 26, 2004 12:00 AM


Friends of a Payson man gunned down in the woods are circulating a petition that claims that the shooting was unjustified and that urges authorities to prosecute the shooter.

The petition drive began Tuesday on behalf of Grant Kuenzli, 43, who was shot to death May 11 near a trail 25 miles north of Payson.

Retired Tolleson High School teacher Harold "Hal" Fish, 57, said that Kuenzli's three dogs attacked him and that he feared for his life when Kuenzli came at him.

The Coconino County Sheriff's Office is investigating the case, and a detective says the shooting was justified.

John McCauley, 73, of Payson disputes that assertion and plans to submit the petition to Coconino County officials in the hopes Fish will be punished.

The petition, in part, reads:

"We knew Grant as a clean, intelligent, well-mannered individual. . . . He never showed any sign of temper or meanness. . . . Mr. Fish probably never intended to kill Mr. Kuenzli, however, it is our belief that he completely overreacted and that his ultimate act was not justifiable."

McCauley said he posted the petition Tuesday afternoon at the dog park where he met Kuenzli last fall and had not seen how many people had signed it.

Coconino County Attorney Terry Hance will review the case to determine if charges will be filed.

Many Arizonans have reacted with disbelief that Detective Scott Feagan is calling the shooting self-defense.

Kuenzli moved to Arizona from Illinois about 15 years ago and worked at the Grand Canyon as a tour guide and firefighter. He later lived in Mesa and worked about nine months as a fire inspector for the Gilbert Fire Department.

He volunteered at the Payson Humane Society and was a pet photographer.

McCauley said Kuenzli was cremated and that no services are planned by his family in Illinois.

=====================================================


:rolleyes:
 
Well, after reading the initial article and thinking on it, despite people frothing at the mouth on both sides of the argument, It's a close call and you can have it go either way.

I can think of several "hills" I've encountered in my hiking where if someone is charging screaming down it, they aren't that far away and are moving pretty fast. Quite easily it could be the outdoor equivalent of being in a medium sized room with your gun out, getting charged by someone mad and stupid enough to do so.


I could also think of many hills I've encountered where the situation as described in the articles is just shotting a guy 20 yards away for no real reason.


I think the only thing we can definitively say we know in this thread is that the folks who "never have and never will" leash their dogs better not have much of a temper on them when something bad happens to their critter. You expose them, and unfortunately the people around them, to a lot of chance and happenstance. You better take what happens with a lot of grace.
 
Vaughn, I have to disagree with you as far as the shooter in the story probably not being a gun afficionado. I go on two pieces of evidence here:

1) He had a 10mm. These are rare to begin with outside of dedicated handgun shooter circles, and they are expensive to feed compared to more common calibers (9mm, .40, .45, .38...), unless one reloads.

2) He put three shots from that heavy recoiling pistol into COM on a moving attacker in a real life scenario, and likely did so VERY quickly. This suggests a large investment in range time and a very large ammo budget (we're talking 10 milli here after all).

But thats just my opinion
 
quote:
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What was the shooter’s greatest risk, here - That he might get pushed, shoved, or, maybe, punched in the eye?
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Not touching on the issue here, but just a clarification. Anybody with a fighting background knows how fast somebody can get hurt seriously in a hand to hand confrontation. Anything that hits you in the head hard enough to make you lose consciousness is also hard enough to kill you. Never think that a violent confrontation with an unarmed man is at worst going to result in some minor scrapes, realistically you could get killed.
 
A quote:
"actually most dogs will not attack a stranger if you dont act in a threatening manner, by just remaining calm and standing still, most dogs will leave you alone, especially if your not in their "territory" like in front of the house or in the yard, etc... I noticed most dogs will back off if you just hold a stick over your head, they have common sense not to get any closer when they see you have a weapon."

I find myself getting more and more irked as each "doggie apologist" post appears in this thread. The term 'most dogs' doesn't cut it here, especially when there are three large dogs moving forward in what was perceived to be a threatening manner. I tried the 'remain calm and stand still' method once myself, only to discover that the particular 'most dog' that I faced had a particular affinity for An*s Americanus. If I had a gun at the time, I'd still be reloading and shooting that (literal) son of a b*tch.

Another quote:
"even though it sounds like it was a justifiable shooting, I really think somebody over-reacted and it could have been avoided. the problem was more with the dog owner, not the dogs themselves."

Let's remember that in this case, the guy who was supposedly 'controlling' these dogs at the time of the incident had borrowed them from the animal shelter, and did not have them on a leash. He had no prayer of controlling them with voice commands, and yet chose to ignore the one safety measure he could have responsibly taken to control and protect them from situations like the one that eventually came to pass. That was his first mistake. His second mistake, the one that cost him his life, was to do whatever it was that he did that made Mr. Fish perceive him as a threat, and continue that behavior until Mr. Fish changed his demeanor for him, permanently.

People, we have to remember that animals are what they are. They're going to do what they instinctually know to do. That's why you don't run from predator animals -- their instinct is that anything running is probably food. That doesn't make them bad, and it doesn't make them good -- it is what it is, no more, no less. Bears are dangerous. Big dogs are dangerous. Mountain lions are dangerous. Is it because of intent? No, it's because they possess the tools to do us harm, and we don't have the understanding of them (and vice versa) to allow any negotiation of aggression into a mutual understanding. A good example: in the last year or so, a self-proclaimed 'bear expert' with many years' experience in living around and with bears was eaten, along with his girlfriend, by the very brown bears he was studying and attempting to 'befriend'. His intentions were pure, and his actions were non-threatening, but at some point, the bears decided the two were food, and that decision quickly became the game. The girlfriend was thoughtful enough to videotape the initial encounter, and after it became clear that the bear was attacking, the man can be heard attempting to reason with the bear in between screams. He had no 'Plan B', and it cost him, and his girlfriend, their lives.

So what, you don't consider big dogs to be in the same class with bears and mountain lions? Well, let's consider: all have the same tools, their teeth and claws and muscular strength. All are predators (eyes on fronts of their heads, carnivores, same instinctive tendencies). All have a history of attacks. Does this make them bad? No -- they're part of the world we live in, the same food chain and cycle of life that we keep trying to domesticate and control. People that enter their domain but don't respect them for what they can do are doomed to quite possibly end up on the wrong side of the equation. People that have that respect for them get more chances to live another day. It's that simple.

Thoughts?
 
Yup. Folks who think dogs aren't dangerous don' t know much about dogs.

Same for folks who think a fist fight can only result in a black eye.



I hope we get a follow up and find out what the Grand Jury decides.





McCauley said Kuenzli was cremated and that no services are planned by his family in Illinois.


Must have been a great guy - they really loved him. :rolleyes:



No, that doesn't mean it was okay to shoot him. It MIGHT mean he was unbalanced enough to do something that made it reasonable to shoot him.

It might not.
 
hmmm

I feel very sorry for the shooter and the deceased. This was a no win situation for everyone involved.

Wasn't the deceased a bit of a loner type, living in the woods in the area? Maybe a little off from normal social behaviors, but not too much off.

I need to venture into this fray a little. As a dog owner I will say this ... it is 100% my responsibility as a dog owner to keep my dogs leashed or controlled, no exceptions.

That does not mean my dogs are never off leash, they are controlled when off leash with voice commands and training. My dogs are bird hunters and are off leash in dnr and FS lands all fall and winter. We run into numerous people and horses a day. It is my duty to keep them under control or have them on a leash. And no, I am not a rich guy that can stay at home and spend all day training my dogs. They go to basic and advanced obedience classes ($100 each class) before they get trained for the field. It makes bird training easier also, the dog is under control in the field. And if you can even believe this, some people perceive English Setters as dangerous.

I feel dog ownership is a privilege, not a right and needs to worked on like driving or shooting skills.

There is nothing more reprehensible then an under controlled, large, "Guard Dog" animal with a lagging behind owner.

Still, I wish the shooter had shot the lead dog. That will usually solve the problem. It works on wild or stray dog packs in areas with this problem.

If the deceased had continued to attack, then ... it would be a shame and I mean that. A god awful, shameful tragedy.
 
Friends of a Payson man gunned down in the woods are circulating a petition that claims that the shooting was unjustified and that urges authorities to prosecute the shooter.

Now that's a modern day version of a lynch mob. I hope the prosecutor ignores that or something bad is going to grow.

BTW, I'm an Infantry Officer, but I'm afraid of big large snarling dogs.

Fear is something you learn to control..and act on, that's why you have fear. Panic is a whole different thing.

I bet the shooter eally didn't have much time to ponder his situation during which his fear was probably spiked by the three dogs. My CCW instructor said it best: "The result of a shoot is that lawyers, policemen, judges, newspeople and everyone else will spend a consideralbe amount of time going over a decision you only had fractions of a second to make."

I judge nobody in this case.
 
I'd like to make a to-the-point observation. In all the words written in this thread, no words have had to be written about why that 57-yr-old man was mauled and ripped to pieces by a pack of wild dogs, with the now-deceased younger man babbling about how he "just didn't understand those beautiful animals behaving that way." (And all his buddies at the Humane Society lamenting over what a trying incident it must have been for the poor, "gentle" guy to have witnessed the mauling of another human being)

Of the two humans involved in the incident, let's decide who was probably smarter.......kind of makes you want to go "hmmmmmmmmmmmm".

I'm of the opinion that fights aren't supposed to be fair. I'll use whatever advantage I can muster, if I'm attacked.
 
I would not want to have to explain to a jury(criminal or civil) why I could carry a firearm,extra mag, knife,cell phone and not carry pepper spray.
I'd just say that I left my Batman utility Beltâ„¢ at home. :rolleyes:

For most people it's all they can do to conceal a weapon and a reload.
Carrying a firearm, extra mags, knife, pepper spray, etc. etc. could be construed by a jury of Blissninnies as "looking for trouble".


If I am charged by one dog I might consider pepper spray.
If I am charged by three large dogs seasoning is not an option. There just isn't enough time.
If I am charged by three large dogs and a screaming man with clenched fists there's gonna be some rounds fired.

Call me kooky but I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
When someone tells you "my kid would never" or "my dog would never" it's a glaring neon sign that says: "I am clueless and I like it that way."

I've been around more different kinds of animals and people than most. If there is ONE thing that is always true of animals and people, it is that their complexity makes them unpredictable. Staking your life savings on the outcome of a specific situation based on what "most people" or "most dogs" or "most (fill in the blank)" would do is a good way to end up broke.
 
What was the shooter’s greatest risk, here - That he might get pushed, shoved, or, maybe, punched in the eye?

So exactly how badly would one have to beat you before the idea of self defense would occur to you, just wondering?:confused:
 
The problem is people's inability to separate reality from what happens in the movies.

In the movies a guy can get beaten to the ground with a 2x4 in one scene and be recovered enough 10 seconds later to take away the 2x4, beat up the guy who was whacking him with it a couple of seconds ago, and still have enough steam to put down two or three more bad guys twice as big as he is.

In real life, a single solid punch can blind, deafen, maim or even kill. Anybody remember how Houdini died?

The TX CHL shooter I mentioned earlier was permanently injured before he was able to kill his attacker and stop the attack. Go tell him that all he had to worry about was getting punched in the eye.
 
:rolleyes: First, HiWayMan, You are to be complimented on your good manners. Of course I accept the apology. Perhaps I was a little too acerbic in my initial reply. By way of explanation, let me offer this: I am unable to see any clear evidence, here, that the victim was about to launch a deadly attack; there is, also, no stated evidence that the shooter suffers from any ailment so severe that he could not withstand being pushed or, for that matter, being shouted at face-to-face. (Which might have been the victim’s sole intention? The fact is that we’re never going to know the true answers about what actually happened that day because three quick shots rang out before events had fully unfolded. So far the ONLY mitigating circumstance I see is that the shooter promptly reported the shooting to authorities.)

There is, however, clear evidence that the shooter could repeatedly fire a large caliber pistol accurately and, thereafter, walk some distance away from the scene. Neither have I read anything about the shooter requiring hospitalization, afterwards, for any reason; nor do I accept 57 years of age as being, ‘old’ or infirm. (I feel, ‘safe’ in this assumption because, as of last Monday, I’m 61 years old myself.) As I mentioned I’ve been a dog breeder most of my adult life; and pride myself on understanding the canine mentality and being something of a better than average dog trainer.

I hate to see any gun owner play straight into the hands of the likes of: Dianne Feinstein, Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy. Granted we, all, make mistakes; but, when that mistake involves killing an unarmed man with a handgun, under overtly ambiguous circumstances, then, all of us who carry pistols everyday are SURE to feel the heat. This is exactly that sort of terrible event that the anti-2nd amendment crowd waits for!

In the years that I, myself, have been carrying, I’ve had an angry tractor-trailer driver actually push my vehicle off the road because I wasn’t going fast enough and he wanted to get by. As I headed for the ditch I could have put my S & W, Model 686 out the window and, ‘taken him out’. The split-second decision I had to make that day was that my life wasn’t (really) in danger – only my vehicle; and I was keenly aware of how this event would have to, ‘play’ in the news. I let myself be run off the road; and, afterward, I called the state police to report the incident. No matter how, ‘justified’ I may have felt (or actually been) at that moment, ‘What’ I did NOT want to become was, ‘the talk of my local gun club.’

Very recently, I pulled into a parking space that someone else had his eye on. He, ‘charged’ up to my face while yelling every insult that he could think of! Know what? I wasn’t going to let this guy, ‘get the better’ of me. I, simply, tucked my right arm into my side to prevent the wind from revealing the Glock Model G-21 hidden underneath. Even when he was less than a foot from my face, the thought of, ‘throwing down’ on this guy never occurred to me. (Taking him out with an upsweep to the point of his chin or, ‘thumbing’ his eye, maybe; but I certainly wasn’t going to use a weapon on this idiot.) It got worse, too: When I came out of the store he was waiting for me and began to follow me in his vehicle. Is this rational behavior? I think not! I noted his license plate and, then, drove straight to the police station. (He must have been a, ‘local’, too, because a block from the station he, suddenly, veered off and disappeared.)

In today’s America it isn’t enough to, ‘go armed’ and be competent with firearms; American gun owners need to be MUCH MORE than well-armed and good shots: We, also, need to have greater self-discipline, and to actually be, ‘smarter’ than the next guy. Call me an elitist, if you like; but, I believe that the state has given me my CCW permit primarily because my life record reflects the facts that I am honest, trustworthy, and responsible BEYOND conventional societal norms! It should be obvious that I do not take this civil trust and the concomitant social responsibility lightly – quite the opposite, I assure you.

Anyone whom I may have to face in ANY social confrontation, really, doesn’t have to be as highly self-disciplined as I pride myself on being. It is MY RESPONSIBILITY as a Life Member of the NRA, as well as a supporter of, both, ‘Gun Owners of America’, and, ‘Jews For The Preservation Of Firearms Ownership’ to be SMARTER (By, ‘smarter’ I mean: mentally tougher, more self-disciplined, and more calculating.) than most of the other unarmed (or, even, unworthy) people with whom I come into daily contact.

I am keenly aware that one of the ways for the anti 2nd amendment crowd to persuade the American public that guns are a real threat to society is to insidiously allow (If you’ll permit me to use the phrase, again.) as many, ‘dumb-ass civilians’ as possible to carry guns in daily public life. Given the power of the national news media, it shouldn’t be too difficult to imagine some conniving politician sitting in his office, smiling to himself while thinking; ‘Go ahead let ‘um carry all they want.’ ‘It’s only a matter of time before these gun-totters’ mistakes begin to pile up; and, then, we’ll be able to finally disarm them, all!’ All gun owners and users need to understand that every, ‘jerk with a gun’ is a threat to everyone else’s own precious civil liberties! All gun owners, everywhere, need to understand that if I, here in Pennsylvania, make a serious mistake with a firearm, then, this mistake IS going to have a negative impact on everyone’s right-to-carry no matter which particular state is involved!

I am positive that I don’t want to be remembered as someone who gave American gun owners a, ‘bad name’. Sure I’ll use my guns IF I really have too; but I’m going to require significant provocation before I level that front sight and begin, ‘double or triple tapping’ another human being. I’m sorry; I truly am; but I, just, don’t see this level of provocation in the subject incident.

Remember, ‘What’ I said about being, ‘smarter’, ‘tougher’, ‘more self-disciplined’, and ‘more calculating’ than the other guy: Before I’m willing to give benefit of doubt to the shooter, here, I would need to see: one or more dead dogs, as well as some evidence of injury to the shooter. A wiser man than I, once, wrote; ‘No man is an island unto himself!’ In my considered opinion this degree and quality of evidence is owed to all the rest of us who carry guns on our bodies – everyday. Without it I must conclude that a serious mistake has been made by someone who, clearly, never should have been carrying a deadly weapon in the first place.

I’m a great believer in considering everything IN CONTEXT. If this were a different sort of incident, perhaps, inside a camping tent at around midnight, then, I might have an entirely different slant on events; but, I don’t see any such mitigating circumstances, here; and there’s, still, that troubling problem with no wounds on the shooter and no dead attack animals. (Only two of which might have been considered threatening.) As hard as I try to rationalize this event, I can’t get around this. It, just, doesn’t add up to three E.C.Q.B. killing shots on an unarmed man.

Neither do I buy the argument about an unarmed, somewhat, younger man being a deadly threat. That’s, exactly, indicative of the, ‘hair-trigger’ mentality I’ve already criticized! Go ahead! Kill a dog, or two, if you have to; but, even at my age, I know that the first opening moves another man would make against me are, probably, going to miss. If someone is THAT frail, what is he doing far out in the woods, carrying a big powerful 10mm handgun, in the first place? Again, as much as I might wish otherwise, the facts behind this shooting continue to be unjustifiable; and I strongly suspect that some district attorney is going to see things the same way!

A GUN IS A GUN, PEOPLE; IT’S USE IN COMBAT ENDS LIFE! If you are carrying a handgun and, also, don’t know the first thing about clearing an unarmed attacker off your vertical body centerline, then, I must conclude that there’s a, ‘big hole’ in your training. E.C.Q.B. and ‘retention firing’ skills go (If you’ll excuse the pun.) hand-in-hand. If the rest of us aren’t less, ‘hair-triggered’ and more careful than this, then, these, ‘jerks with guns’ are, at the very least, going to ruin CCW for all of us - everywhere. Enough said! ;)
 
If someone is THAT frail, what is he doing far out in the woods, carrying a big powerful 10mm handgun
It almost sounds like you would be happier if the guy had used a .25ACP. Maybe his kid read about it in a gun mag and bought it for him. Are you really saying that the kind of gun he carries calls his right to protect himself into question?
There is, however, clear evidence that the shooter could repeatedly fire a large caliber pistol accurately and, thereafter, walk some distance away from the scene.
If this is evidence of wrongdoing then all of us better switch to small caliber pistols and make sure we wait to be seriously injured before defending ourselves.

Having someone shout at you in a parking lot is a bit different than having a person charge you in a remote location after they realize that you have a working firearm pointed at them.

If you get jumped in a parking lot in front of a store there's a remote chance someone might help, or at least call the cops. Even if that doesn't happen, at some point, the attacker might realize that killing someone in front of a bunch of witnesses isn't such a good idea.

When you're in the middle of nowhere, you can't afford to get into a scuffling match with someone. Nobody's going to help, call for help, or even be a witness at your murder trial.

I'm glad you feel confident about your hand-to-hand skills. But, the fact that you are good at hand-to-hand doesn't mean everyone else is, or even CAN be.

If you can find a clause in the law that says a person must be severely injured before they can apply deadly force, post it here. All the laws I've seen say that if you believe there is no other reasonable way to prevent an attack, you may use deadly force.

Given that the man had already fired a shot and that didn't dissuade the attacker, what would you recommend he do?
Send him a certified letter?
Whip out a cell phone and threaten to dial 911?
Beg?
Just hope for the best?

Seriously, do you make no distinction between a person shouting at someone they believe to be unarmed (as in your case) and a person rushing at a person who has already presented a firearm and fired a shot?
 
By way of explanation, let me offer this: I am unable to see any clear evidence, here, that the victim was about to launch a deadly attack; there is, also, no stated evidence that the shooter suffers from any ailment so severe that he could not withstand being pushed or, for that matter, being shouted at face-to-face... I’ve had an angry tractor-trailer driver actually push my vehicle off the road because I wasn’t going fast enough and he wanted to get by...
So what does it take to move you to action, a nuclear first strike?

By Arizona law, being pushed, or being shouted at if the words are a threat, by an unarmed man can be considered to justify the use of deadly force if a reasonable person could conclude it to be a bona fide threat. Clearly the Arizona legislature did not have a collective opinion similar to yours in mind when they codified this law.
Call me an elitist, if you like; but, I believe that the state has given me my CCW permit primarily because my life record reflects the facts that I am honest, trustworthy, and responsible BEYOND conventional societal norms! It should be obvious that I do not take this civil trust and the concomitant social responsibility lightly – quite the opposite, I assure you.
Okay, but only because I believe it and you've allowed it: You're an elitist. And quite lucky to date, too.

You may like to believe that you're somehow all of those qualities beyond the conventional societal norms, but try this for a concept: every human being on the planet has, first and foremost, an unalienable right to defend themselves by any means at their disposal. With respect to this right and personally owned and carried firearms, we as a society have chosen to take this right from all those who prove, through criminal or other unacceptable conduct or circumstance, to be unable or unwilling to exercise this right judiciously. For everybody else, it's a level playing field. So if you're "better" than everybody else, good for you -- you should be proud. Only it doesn't make your score on the CCW permit scale any higher than anybody else who has one.
I am keenly aware that one of the ways for the anti 2nd amendment crowd to persuade the American public that guns are a real threat to society is to insidiously allow... as many, ‘dumb-ass civilians’ as possible to carry guns in daily public life... it shouldn’t be too difficult to imagine some conniving politician sitting in his office, smiling to himself while thinking; ‘Go ahead let ‘um carry all they want.’ ‘It’s only a matter of time before these gun-totters’ mistakes begin to pile up; and, then, we’ll be able to finally disarm them, all!’ All gun owners and users need to understand that every, ‘jerk with a gun’ is a threat to everyone else’s own precious civil liberties! All gun owners, everywhere, need to understand that if I, here in Pennsylvania, make a serious mistake with a firearm, then, this mistake IS going to have a negative impact on everyone’s right-to-carry no matter which particular state is involved!
If you're saying in the first part of this passage that the anti's are secretly hoping to spread concealed carry around in order to watch permit holders as a group fall on our faces, then you clearly haven't been to Illinois or Wisconsin, among other places, lately. Folks up here like their cops heavily armed, their children scared sh*tless, and their criminals spread-eagled. If this "vast chicken-wing conspiracy" of anti's is going to lead to mass permit grants, then sign my mama's baby boy UP! I can tell you right here and now, the anti's in and around here haven't caught on to this "insidious tactic". I wish they'd hurry up and smell the coffee. :D

As for the last part, of course we all have to act responsibly -- that goes without saying. And as a contrasting opinion, I believe (as does the LEO's that exhaustively investigated the event in question) Mr. Fish acted responsibly and within the laws of his state in taking the action he did. My opinion doesn't really matter -- but I'll bet the LEO's does when it goes to the Grand Jury.
 
I still maintain the opinion that we need more information, BUT, the fact that the man's own family doesn't care enough to have a service for him certainly doesn't hurt the shooter's case in my eyes. The mentally ill are usually quite adept at maintaining "decent" relationships with casual acquaintances. They are not so good at maintaining their familial relationships, often to the point of the family not being able to deal at all with the mentally ill family member. If the deceased was truely clinically mentally ill, there is a good chance that he responded quite violently and irrationally to someone shooting at his poor wittle doggies. While mental illness is an unfortunate and sad occurance, it does not ever excuse violent behavior towards others.

Arc, one last thing. You mention the shooting of an unarmed man. You must be referring to a different shooting, because legally, the dead guy was armed with 3 unleashed weapons. Weapons that no one can even argue he possibly could have controlled very well, as they were borrowed from a shelter. Heck, according to the police, one of the weapons had a violent history. And the deceased refused to exercise the one control over those weapons that was at his disposal, keeping them on a leash.

Sympathy meter is going down. Way down.
 
Hand to hand has been fatal since forever. Dog bites have been fatal since forever -- best to avoid both.

A word to those who own potentially dangerous dogs and keep them unrestrained: don't be surprised if your baby is killed by a rational person; and I suggest that you act rational as well, otherwise you may be hugging in hell (insert of theistic bad place here) with your baby.

Emotional stupid is the most irritating kind.
 
No -- they're part of the world we live in, the same food chain and cycle of life that we keep trying to domesticate and control.

And Blackcloud6 intends to stay at the top of the food chain.

Arc Angel everything you say about the responsibility of carry a firearm for protection is true and we all should read it and internalize it.

You say you don't see enough evidence in the story to agree that Mr. Fish needed to defend himself in the way that he did. I think this is because you have not seen, nor have access to all the evidence. The police, who do have such access, have stated that they feel the shooting was justifiable. Therefore, to me anyways, there is more to it than what the papers say.

One part of my CCW class and personal defense class that stuck with me was when the instructor used me as a training dummy. He told me to stand at the back of the room and proceeded with class. The he suddenly charge me and at the last moment produced a rubber knife (that I did not see until too late) and stuck it to my throat. I was surprised how fast he was on me and that the knife came out of nowhere.

What he drove home to me, and to the class was not only how fast someone can be upon you, but how little time you have to make the decision, if you even begin to make the decision at all. This plays in my mind over and over. He could have stopped right in front of me and said "hey Blacklcoud, old buddy, how have you been" and just shook my hand. Makes you stop and ponder the critical shoot-no shoot situation, eh?

So, apparently Mr. Fish's fear continued to rise rapidly to the point he felt the need to shoot. He may not have even really pondered it. The key here is that he was already in threatened situation from the dogs and then a person was coming at him too. Gadz! Not a situation I would want to be in.

Oh, and shooting someone at arms length and getting three very good hits should be easy, don't you think?
 
The Arizona Republic has written another article about the shooting. A lot of it is drivel, but it does give the shot distances:

"Kuenzli was 8 feet away when Fish fired his first shot, and 6 inches away when he fired his third."

So, he was only eight feet away from him and was still charging at a good pace. Also, the fact that the shots were COM is simply a matter of the distance being so short.
 
Kinda sounds like a bad shoot to me - if my dogs got loose and charged someone and got shot, that's the price they pay for being agressive - BUT:

In this case the dogs were apparently scared off by the first shot, so it's not really an issue of self-defense against dogs:

the question is whether the MAN's actions justified lethal force.

Shouting and running toward someone seems a little thin to me - did he keep running after the first shot?

WHAT was he shouting: "No, don't!" or "I'll kill you?" If my dogs were charging someone I'd be shouting "No!" and "Come!" as loud as I could.

Being justifiably angry, and justifiably having a gun in your hand, and justifiably shooting some targets, doesn't mean that you're justified in shooting everyone involved. It's understandable human behavior, but that doesn't make it right.

All this changes if there were powder burns on the dead man's shirt - but if not I would want to hear a better case of self-defense. Good thing I'm not the prosecutor there, eh?
 
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