CannibalCrowley
Member
alduro
Where does it say that the dog got within 6 feet?
Dog walker shot dead
- Thread starter cerberus
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orangeninja
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Cannibal....
"Kuenzli's barking dogs charged at Fish, who yelled at Kuenzli to call them off. Fish fired a warning shot when the lead dog, the chow, was within 6 feet of him."
in the article.
Don't worry, the devil in the details snags me at times too.
I have to say, If I were attacked by an unarmed man that was my approximate size and weight or smaller, even while I was in uniform, I would not be able to use deadly force with any justification unless he actually began to fight me for my own weapon.
Secondly, I cannot give "warning" shots, so I would have to say shoot the dog.
Third.....in this case the man was indeed a threat, however the dogs were what presented "imminent" danger.
For me to sit here and try to say with difinitive conviction what I believe about an even that I obviously don't know everything about is kind of a waste of time anyway.....but if the story told all there was....the shooter is a criminal.
"Kuenzli's barking dogs charged at Fish, who yelled at Kuenzli to call them off. Fish fired a warning shot when the lead dog, the chow, was within 6 feet of him."
in the article.
Don't worry, the devil in the details snags me at times too.
I have to say, If I were attacked by an unarmed man that was my approximate size and weight or smaller, even while I was in uniform, I would not be able to use deadly force with any justification unless he actually began to fight me for my own weapon.
Secondly, I cannot give "warning" shots, so I would have to say shoot the dog.
Third.....in this case the man was indeed a threat, however the dogs were what presented "imminent" danger.
For me to sit here and try to say with difinitive conviction what I believe about an even that I obviously don't know everything about is kind of a waste of time anyway.....but if the story told all there was....the shooter is a criminal.
goalie
Member
Gee, I love how someone can project their knowledge of Chows onto someone else. I, for one, am perfectly ignorant about the subtle nuances of chows, their behavior, and just about anything else about them. My ignorance of your hobby does not excuse your hobby not being on a freaking leash. The more I read this, the more I feel that it may be good for the universe that the guy is no longer swimming in the gene pool, regardless of the actual happenings.
Dog owners need to either act responsibly or have a thicker skin. Maybe they should treat it like carrying a gun. When I am packing, I always live by the rule that you can afford to have a temper OR a gun, but never both. I am starting to think the exact same applies to idiots that don't have dangerous dogs on a leash.
Dog owners need to either act responsibly or have a thicker skin. Maybe they should treat it like carrying a gun. When I am packing, I always live by the rule that you can afford to have a temper OR a gun, but never both. I am starting to think the exact same applies to idiots that don't have dangerous dogs on a leash.
d-mac
Member
Are any of you dog owners?
Sometimes my 60lb german sheppard gets a run in her to go greet someone to lick them like mad.
I call the dog and if she keeps it up I yell that she is friendly and will lick you.
It happens, no matter what you say, it happens. She looks scary but is friendly and that is the first thing I say.
If any one of those times a person pulls a gun, I would as well and say you shoot you die.
If the dog was chasing them and barking like mad then that's another story. But to say any dog running up to you intends to kill you is a mistakle and poor judgement. Maybe you should get used to dogs since it sounds like you are scared of Dogs like Anti's are scared of guns?????
You want to educate antis so check out what dogs are like when attacking and when wanting to greet you and lick you. This way you won't kill a dog and face an angry owner since you were uneducated in dog manorisms.
Argue that
Sometimes my 60lb german sheppard gets a run in her to go greet someone to lick them like mad.
I call the dog and if she keeps it up I yell that she is friendly and will lick you.
It happens, no matter what you say, it happens. She looks scary but is friendly and that is the first thing I say.
If any one of those times a person pulls a gun, I would as well and say you shoot you die.
If the dog was chasing them and barking like mad then that's another story. But to say any dog running up to you intends to kill you is a mistakle and poor judgement. Maybe you should get used to dogs since it sounds like you are scared of Dogs like Anti's are scared of guns?????
You want to educate antis so check out what dogs are like when attacking and when wanting to greet you and lick you. This way you won't kill a dog and face an angry owner since you were uneducated in dog manorisms.
Argue that
d-mac,
You know your dog and you trust her.
The person she's rushing at doesn't know her or trust her--they don't know you or trust you either.
So, EVEN IF they hear you shouting that she's harmless--why they should trust their future well-being and possibly even their life to a stranger who doesn't even care enough about his dog to put her on a leash in public?
If you care about your dog, you will control her.
If you kill someone because your dog rushes them and they pull a gun on her, you'll get to think about your decision for a very long time--in jail. Since you're already breaking the leash law by letting your dog rush at strangers, there will be absolutely no question about who's in the wrong.
Even if there's no leash law it's not hard to figure out how things are going to turn out...
Ok, let's stop talking about killing people over dogs for a moment and get back to the real world. Forget about the fact that leash laws reduce your pet's chance of being hit by a car. Leash laws are all about courtesy. Even if your dog doesn't attack me, why would you think I want to be rushed and then licked by a big dog? I might be allergic to dogs. I might have a severe phobia of dogs. I might be on the way to a date and don't want dog hair and saliva on my clothes and me.
For the love of pete, folks, don't let your big dog go charging up to strangers--even if it's not going to attack them, it could still scare the liver out of them, and even if they're not scared, there's a good chance they don't want to be slobbered on.
You know your dog and you trust her.
The person she's rushing at doesn't know her or trust her--they don't know you or trust you either.
So, EVEN IF they hear you shouting that she's harmless--why they should trust their future well-being and possibly even their life to a stranger who doesn't even care enough about his dog to put her on a leash in public?
If you care about your dog, you will control her.
If you kill someone because your dog rushes them and they pull a gun on her, you'll get to think about your decision for a very long time--in jail. Since you're already breaking the leash law by letting your dog rush at strangers, there will be absolutely no question about who's in the wrong.
Even if there's no leash law it's not hard to figure out how things are going to turn out...
Ok, let's stop talking about killing people over dogs for a moment and get back to the real world. Forget about the fact that leash laws reduce your pet's chance of being hit by a car. Leash laws are all about courtesy. Even if your dog doesn't attack me, why would you think I want to be rushed and then licked by a big dog? I might be allergic to dogs. I might have a severe phobia of dogs. I might be on the way to a date and don't want dog hair and saliva on my clothes and me.
For the love of pete, folks, don't let your big dog go charging up to strangers--even if it's not going to attack them, it could still scare the liver out of them, and even if they're not scared, there's a good chance they don't want to be slobbered on.
goalie
Member
You are betting an awful lot that you are going to win that gunfight.
Your dog has no right to run up to me at all. Ever. Now, that said, I won't shoot it, I'll just knee the hell out of it and teach it a lesson, but, seeing as all I want is to be left alone, why don't you take measures to ensure your dog does so. If that means a leash, so be it, if you can control her without one, that's good too. Just don't put yourself and your dog in a situation where you are threatening other people and you won't have issues with me, ever.
Browns Fan
Member
Quote:
"Reading is fundamental, I've heard."
Yeah, but, comprehension is optional!
"Reading is fundamental, I've heard."
Yeah, but, comprehension is optional!
The other thing to keep in mind when you're talking about shooting a dog in public really is the owner. Forget the emotional "you shoot my dog I'll shoot you" side of things.
My dogs are never off leash, but if one somehow got off and ran up to someone I would be running after it and yelling for it too. If that person suddenly draws a handgun, I can guarantee they'll be looking down the barrel of my .45. I have no idea if they're going to shoot at my dog or me, or both. Now we have two strangers who have drawn loaded firearms in a very tense and fast moving situation. The other guy drew first, and if he swings that muzzle anywhere near me there's gonna be a gunfight. Regardless of who wins (since most people on this board somehow assume they'll emerge the victor in any gunbattle) which one of us is in the wrong? He was scared of the dog. I was scared of him. That decision, like the one in this article, will ultimately be up to a grand jury.
My bet is that the grand jury will indict him. The fact that someone runs at you yelling is not usually enough to be accepted on face value as creating a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. He may be aquitted, but I'm betting he goes to trial.
My dogs are never off leash, but if one somehow got off and ran up to someone I would be running after it and yelling for it too. If that person suddenly draws a handgun, I can guarantee they'll be looking down the barrel of my .45. I have no idea if they're going to shoot at my dog or me, or both. Now we have two strangers who have drawn loaded firearms in a very tense and fast moving situation. The other guy drew first, and if he swings that muzzle anywhere near me there's gonna be a gunfight. Regardless of who wins (since most people on this board somehow assume they'll emerge the victor in any gunbattle) which one of us is in the wrong? He was scared of the dog. I was scared of him. That decision, like the one in this article, will ultimately be up to a grand jury.
My bet is that the grand jury will indict him. The fact that someone runs at you yelling is not usually enough to be accepted on face value as creating a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. He may be aquitted, but I'm betting he goes to trial.
firearms_instructor
Member
OK, I finally gotta say a few things...
I respectfully disagree with pretty much everything Arc Angel has had to say... From WHAT WE KNOW of the facts in this case, putting myself in Fish's shoes, I'm not sure I would've done any different.
D-MAC, your dog has no right to lick me, and if I can prevent it, it isn't gonna happen. I happen to be a person who finds being licked by animals revolting, and I've read about some really horrific diseases that can be spread that way. So you DO NOT have my permission to allow your dog to lick me. I don't care how friendly your dog is, I don't want it jumping on me, licking me, humping my leg, whatever. I respect YOUR personal space, and I require you and yours to respect mine.
I don't know you or your dog, and if your dog were to run towards me, I would yell "NO!!! STOP!!!" while drawing my telescoping baton. If your dog failed to stop when commanded, it would get rapped on the snout or head. I don't want to hurt ANY animals, but my wife's safety and mine come first.
I started carrying my telescoping baton on walks after the last irresponsible dog owner failed to keep his dog on a leash and it charged me and my wife barking and snapping. THAT ******* had the gall to tell me, "it's only a puppy!". It may have been a puppy, but that didn't make it any less fast, aggressive, or sharp of tooth. Thankfully "puppy" stopped when my wife yelled at it, because I was ready to kick the living $h-t out of it if it tried to bite either of us. I have no patience for irresponsible dog owners. What are they thinking when they let their dogs $h-t in the neighbor's yard or run loose in public?
I respectfully disagree with pretty much everything Arc Angel has had to say... From WHAT WE KNOW of the facts in this case, putting myself in Fish's shoes, I'm not sure I would've done any different.
D-MAC, your dog has no right to lick me, and if I can prevent it, it isn't gonna happen. I happen to be a person who finds being licked by animals revolting, and I've read about some really horrific diseases that can be spread that way. So you DO NOT have my permission to allow your dog to lick me. I don't care how friendly your dog is, I don't want it jumping on me, licking me, humping my leg, whatever. I respect YOUR personal space, and I require you and yours to respect mine.
I don't know you or your dog, and if your dog were to run towards me, I would yell "NO!!! STOP!!!" while drawing my telescoping baton. If your dog failed to stop when commanded, it would get rapped on the snout or head. I don't want to hurt ANY animals, but my wife's safety and mine come first.
I started carrying my telescoping baton on walks after the last irresponsible dog owner failed to keep his dog on a leash and it charged me and my wife barking and snapping. THAT ******* had the gall to tell me, "it's only a puppy!". It may have been a puppy, but that didn't make it any less fast, aggressive, or sharp of tooth. Thankfully "puppy" stopped when my wife yelled at it, because I was ready to kick the living $h-t out of it if it tried to bite either of us. I have no patience for irresponsible dog owners. What are they thinking when they let their dogs $h-t in the neighbor's yard or run loose in public?
Kilroy
Member
Last St. Bernard I was near, was trying to bite my left ear off of my head, after pinning me over a car. A Speer 200 gr. out of a .45 ACP dropped it in it's tracks. Owner was already fending off two vicious dog law suits, which cost him his hotel. He was the first to say "my dog don't bite" and what he really meant was that his dog did not bite him much (as his local police record revealed).
Next was a family pet/Doberman, that didn't bite either, except for two chomps on my left calf and one on my right. A .357 110 gr. JHP went in the right chest and out the left leg, causing the dog to be startled and not all that much affected. Dog was later shot with multiple shotgun blasts right after jumping the fence at a day care center.
We once had training, to include a professionally done video, on the use of a baton to scare aggressive dogs off. A snappy baton extension was supposed to make them run away without further problems. My bad luck...first aggressive chow I tried it with, had not seen the video.
Famous last words..."my dog (unleashed) don't bite."
Keep 'em on a leash, use a choke chain and use a muzzle for anything that barks.
Next was a family pet/Doberman, that didn't bite either, except for two chomps on my left calf and one on my right. A .357 110 gr. JHP went in the right chest and out the left leg, causing the dog to be startled and not all that much affected. Dog was later shot with multiple shotgun blasts right after jumping the fence at a day care center.
We once had training, to include a professionally done video, on the use of a baton to scare aggressive dogs off. A snappy baton extension was supposed to make them run away without further problems. My bad luck...first aggressive chow I tried it with, had not seen the video.
Famous last words..."my dog (unleashed) don't bite."
Keep 'em on a leash, use a choke chain and use a muzzle for anything that barks.
Guns_and_Labs
Member
He or she is presumably going to shoot whichever constitutes a reasonable threat of great bodily injury. Given a choice between a dog bite and a guy screaming at me with a gun in his hand, I guess I'd have to switch targets and put two COM then look for the dog.
But more realistically, you shouldn't assume that your dog won't do injury. I had a german shepherd that was a wonderful family dog, great with kids, licked anyone within range, and never jumped up -- until the day he slipped his tether and, without warning (not even a growl), jumped and bit a vagrant who had come to the front door for a handout. I had to put the dog down and pay the medical bills.
You just proved my point. When you pull a gun in a public place you have just escalated the situation. You drew first and unless you have a badge in your other hand I'm going to be ready to defend myself. And as you stated, you would switch targets and...shall we say...TRY to put two COM. Obviously a very bad outcome, so I'd want to be pretty darned sure that dog is presenting enough of a threat to warrant it.
And I don't know what you mean by "more realistically." I guess that's kinda what I'm driving at. A lot of people on this board seem to be prepared (at least on the internet ) to start brandishing a weapon as if they're the only ones in the world who carry one. Realistically if you draw a weapon in public you'd better expect people around you to react.
And I don't know what you mean by "more realistically." I guess that's kinda what I'm driving at. A lot of people on this board seem to be prepared (at least on the internet
) to start brandishing a weapon as if they're the only ones in the world who carry one. Realistically if you draw a weapon in public you'd better expect people around you to react.orangeninja
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2003
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- 3,117
I will comment saying this....I own a dog that is a "sporting" dog. Loves to chase kids, birds, rabbits, etc. That being said I keep him on a leash at all times. Once a kid ran by him yelling somthing like "come get me" and my dog took off which yanked the leash right out of my hand. I chased the dog but already had my hand on my gun....simply because if my dog lit into a kid, I'm going to kill the dog right then and there. Of course it'll be a sad thing, but I will NOT put my DOGS life before the well being of a kid. Not on any day. Since that time I am paranoid about that dog and the size of the leash I use.
I would get rid of him but my wife......
BTW for those concerned about the kid.....he got away. See, my dog likes to chase and bark but doesn't like a fight. To him it's a game so he won't bite either. I still don't take chances though. Nobody can predict a dog ALL the time.
I would get rid of him but my wife......
BTW for those concerned about the kid.....he got away. See, my dog likes to chase and bark but doesn't like a fight. To him it's a game so he won't bite either. I still don't take chances though. Nobody can predict a dog ALL the time.
Guns_and_Labs
Member
For people afraid of or generally unfamiliar with dogs, they do believe they are subject to serious damage. That's the "reasonable threat", which is the test for drawing one's firearm. Just because we dog handlers realize that very few dogs are life threatening doesn't mean that an opinion to the contrary is unreasonable.
If your dog gets loose and runs toward someone afraid of dogs, you are the one that's escalated the threat by proxy. Up my way, we just had a very public case about the culpability of the dog's owner in a fatal dog mauling. The dog's handler was found culpable for the dog's attack and the woman's death.
I usually wear the badge on my chest so that I can use both hands to shoot.
As an officer then, you know what legal escalation is. By letting my dog get loose I can be considered to have created the threat. Drawing a firearm is escalation. Just as shoving someone in a parking lot is creating the threat, but the other guy pulling a knife is escalation.
And just in case I haven't been clear, I'm not in any way advocating shooting a person to defend a dog. What I'm saying is that as far as I (or anyone) knows, someone who draws a gun in a park can reasonably be considered a threat to pretty much everyone around them. I'm gonna be ready to react. If he's drawing because he's clearly being threatened I may assume he's normal. If he's drawing cuz someone's chihuahua is running in his general direction he's a potential lunatic. If their next action is to point that handgun at me there will be gunfire. As a private citizen I have no way of knowing if he's a homicidal maniac on PCP or a really nice guy who was afraid of dogs. But I ain't waitin' til he shoots me to find out.
And as an officer, you get the luxury of the benefit of the doubt if you draw your weapon. Nobody else does.
And just in case I haven't been clear, I'm not in any way advocating shooting a person to defend a dog. What I'm saying is that as far as I (or anyone) knows, someone who draws a gun in a park can reasonably be considered a threat to pretty much everyone around them. I'm gonna be ready to react. If he's drawing because he's clearly being threatened I may assume he's normal. If he's drawing cuz someone's chihuahua is running in his general direction he's a potential lunatic. If their next action is to point that handgun at me there will be gunfire. As a private citizen I have no way of knowing if he's a homicidal maniac on PCP or a really nice guy who was afraid of dogs. But I ain't waitin' til he shoots me to find out.
And as an officer, you get the luxury of the benefit of the doubt if you draw your weapon. Nobody else does.
Guns_and_Labs
Member
You've obviously not heard about the Army experiments in Arizona involving killer chihuahuas...sorry, couldn't help myself. But, believe me, some of the dog-fearing public can't tell the difference between the threat of a chihuahua and a presa canario. Sad, but true.
Seems reasonable. But the DA is going to argue that you, as the dog's owner, should have reasonably concluded that the gun was drawn in response to the imminent danger of your dog charging, your reckless disregard in handling, etc. Who knows where the jury would come out, of course, but I'd put my money on the prosecution.
MacPelto
Member
I don't know the law in the state where this occured, but in Texas, a charging dog can be shown to meet the definition of a threat of deadly force, so pulling a gun isn't 'escalation'. So yes, you created a threat, of deadly force, which can legally be responded to in kind.
fix
Member
So if the guy's dog hops the fence and charges you, could you then kick in his front door and shoot him in his living room?
This debate has clearly turned into a classic "I like dogs vs I hate dogs" debate. Let's all try to remember that there was a real live human killed in this instance. The dogs are on the periphery.
MacPelto
Member
Hmm, I'm pretty sure that I didn't even imply anything about kicking doors in
...but you could clearly shoot the dog.fix
Member
So it was the dog that initiated deadly force. Ahh, I get it. So what does that have to do with the price of tea in China as it relates to this story? The guy didn't shoot the dogs, he shot the man.
MacPelto
Member
QUOTE]So it was the dog that initiated deadly force. Ahh, I get it. So what does that have to do with the price of tea in China as it relates to this story? The guy didn't shoot the dogs, he shot the man. [/QUOTE]
What does it have to do with the story in the first post? Well, as the discussion went along, JGReed claimed that pulling out a gun to deal with a charging dog was an escalation of force. My point was that this isn't necessarily so everywhere.
See, reading the quote in a post helps give it context.
What does it have to do with the story in the first post? Well, as the discussion went along, JGReed claimed that pulling out a gun to deal with a charging dog was an escalation of force. My point was that this isn't necessarily so everywhere.
See, reading the quote in a post helps give it context.
fix
Member
[George Costanza voice]Read the post? Read the post? Who does that anymore?!!! [/George Costanza voice]
I admit freely to skimming.
I admit freely to skimming.
goalie
Member
Because the dogs were smarter than the dead guy, they stopped attacking when a warning shot was fired.......the man didn't.
FWIW, this has been eye opening to me. The idea that some of you would repond so violently to someone drawing a weapon on a dog that you let loose in the first place is quite amazing to me. It is you and your dog that started it, and you had better get some thicker skin, because your dog will be dead and you will be in jail if you actually draw down on someone who is within the law in responding to a reasonable threat.
Like I said before, you can afford to carry a gun or to have a temper, but you cannot afford both. Same goes for unleashed dogs. If you are not going to put a leash on your dog, at least put one on your temper, because your dog may end up attacking someone who just wanted to be left alone.
recap
Unless some facts came out that I missed, the situation is this.
Mr K takes three dogs for a walk and decides to let them run off leash.
The dogs come running over a hill toward Mr F, barking as they come.
Mr F is in fear of attack and fires a warning shot into the ground, dogs apearantly leave.
Mr. K comes running at Mr F yelling and with fists clinched.
Mr K is in fear of being attacked and shoots Mr F, first round at 8ft and 3rd at 6inches.
I believe that most states have pretty much the same criteria for a justifable self defence shooting, would a "reasonable man" "feel" that they were in danger of great harm or death.
Since most people populating a jury are not trained animal handlers, their definition of a "reasonable man" would not require a person to try and out run a dog, nor engage in hand to paw combat when out numbered 3:1. And most "reasonable men" would feel threatened when out numbered 3:1 by big barking dogs that he doesn't know. He was justified in drawing his gun and firing a warning shot, or even killing the lead dog.
Would a "reasonable man" "feel" threatened by a stranger running at them, yelling with fists clinched? If the defendant has presented a firearm, fired a warning shot and the unarmed assailant continues the attack, I believe that most would.
If this isn't self defence, I have no idea what it takes to qualify. We could all engage in endless speculation, but we weren't there. Mr F performed exactly the way I have been instructed, except for firing a warning shot, there he was much more patient then any instructor that I have read of would indicate you should be. He was prepared. He was equipped. He shot straight. He continued untill the threat was removed. He reported it to the authorities.
After reading the rage of some here, I can only imagine the hell that he is going through from his family and co-workers. My sympathies are with him. All of the instructors warn you that the attacks will come. I just never expected it to come from the self defence community. It's a sad day.
Unless some facts came out that I missed, the situation is this.
Mr K takes three dogs for a walk and decides to let them run off leash.
The dogs come running over a hill toward Mr F, barking as they come.
Mr F is in fear of attack and fires a warning shot into the ground, dogs apearantly leave.
Mr. K comes running at Mr F yelling and with fists clinched.
Mr K is in fear of being attacked and shoots Mr F, first round at 8ft and 3rd at 6inches.
I believe that most states have pretty much the same criteria for a justifable self defence shooting, would a "reasonable man" "feel" that they were in danger of great harm or death.
Since most people populating a jury are not trained animal handlers, their definition of a "reasonable man" would not require a person to try and out run a dog, nor engage in hand to paw combat when out numbered 3:1. And most "reasonable men" would feel threatened when out numbered 3:1 by big barking dogs that he doesn't know. He was justified in drawing his gun and firing a warning shot, or even killing the lead dog.
Would a "reasonable man" "feel" threatened by a stranger running at them, yelling with fists clinched? If the defendant has presented a firearm, fired a warning shot and the unarmed assailant continues the attack, I believe that most would.
If this isn't self defence, I have no idea what it takes to qualify. We could all engage in endless speculation, but we weren't there. Mr F performed exactly the way I have been instructed, except for firing a warning shot, there he was much more patient then any instructor that I have read of would indicate you should be. He was prepared. He was equipped. He shot straight. He continued untill the threat was removed. He reported it to the authorities.
After reading the rage of some here, I can only imagine the hell that he is going through from his family and co-workers. My sympathies are with him. All of the instructors warn you that the attacks will come. I just never expected it to come from the self defence community. It's a sad day.
firearms_instructor
Member
"If you are not going to put a leash on your dog, at least put one on your temper, because your dog may end up attacking someone who just wanted to be left alone." - EXACTLY what he said. When I'm out walking with my wife, I wish to be left alone with my wife. I consider it very presumptuous and inconsiderate for you to let your animal interact with me (jump, lick, bark, snap, hump) without asking me first. Got manners?
I like dogs just like I like children - at a distance. If I wanted dogs or children, I'd have them. Please keep yours to yourself. BTW, what's a useful and appropriate way to keep dogs from pooping in my yard? Don't have my own yard yet, but there are way too many ******** in this neighborhood who do not obey the 'poop-scoop' laws. I am interested in making THEM feel most unwelcome.
I like dogs just like I like children - at a distance. If I wanted dogs or children, I'd have them. Please keep yours to yourself. BTW, what's a useful and appropriate way to keep dogs from pooping in my yard? Don't have my own yard yet, but there are way too many ******** in this neighborhood who do not obey the 'poop-scoop' laws. I am interested in making THEM feel most unwelcome.
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