MillCreek- I have yet to hear of a physcian asking if the family had a swimming pool at home. Or a swing set. Or a trampoline. This nonsense about advising patients on the evils of guns came from the AMA at the urging of gun control groups. It is NOT something generated by a concern for patient's health and well being. It is anti-gun propaganda. Period.
Family Doctor said guns should be locked up or they can hurt people
- Thread starter AirPower
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MillCreek
Member
As to the essay by Mr. Horn, he is clearly not a healthcare risk management expert. I am. I have been doing malpractice claims defense and risk management for 21 years now. Noting that Mr. Horn retired from the LA County Sheriffs Department, I suspect he has never worked on a malpractice case in his life. His 'risk management advice' is more a reflection of his personal political beliefs, which is fine, but I would not allow my professional advice to be manipulated by my personal political beliefs.
Just about any physician, healthcare risk manager or malpractice insurance executive (I was one for 18 years) would roll their eyes at his advice. If you give his theory credence, then a physician should be sued for not advising a patient to have firearms. In the several hundred cases I have worked on so far, I have not yet seen such a case, nor do I expect to before retirement.
Now, in my opinion, there is no argument whatsoever that some aspects of organized medicine have a clear agenda regarding gun control, complete with studies of dubious statistical provenance to support this.
But the fact remains that large numbers of physicians, many of whom own firearms themselves, honestly feel that firearms ownership by some people, or unsafe firearms storage, poses a health threat to either individuals or the population as a whole. We may disagree with their opinions, but we should respect their right to have such opinions.
Just about any physician, healthcare risk manager or malpractice insurance executive (I was one for 18 years) would roll their eyes at his advice. If you give his theory credence, then a physician should be sued for not advising a patient to have firearms. In the several hundred cases I have worked on so far, I have not yet seen such a case, nor do I expect to before retirement.
Now, in my opinion, there is no argument whatsoever that some aspects of organized medicine have a clear agenda regarding gun control, complete with studies of dubious statistical provenance to support this.
But the fact remains that large numbers of physicians, many of whom own firearms themselves, honestly feel that firearms ownership by some people, or unsafe firearms storage, poses a health threat to either individuals or the population as a whole. We may disagree with their opinions, but we should respect their right to have such opinions.
good posts here, but my original beef with this incident was this IRRATIONAL fear of guns. The Doc was treating guns as vicious dogs, as if they will leap at you if they're not secured. If you have responsible people in the house, then there's nothing to fear. On the othe hand, I absolutely believe that if you have kids who do not have the capability to act responsibly, guns should be secured, but it is your house and if you want to lock them up that's fine, but if you want to leave them out, then that's your right too. A house is man's castle, and any intrusion into it is already a criminal activity. Gun owners should not be blamed for keeping guns in the house, and then have them stolen should a break in occur, and then be blamed for drug gun crimes.
Zundfolge
Member
Gun control (and "safe storage laws") are based on flawed science and outright lies.
If my doctor believes we'd all be safer with our guns locked up (and is so convinced that he feels the need to lecture me) then he's showing his lack of understanding of a scientific matter ... so how can I trust him to evaluate any medical condition I've come to him with?
If my doctor believes this crap then its no different then if he believes in drilling holes in my head to "let the evil spirits out".
fire him and find a doctor who is a man of science ... not politically driven pseudo science.
If my doctor believes we'd all be safer with our guns locked up (and is so convinced that he feels the need to lecture me) then he's showing his lack of understanding of a scientific matter ... so how can I trust him to evaluate any medical condition I've come to him with?
If my doctor believes this crap then its no different then if he believes in drilling holes in my head to "let the evil spirits out".
fire him and find a doctor who is a man of science ... not politically driven pseudo science.
reload4me2
Member
My 2 cents
Please excuse any typing errors - I am terrible at typing.
I am a practicing physician and have been in practice for over 20 years. My practice is almost entirely folks over 55.
There is a push for questioning on gun storage as part of accident prevention/public health concerns. It is my own opinon that the group that writes the policy position on these things is not at all familiar with firearms, and like all academia is more leftist in there view toward the general public (aka "WE know what is good for you").
I generally do not enquire about firearm storage except for a few instances. The most common one for me is that many of my patients are getting on in years and having problems related to dementia, which sometimes can have associated paronia - a bad combination. I have asked family members to remove firearms from the house in that scenario. If the patient is big time depressed and tells me he is considering shooting himself - yes I definately want the gun(s) removed, temporarily until things get better. If the grand kids are coming, I will remind my patients of the need to be vigilant if they have firearms available.
When I meet a new patient, if they indicate they hunt or shoot, I might (generlly do) ask what they shoot and indicate that I shoot as well. Then they get the standard hearing protection lecture.
My tactic on this would be the following: you can be polite, but firm and state: yes I do have firearms and they are stored appropriately, a term they may perceive as one thing and you another. If they start to pressure you, and you have taken safety/instructior courses - I would state so. Beyond that your business is YOUR business. From my own experience, most of my physician peers have little gun knowledge.
FYI, I have some HMO patients. The HMO has standards as to what should be in a physical exam for their patients. One of the HMOs I have a contract with specifically wants the percent of the time a seat belt is used, and recommendation for 100% use. I tell the patient that Your HMO requires me to ask you this when I ask. The HMOs I work with do not have enquires about firearms, yet, but I would not be surprised to see it come down the road as the general publlic continues to get brainwashed and becomes more gunphobic.
Please excuse any typing errors - I am terrible at typing.
I am a practicing physician and have been in practice for over 20 years. My practice is almost entirely folks over 55.
There is a push for questioning on gun storage as part of accident prevention/public health concerns. It is my own opinon that the group that writes the policy position on these things is not at all familiar with firearms, and like all academia is more leftist in there view toward the general public (aka "WE know what is good for you").
I generally do not enquire about firearm storage except for a few instances. The most common one for me is that many of my patients are getting on in years and having problems related to dementia, which sometimes can have associated paronia - a bad combination. I have asked family members to remove firearms from the house in that scenario. If the patient is big time depressed and tells me he is considering shooting himself - yes I definately want the gun(s) removed, temporarily until things get better. If the grand kids are coming, I will remind my patients of the need to be vigilant if they have firearms available.
When I meet a new patient, if they indicate they hunt or shoot, I might (generlly do) ask what they shoot and indicate that I shoot as well. Then they get the standard hearing protection lecture.
My tactic on this would be the following: you can be polite, but firm and state: yes I do have firearms and they are stored appropriately, a term they may perceive as one thing and you another. If they start to pressure you, and you have taken safety/instructior courses - I would state so. Beyond that your business is YOUR business. From my own experience, most of my physician peers have little gun knowledge.
FYI, I have some HMO patients. The HMO has standards as to what should be in a physical exam for their patients. One of the HMOs I have a contract with specifically wants the percent of the time a seat belt is used, and recommendation for 100% use. I tell the patient that Your HMO requires me to ask you this when I ask. The HMOs I work with do not have enquires about firearms, yet, but I would not be surprised to see it come down the road as the general publlic continues to get brainwashed and becomes more gunphobic.
Old Fud
Member
Thank you Doctor.
I appreciated your description of the situation and your advice.
You can be my doctor any time.
Fud
I appreciated your description of the situation and your advice.
You can be my doctor any time.
Fud
One's Political views are personal and not subject to disclosure to anyone! I do not think a healthcare provider can refuse coverage on this issue alone. What would be next -- Religion, Politcal Party affiliation, etc? All this is just another attempt by the LIBS to get their way since they cannot get legislation passed to support their misguided agenda! The goal is to recondition America to the idea that firearms are "BAD" for everyone and they are accomplishing this DAILY thru the Press, Schools (beginning at the Elementary School level), Medical Profession, etc. The ultimate goal is to disarm America's civilian population in a couple of generations and they are well on their way to accomplishing their agenda.
You do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out!
Last edited:
TonkinTwentyMil
Member
These Are Gun-grabbing Doctors!
A few years ago, another off-shoot of the various anti-gun groups was established: "Physicians For Social Responsibility."
These folks have, in turn, lent their names and professional credibility to the Million Moms and other anti-gun/anti-self-defense whiners. They've also placed anti-gun ads in newspapers. And, they're actively trying to expand their membership by recruiting new physicians to their cause... and selling a ton of junk-science about "The Dangers Of Guns" in the process. These folks are blatantly liberal-pacifist-cultural elitists. If I recall correctly, they also supported a certain lying, military-resume-inflating Massachussetts senator who thought he could snooker gun owners by staging faked hunting photo ops when he ran (unsuccessfully) for president.
If your doctor makes any such inquiries about your firearms:
1. He/She is admitting that he's a member of this anti-gun organization.
2. He's essentially inquiring about your politics.
3. He's possibly collecting info that could be used against you -- for medical insurance OR (future) legal purposes.
4. He's OUT OF BOUNDS.
The various medical professional associations (i.e., the AMA, etc.) are rife with their own politics. However, the worst -- and the most "liberal" in their politics -- are the "shrink" sub-set associations, like the American Psychiatric Association. They've long been actively anti-gun. When my ex-wife's shrink learned I had guns (this was 20 yrs. ago!), he actually wanted to "turn me in to the police" -- because he thought ownership was (or should be) illegal!
Question: If guns are ever subject to some confiscatory legislation ("For The Children"), does your admitting to owning them (to your doctor) constitute Probable Cause for the JBT's to kick down your door to grab them?
Accordingly, as Mudpuppy implied earlier, you need to (a) immediately clam up, (b) tell the good doctor he's a privacy-invading @$$-hole, (c) ask him what dangerous/unregistered sex toys are in HIS home, and (d) then seriously consider finding a new physician.
If my doctor asks me this stuff, I think I'll tell him this: my lawyerS (emphasis on the plural) advise me not to discuss anything that might cause the doctor to think ill of me and, thus, beget inferior medical treatment that could lead to a big malpractice lawsuit.
A few years ago, another off-shoot of the various anti-gun groups was established: "Physicians For Social Responsibility."
These folks have, in turn, lent their names and professional credibility to the Million Moms and other anti-gun/anti-self-defense whiners. They've also placed anti-gun ads in newspapers. And, they're actively trying to expand their membership by recruiting new physicians to their cause... and selling a ton of junk-science about "The Dangers Of Guns" in the process. These folks are blatantly liberal-pacifist-cultural elitists. If I recall correctly, they also supported a certain lying, military-resume-inflating Massachussetts senator who thought he could snooker gun owners by staging faked hunting photo ops when he ran (unsuccessfully) for president.
If your doctor makes any such inquiries about your firearms:
1. He/She is admitting that he's a member of this anti-gun organization.
2. He's essentially inquiring about your politics.
3. He's possibly collecting info that could be used against you -- for medical insurance OR (future) legal purposes.
4. He's OUT OF BOUNDS.
The various medical professional associations (i.e., the AMA, etc.) are rife with their own politics. However, the worst -- and the most "liberal" in their politics -- are the "shrink" sub-set associations, like the American Psychiatric Association. They've long been actively anti-gun. When my ex-wife's shrink learned I had guns (this was 20 yrs. ago!), he actually wanted to "turn me in to the police" -- because he thought ownership was (or should be) illegal!
Question: If guns are ever subject to some confiscatory legislation ("For The Children"), does your admitting to owning them (to your doctor) constitute Probable Cause for the JBT's to kick down your door to grab them?
Accordingly, as Mudpuppy implied earlier, you need to (a) immediately clam up, (b) tell the good doctor he's a privacy-invading @$$-hole, (c) ask him what dangerous/unregistered sex toys are in HIS home, and (d) then seriously consider finding a new physician.
If my doctor asks me this stuff, I think I'll tell him this: my lawyerS (emphasis on the plural) advise me not to discuss anything that might cause the doctor to think ill of me and, thus, beget inferior medical treatment that could lead to a big malpractice lawsuit.
Sylvilagus Aquaticus
Member
I don't have that sort of problem.
I met my doctor at a bookstore, where he was reading The Shotgun News. He was there, incidentally, for one of those 'dine-and-dash' things that pharmaceutical reps put on every so often to hand out freebies and brochures for the new drug du jour. We got to talking and I found out what type pf practice he had, got his card, and started seeing him as my family practitioner.
He collects Mosin-Nagants. He's trying very hard to find time to get into AK variants.
Every time I see him the first thing discussed is 'what'd you buy lately?'...then we'd get to the business at hand.
Screening your physician as you would any other prospective employee should be a priority.
Regards,
Rabbit (R.N., BS.N.)
I met my doctor at a bookstore, where he was reading The Shotgun News. He was there, incidentally, for one of those 'dine-and-dash' things that pharmaceutical reps put on every so often to hand out freebies and brochures for the new drug du jour. We got to talking and I found out what type pf practice he had, got his card, and started seeing him as my family practitioner.
He collects Mosin-Nagants. He's trying very hard to find time to get into AK variants.
Every time I see him the first thing discussed is 'what'd you buy lately?'...then we'd get to the business at hand.
Screening your physician as you would any other prospective employee should be a priority.
Regards,
Rabbit (R.N., BS.N.)
This reminds me of something I've read about a guy who went to a doctor. The doctor ask him if he drinked, and he said yes a six pack a day at home. The state(PA I think) has a law requiring doctors to report any condiction of thier patens to the DMV that will impare thier driving. The poor guy didn't drink and drive.
The DMV revoked the patens licenese. The guy almost lost his job because of it.
Your doctor may not be asking you questions because of your health.
-Bill
The DMV revoked the patens licenese. The guy almost lost his job because of it.
Your doctor may not be asking you questions because of your health.
-Bill
M2 Carbine
member
If a doctor asks me about my guns he had better be a shooter or he's in for one education.
If he wants to push his/AMA's antigun agenda on me, I will at least see that he knows what he's talking about.
I don't have such a problem anyhow. My doctor is a hunter that's been to Africa twice. We always spend some of my visit talking about shooting.
I usually leave my gun in the car when I see him but a few trips ago I had it on me thinking it was going to be a quick visit.
When I had to disrobe I placed my gun on his table, which lead to a discussion of my carry gun.
If he wants to push his/AMA's antigun agenda on me, I will at least see that he knows what he's talking about.
I don't have such a problem anyhow. My doctor is a hunter that's been to Africa twice. We always spend some of my visit talking about shooting.
I usually leave my gun in the car when I see him but a few trips ago I had it on me thinking it was going to be a quick visit.
When I had to disrobe I placed my gun on his table, which lead to a discussion of my carry gun.
El Tejon
Member
reload, thanks for the info, appreciate it. Of course it's a little different out here. Last time I saw my doc he was raving about how wonderful his lasik surgery was, "it's really helped my trap scores."
Of course it's a little different out here. Last time I saw my doc he was raving about how wonderful his lasik surgery was, "it's really helped my trap scores." Luckily, we not seen this "weapon-phobia" stuff around here till the other day. My wife took my daughter to our long time pediatrician. During the physical exam the lady doctor calls my wife outside. She whispers to my wife: "Are you aware that your daughter has a WEAPON in her pocket? She's got a knife." My wife, puzzled by the doctor's concern answered with: "So?" "She has a knife, in her pocket." My wife tells her that my daughter loves wood working and she often uses her "weapon", an Old Timer three blade, to whittle.
I couldn't believe this lady would get her panties in a bunch over an Old Timer.
I couldn't believe this lady would get her panties in a bunch over an Old Timer.
30 cal slob
Member
Funny, I figured a really concerned doc would ask me
1) If I wore my seat belt every time I drove
2) If I wore a helmet every time I went riding
3) If I fastened a condom every time I, er, went riding
4) If I kept pesticides and household chemicals and plastic bags within easy reach of kids
5) If I had a swimming pool or unusually large bathtub at home
6) If I had any neckties at home (don't you know little kids can strangle themselves with those dangerous neckties? some of us adults come damn near close to doing every day)
7) If I washed my hands before I picked my nose (diggin fer gold)
8) If I washed my hands after I picked my nose
9) If I stored my garden rake on the floor with the tines up
10) If I kept any sharp kitchen knives (we need more knife control)
11) If I kept any fatty foods in the fridge
...
before asking me if I had any guns in the house.
1) If I wore my seat belt every time I drove
2) If I wore a helmet every time I went riding
3) If I fastened a condom every time I, er, went riding
4) If I kept pesticides and household chemicals and plastic bags within easy reach of kids
5) If I had a swimming pool or unusually large bathtub at home
6) If I had any neckties at home (don't you know little kids can strangle themselves with those dangerous neckties? some of us adults come damn near close to doing every day)
7) If I washed my hands before I picked my nose (diggin fer gold)
8) If I washed my hands after I picked my nose
9) If I stored my garden rake on the floor with the tines up
10) If I kept any sharp kitchen knives (we need more knife control)
11) If I kept any fatty foods in the fridge
...
before asking me if I had any guns in the house.
Waitone
Member
"Do you have any guns (jewelry) in your house?"
"Are they locked up in a safe (drawer) out of sight?"
Both are valuable portable, and fenceable. Never mind the privacy and second amendment issues. Its just dumb to tell strangers you have valuable possessions in your house.
"Are they locked up in a safe (drawer) out of sight?"
Both are valuable portable, and fenceable. Never mind the privacy and second amendment issues. Its just dumb to tell strangers you have valuable possessions in your house.
Bear Gulch
Member
I teach Bowhunter ed with my doc!
I really don't feel that they need to have my guns issues in a chart that my insurance company has access to. I fear big brother in the form of corporate invasion of my privacy.
I really don't feel that they need to have my guns issues in a chart that my insurance company has access to. I fear big brother in the form of corporate invasion of my privacy.
J Miller
Member
I live in the Peoples Democratic Republic of Illinois. Due to my financial status, unemployed and somewhat cripled up, I'm forced to use the public clinic for medical treatment. Therefore I don't have the ability to screen my doctors.
As of now none of them have asked anything about my ownership of guns. But, if they do, I don't care how polite they are, why they ask, or if they are genuinely concerned about my health. In the doctors office everything you tell them goes into your charts and records. Therefore it's subject to government scruteny and privacy invasion. Yes I said government scruteny. There is a form we have had to sign that states that if any law enforcement agency asks, the records will be made available to them. Legal or not, I don't know, but it's there.
So even if the doctor is a shooter or gun owner, as long as my visit is an official office visit, IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS weather or not I own gun, how I store them or weather or not I keep loaded guns for home defense. And I will politely tell them that, and have so instructed my wife.
Oh, and for those who have made snide comments about others who don't lock up all their guns, and have thanked them for contributing to the criminals having guns, stuff it! It's not the gun owners fault the stinkin theves are steeling. It's the theves fault.
Not everyone can afford a gun safe, and not everyone lives in a house that is capable of physically supporting the weight of a safe. For example: this house I live in is a rental. Can you imaging how the landlord would act if I asked him to reinforce the flore joists so I could put in a heavy gun safe?
As for putting the safe in the basement, it floods .......... need I say more?
We do the best we can with what we have. As our abilities increase, what we do increases.
Joe
As of now none of them have asked anything about my ownership of guns. But, if they do, I don't care how polite they are, why they ask, or if they are genuinely concerned about my health. In the doctors office everything you tell them goes into your charts and records. Therefore it's subject to government scruteny and privacy invasion. Yes I said government scruteny. There is a form we have had to sign that states that if any law enforcement agency asks, the records will be made available to them. Legal or not, I don't know, but it's there.
So even if the doctor is a shooter or gun owner, as long as my visit is an official office visit, IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS weather or not I own gun, how I store them or weather or not I keep loaded guns for home defense. And I will politely tell them that, and have so instructed my wife.
Oh, and for those who have made snide comments about others who don't lock up all their guns, and have thanked them for contributing to the criminals having guns, stuff it! It's not the gun owners fault the stinkin theves are steeling. It's the theves fault.
Not everyone can afford a gun safe, and not everyone lives in a house that is capable of physically supporting the weight of a safe. For example: this house I live in is a rental. Can you imaging how the landlord would act if I asked him to reinforce the flore joists so I could put in a heavy gun safe?
As for putting the safe in the basement, it floods .......... need I say more?
We do the best we can with what we have. As our abilities increase, what we do increases.
Joe
jacketch
Member
All gun control is really people control.
Double Maduro
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
- Messages
- 1,125
Millcreek said,
This may be why you see things as you do. The rest of us don't have your years of experience working for the groups that appear to be infringing on our rights.
I will not answer any questions about firearms, seatbelts, helmets, or anything else that doesn't have anything to do with health issues.
I don't believe the insurance companies, and medical societies, are gathering this information for our good. I predict a time when if you own a firearm it will be much harder to get health insurance.
Call me paranoid. I may be, but that doesn't mean they aren't out to get us.
DM
This may be why you see things as you do. The rest of us don't have your years of experience working for the groups that appear to be infringing on our rights.
I will not answer any questions about firearms, seatbelts, helmets, or anything else that doesn't have anything to do with health issues.
I don't believe the insurance companies, and medical societies, are gathering this information for our good. I predict a time when if you own a firearm it will be much harder to get health insurance.
Call me paranoid. I may be, but that doesn't mean they aren't out to get us.
DM
TonkinTwentyMil
Member
PSR - more
Like I said earlier, y'all need to do a quick Google search on this "Physicians for Social Responsibility" (PSR) group. They DO have a political agenda.
They're a Washington, D.C. based non-profit, with chapters in most states. Their mission statement states they seek a world free of nuclear and "gun violence." They advocate a "multilateral" (i.e., pro U.N.) approach to terrorism.
The next time any doctor asks you about your evil guns/weapons, just look him squarely in the eye and ask him:
(a) what HIS political affiliation is, who he voted for in '04, and who he supports for '08, (b) what TV shows he watches (always a big litmus test) -- and if "West Wing" is one of 'em, and (c) if he's a member of PSR.
They can't beat us at the ballot box, so they're trying to use Politically Correct indoctrination by physicians (and the usual nanny-state teachers/academics/suspects) to Change/Improve society in the name of Social Progress -- because they know what's best for us. In summary, these guys are just another brand of liberal-pacifist social activists who want to re-write the Constitution and turn the world into one big fluffy day-care center (**cough**) For The Children.
Spread the word, resist, and squash 'em like a bug.
Like I said earlier, y'all need to do a quick Google search on this "Physicians for Social Responsibility" (PSR) group. They DO have a political agenda.
They're a Washington, D.C. based non-profit, with chapters in most states. Their mission statement states they seek a world free of nuclear and "gun violence." They advocate a "multilateral" (i.e., pro U.N.) approach to terrorism.
The next time any doctor asks you about your evil guns/weapons, just look him squarely in the eye and ask him:
(a) what HIS political affiliation is, who he voted for in '04, and who he supports for '08, (b) what TV shows he watches (always a big litmus test) -- and if "West Wing" is one of 'em, and (c) if he's a member of PSR.
They can't beat us at the ballot box, so they're trying to use Politically Correct indoctrination by physicians (and the usual nanny-state teachers/academics/suspects) to Change/Improve society in the name of Social Progress -- because they know what's best for us. In summary, these guys are just another brand of liberal-pacifist social activists who want to re-write the Constitution and turn the world into one big fluffy day-care center (**cough**) For The Children.
Spread the word, resist, and squash 'em like a bug.
CTI1USNRET
Member
My doc competes in Cowboy Action matches.
marley
Member
I have never been asked. I was thinking of asking them if they are a thief. Are you casing my house and recording what valuables i might have in it? If my house is broken in to I will be sure to let them that the records are a lead to follow up on. It would only take one bad apple to have this happen. Just a thought. Patrick
sturmruger
Member
Reload4me2 welcome to THR. It is great to have a doctor on here who is a gun guy.
It sounds to me like the questions you ask about firearms in the house are 100% apropiate. Unlike the other Doctors you are looking out for the well being of my your patients.
It sounds to me like the questions you ask about firearms in the house are 100% apropiate. Unlike the other Doctors you are looking out for the well being of my your patients.
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