I'm Coming Around on Open Carry.

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ezypikns

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For the longest time, I just didn't think it was a good idea. I just thought that concealed carry was prefereable. The "Element of Surprise" thing. It was kind of a moot point anyway. Here in Texas we aren't allowed open carry.

I've been reading some things lately though. It seems that open carry is getting so common in so many parts of the country that folks are getting used to seeing people wearing guns and not going into a screaming panic.


The normalization of firearms. Or maybe it should be called the re-normalization of firearms.

How could that possibly be bad?

Is anyone aware of a group or organization here in Texas (or nationally) that I can support in order to further the cause of open carry?

If I had the opportunity I just might try it myself.
 
It wasn't submitted this year last I heard - not sure why though. And yes the normalization to open carry is a good thing i'm thinking. I'm hoping for open carry with a ccw sometime soon. X
 
I like open carry as it pertains to more relaxed gun laws/freedom and I'd happily welcome it here in TX. BUT, for my own reasons I will never open carry in public, besides super gun friendly events. The only advantage I see is being able to carry larger weapons which is nice, but I really believe in the element of surprise. My CHL instructor once explained to our class that a gun on your hip is of no use if a criminal sees it and pops you before you even know whats going on. That may be extreme thinking but its worth mentioning.
 
TXHORNS said:
My CHL instructor once explained to our class that a gun on your hip is of no use if a criminal sees it and pops you before you even know whats going on. That may be extreme thinking but its worth mentioning.

Here we go again. It is always mentioned but never backed up by fact. Your ordinary criminal is not interested in losing his life. They are going to see an armed target and simply move on to the next guy who doesn't appear to be armed. With 99% of the targets out there who are not visibly armed, why in the world would the BG pick the one that was armed? Why wouldn't they simply wait 5 minutes for an unarmed victim to come along?

All the "element of surprise" does is give you the upper hand at being able to defend yourself once a violent attack has started. A visible deterrence, such as an openly carried gun, does just that, deters the violent attack to begin with. I would prefer to deter an attack against me rather than defend myself from an attack that has started.

Each of us is going to have our own personal opinions and I really don't care how anybody else carries their gun. But if you state your reasons why you feel your method of carry is better, I am going to also state why I feel like my method of carry is better. Neither one of us has facts or statistics to back up our points of view. I can't tell you how many criminals have seen a gun and moved on and you can't tell me how many open carriers have been shot because they were carrying a gun visibly.

It also highly depends on the location. I would not open carry in a gang infested area because, in the particular case, I believe it would be seen as a challenge by the gang member and would cause violent actions. But I can't think of any other reason, if not living in a gang area, to not open carry.

There is a guy in Seattle-Tacoma who lives in an area completely infested with drug dealers and hookers who open carries all the time - he is very well respected by the police and completely left alone by the criminals that he sees daily. You can read his actions on opencarry.org in the Washington section, he is DEROS72. I have met him and even bought a gun from a friend of his in his apartment in the middle of the BG infestation so I have seen the place myself.
 
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The only negative I see about open carry is the scream/panic factor from folks who see a man with a gun - similar to what the OP indicated. The ONLY reason I see that as a negative is because law-enforcement is usually called and that wastes time for the person carrying and the LEO. Hopefully, the people of our Country will continue to grow up enough not to scream and call the police, just because someone has a gun.

IMO, criminals are not interested in drawing attention to themselves. If they see you have a gun, I seriously doubt they will attack you. Unless maybe they're crazy enough to try and steal it from you and that would probably mean they don't have a gun.
 
NavyLT said:
Here we go again. It is always mentioned but never backed up by fact. Your ordinary criminal is not interested in losing his life. They are going to see an armed target and simply move on to the next guy who doesn't appear to be armed.

Um, maybe they'll attack because they WANT the gun and/or whatever else they have? I'm sure no armed security guards have ever been attacked while handling/transporting bags of money or servicing an ATM, right? :rolleyes:

It sure isn't hard to get the drop on most people, especially at night. Very easy to follow someone and/or learn their patterns then wait with a baseball bat or something. Gun or no gun, you are NOT getting up from a hit like that to the head. Also, open carry gives them more time to carefully plan their attack since they know what they are up against. The "encounter" is MUCH more likely to be quick and brutal knowing their "prey" is armed ahead of time instead of a "pull knife -> gimme yo wallet, foo..." type deal.

I wish I could find a link to the article, but years ago there was a similar situation where someone was killed because they were "outed" for carrying a gun. Two robbers had people down on the floor in a convenience store. Two guys were friends and his "friend" knew the other carried. He told the guy to "use his gun" and one of the robbers immediately shot and killed him. Why? Because it was now KNOWN to the robber that guy was armed. Maybe he wasn't carrying that day, but the bad guy didn't know that. Consider the same situation if you're open carrying and have to "hit the deck". The robber(s) don't know about that when they bust in and start giving orders. They find out later by seeing it on your hip? At the very LEAST...they take it away from you...or...they kill you outright and then take it.
 
If I recall correctly, open carry was outlawed in Texas about a century ago.

Does anyone know the various arguments put forth in support of that legislation and/or the factors--incidents, societal changes, etc.--that brought up the discussion at the time?
 
So, other than "gangland" or "man with a gun" call, you can see NO possible down open carrying. No possible danger at all?

Oh, and USNA '93 here. ;)
 
scotthsi said:
So, other than "gangland" or "man with a gun" call, you can see NO possible down open carrying. No possible danger at all?

Sure, there is a chance that I may happen to be at the location of a high value target which is under a planned attack by one or more BG's where I may very well get shot. I will give you that. But, to me, that chance is so insignificant to the odds that your ordinary criminal is out looking for an easy few dollars or a credit card and it just isn't worth it to them to face a hardened target to obtain that few dollars or credit card that they are just going to move on.

Think about how many personal attacks on a single citizen there are out there compared to the high value, hostage type robberies. Which do you think you have a greater chance of being in? Now you take the number of personal attacks vs the big robberies, AND couple that with the number of single citizens out there who are not carrying a visible firearm (what would you say? 99% of people don't carry visible firearms?) Now, why in the world would that criminal who is most likely looking for a single target, pick out the hardened, armed target when chances are 100 to 1 that the next guy to come along in a couple of minutes isn't going to be visibly armed?

There is also the statement I hear a lot, "Well, cops get shot because of their guns!" And my answer to that is, cops get shot because they have the ability to arrest the criminal and send them to prison. It's not about the cop's gun, it's about escaping arrest. If it is believed that the cop was shot because of their gun, then one would have to logically conclude that the same cop would not have been shot if they were not carrying a gun. Are we really going to believe that?

My problem with this whole discussion is that both sides tend to make universal statements and apply those statements to try to be convincing that CC is universally better or the OC is universally better. You have to analyze your own situation, your location, how much harrassment you are willing to put up with, how important your rights are to you, how confident you are. I can't tell you what is best for you. You can't tell me what is best for me.

And I have a second reason for open carrying besides deterring a criminal act against me - I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC. There is no part of the Constitution that is under attack more than the right to bear arms. I feel like I can support that right every day in a small way by open carrying and showing those around me that it really is acceptable, legal and even normal for me or any American to care enough about myself and those around me to have the means available to protect ourselves.
 
I could never figure out the "element of surprise" view.

I thought surprise was a useful technique used by predators.

Surprise would be very effective in purposefully killing an attacker.

Unfortunately, I have no intention of purposefully killing anybody. My main goal is avoidance, then in defense if it is required.

I wish to avoid the nessessity of using force entirely. Deterrence is one effective way to achieve this goal.

Can someone please how "the element of surprise" helps in avoiding the use of force? I can obviously see how it makes the use of force more effective, but my objective is to NOT use it in the first place.

How does providing a potential attacker with a false sense of safety discourage a violent encounter, rather than encourage it? (Leading to this wonderful "surprise" I keep reading about being sought after.)
 
To be honest, if OC became legal in TX, I'd be willing to bet that there wouldn't be nearly as many "guy with a gun" calls as there are in other places.

Plus, it would have the advantage of becoming legal (vs. already being legal), meaning news coverage, meaning more of your average joes would know it was legal, further cutting down on panic & phone calls.

Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of non-uniformed people LEO's that walk around with a gun on their hip that no one pays any attention to.
 
There was a recent incident that occured in VA - read the article on another forum - can't find the link - where a pharmacist was attacked in his store.

The robber dashed in and ordered everyone to the floor. Dumbass didn't pay attention because one of the customers was open carrying. That customer shot the robber 3 times. The pharmacist who prior to the incident was almost an anti now open carries to his pharmacy every day.

So much for the theory that open carry is an invitation to get shot first.

I agree with the poster that says predators look for the easy prey. A guy openly carrying a gun may or may not be easy prey but not knowing is enough to turn away any predator but the crazy ones.
 
If I wanted a debate I would have said a 45 is better than a 9mm! I just thought it was worth mentioning to someone who was "coming around" to open carry.

You do it your way and I'll do it mine, which is my only legal choice anyway.
 
Whether you agree with/intend to Open Carry....

may not be the point.....here at least.

Open Carry is maybe another step in the familiarization of the general public with firearms.

We all know that fear of firearms is irrational. Wouldn't it be great if the majority of Americans felt the same way?

That, and another freedom gained. If you have the option you can excercise it or not as you please.
 
Element of Surprise?

I thought about this quite a bit before I started open-carrying (Michigan's UP and Metro-Detroit so far). If you are on the ground at gun point, what makes you think you have any chance of going for your gun without getting shot for moving suddenly? Believe me, people are not generally aware of their surroundings. I walked around with a few friends at a parade for nearly half an hour before someone called over the police to talk to us. Some people even asked "what's going on?", and then people said "see, they have guns." The people sitting right behind us didn't notice!

There are times I don't want my gun out in the open, like in Detroit, because I don't want someone to try to take it. Not to rob me, but because they want the gun. But other than Detroit proper, I prefer to OC. I also CC, and like having the option.
 
I remember back about 20 years ago during hunting season when I was a teenager, we'd go to Hermann Son's steakhouse in Hondo, TX after a trip to the lease. There were more people OC'ing than not, and nobody had a problem with it (including the LEOs); even if it was illegal.

Good times!
 
In another futile attempt to steer the topic back to the original intent:

Whether you intend to/agree with Open Carry was not the original point I was attempting to make.

Open Carry is maybe another step in the familiarization of the general public with firearms.

We all know that fear of firearms is irrational. Wouldn't it be great if the majority of Americans felt the same way?

That, and another freedom gained. If you have the option you can excercise it or not as you please.
 
There is also the statement I hear a lot, "Well, cops get shot because of their guns!" And my answer to that is, cops get shot because they have the ability to arrest the criminal and send them to prison. It's not about the cop's gun, it's about escaping arrest. If it is believed that the cop was shot because of their gun, then one would have to logically conclude that the same cop would not have been shot if they were not carrying a gun. Are we really going to believe that?

Absolutely. Kirkwood, Mo. Police Sgt. William Biggs was shot solely because his murderer wanted his .40 caliber pistol, which had a higher capacity than the perp's .44 Magnum revolver. The shooter used the gun to shoot several others in a gun free zone. Biggs wasn't about to arrest anyone. He was on his way to dinner.

My problem with this whole discussion is that both sides tend to make universal statements and apply those statements to try to be convincing that CC is universally better or the OC is universally better. You have to analyze your own situation, your location, how much harrassment you are willing to put up with, how important your rights are to you, how confident you are. I can't tell you what is best for you. You can't tell me what is best for me.

I think people offer opinions based on their personal environments and situations.

If a perp needs a wallet and a set of wheels, and I am walking to my car in a Wal-Mart lot, I am probably a potential target--and so are all of the other customers.

If the perp wants to do the deed without undo commotion he will likely target people parked near the edge of the lot, and probably those who look most vulnerable. He'll avoid anyone really big and tough looking and people who appear alert and competent. And I think one can assume that if one customer has a gun on his hip, the perp will choose another.

On the other hand If there are a two or three extremely violent and desperate perps, say meth heads, looking for a victim in a more crowded area, the most vulnerable person is probably either an an oblivious person or someone carrying something of value.

It would seem to me that that would rule in a man carrying a gun openly, if the perps thought they could get the jump on him quickly, and rule him out otherwise. Probably not that likely that they would try anything out in the open. Maybe not too big a challenge in a parking lot full of SUVs and vans near an alley and a busy street. Probably no challenge at all on a very crowded sidewalk where the citizen simply cannot keep a distance of more than two or three feet between himself and others in the crowd, I think.

The gun is not only something that can be easily fenced, it can be used in armed robberies or in gang fights--say, to defend against the angry crook to whom the perps owe money. The open carrier advertises that he has one, but the person carrying concealed does not.

So, the risk vs. advantage quotient of carrying one openly would probably vary with the situation and with the nature and motivation of the assailants, and their numbers.

Personally, I would like to be able to show a holstered firearm casually to deter a potential threat. But personally, I would not usually want to advertise that I have an item of real value.

I feel like I can support that right every day in a small way by open carrying and showing those around me that it really is acceptable, legal and even normal for me or any American to care enough about myself and those around me to have the means available to protect ourselves.

More power to you. My belief is that people where I live are so anti-gun that anything that reminds them that guns are lawful will motivate them to try to change that.
 
TXHORNS said:
If I wanted a debate I would have said a 45 is better than a 9mm! I just thought it was worth mentioning to someone who was "coming around" to open carry.

And I thought the opposite view was worth mentioning as well.
 
I like alot of the points I read about open carry that I never thought of. There is no doubt that I would like to have the option. But until then I'll be in sneak attack mode.
 
we can do it here in georgia.OC or CC.

I only do it (OC) during hunting season.

clown
 
If OC were legalized in OK, I would probably carry a larger firearm than I normally do since concealment would not be an issue. I would especially take advantage of it during hot weather so I could avoid extra clothing. I would carefully evaluate my itinerary and surroundings while ensuring my head swivel is fully functional with special attention to setting "Condition Yellow".
 
For you OC guys: Do yall have holsters with some sort of weapon retention on them? Just curious.
 
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