JFK shooting recreation

[JohnKSa]

The problem with the storm drain wasn't the height of the opening, it was the width of the opening. You couldn't get far enough to one side to get line of sight to the target point.

The bullet was FAR from pristine--it only looks that way in the popular photo used to espouse the pristine bullet theory. Other photos show it looks about like you'd expect given that it's a heavy for caliber 6.5mm FMJ bullet with a very thick jacket. It's flattened, slightly bent, and lost some lead that was squeezed out the back of the jacket. It also has a pretty good divot on the side that's opposite the camera in the "pristine bullet photo."

The bullet that hit JFK in the back was far from magic. When you look at the placement of the two at the time of the strike, you can see that the bullet travelled in a straight line.

I have a hard time believing that anyone who's messed around with rifles much could look out the 6th floor window at the x on the pavement and think it's a hard shot. Yes, I know the one LHO used is sealed, but you can look out the one next to it.

As for the scope. One of the shooters (not from the recent TV show) who duplicated the shot ignored the scope entirely and used the iron sights. According to his wife, LHO had practiced with the rifle and would have known if the scope wasn't working. The design of the mount made using the open sights easy.

There's another thread on this and most, if not all, of the objections raised on this thread are discussed on the other.

 

[BluesBear]

As for the single bullet theory, its bunk-- there's no way a bullet could whiz past kennedy's ear, turn around, enter at the throat, blow off the back of his head (as can be clearly seen in the zapruder film) and then turn around, and hit connelly.

Who ever said that the "magic bullet" is the same one that hit Kennedy in the skull?
Everything I have ever heard or read on this, and I am not just a 40th anniversary, Johnny-come-lately to this party, has agreed that the bullet that blows off a chunk-o-skull was a different shot than the "magic bullet".
What can't be agreed on is who fired that shot. Some say LHO, some say "Badge-Man" from behind the fence.

Unless the gummint releases all of their data, we will probably never, ever know the whole truth. And people will be debating this long after we are worm food.

 

[Don Galt]

The details don't matter so much.... all that is necessary is to show that there was a conspiracy.

Since there has been an obvious government coverup-- the inconsistencies in the Warren report, the Warren Reports omitting significant witness statements, the doctoring of the photos of oswald and kennedy's autopsy, the changing autopsy report (Was the first doctor just imagining things?) the hundreds of witnesses with information that has to be ignored for the lone gunman theory to be accepted-- they are all lying? etc. etc.

Occams Razors says that there had to be a conspiracy. The real "conspiracy theory" in the sense of it being a tin-foil hat wearing experience is the idea that Oswald acted alone. You have to accept an amazing number of improbabilities and that an amazing number of people are lying to accept that theory.

The details are useful for proving to those who are unwilling to question what they are told by the government.

But for everyone else, they are not significant. Since there *WAS* a conspiracy to kill JFK, *and* to cover it up, and thus the government had to be involved in the cover up (Who else can doctor autopsy photos? Was the secret service and FBI infiltrated? Which is more plausible, they were infiltrated and never noticed, or someone inside those agencies was in on it?)

If federal agencies were in on it, and they obviously got away with it, they had to have significant support inside the Federal government--- at least at very high levels.

The only reasonable conclusion is we had a coup d'tat in Dallas in 1973. And it seems likely that the faction behind it may still be in power.

 

[BluesBear]

JFK - assinated
RFK - assinated
NJB (aka MM) - mysterious death

What are the odds?

Of course there are some who say you have to factor in Joe Jr & John Jr and that it's just the Kennedy curse. The only curse I see is that we still have Teddy.

 

[Detritus]

there are some who say you have to factor in Joe Jr

THAT death can be laid at the feet of Joe Sr (albeit indirectly) for sending Jr a letter, in the wake of the PT109 incident (THAT'S a subject for another time), that just about came out and SAID "Why aren't you a hero like Jack??".
thus Joe Jr volunteered for a duty on a system plagued with several known, highly fatal, glitches (including a "safety" that was known to cause early detonation if left "on" for too long).

my understanding is that Joe Sr understood WHY Joe Jr had volunteered for the mission and it ate at him the rest of his life that someting HE did led to the death of his eldest son (adn the one that Sr wanted to be POTUSA).


as for teddy..... they say god looks out for drunks and dumb animals, he's got THAT one coming and going!!!

 

[tiberius]

The only reasonable conclusion is we had a coup d'tat in Dallas in 1973. And it seems likely that the faction behind it may still be in power.

Since this "coup d'tat" consisted only of the president, are you suggesting that Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagon, Clinton and the Bushes are all members of the same cabal?

 

[Detritus]

the following is done in jest (well sort of)

first and formost take this post in the joking manner in which it is at least somewhat intended......

let's see.......

Johson wanted to Be POTUS (a DixieCrat [conservative republican mind with a Democrat constituency] if i ever heard of one btw) thus wants JFK knocked off, the "cabal" comes to him and offers him a deal

Nixon: was a good way to get the "public face" of the cabal changed over to what they REALLY were. But is sacrificed through Watergate so that.....


Ford: gets into office as a pay off for complicity in the Warren commision findings and helping cover up "what REALLY happened in Dallas"

Carter: was a "backlash candidate" the Cabal would have been revealed if the election results were blantantly rigged at THAT time... so they wait 4 years and make sure that carter's term is fraught with difficulty for him and the nation thus ensuring he does NOT get elected again (then things are iced with the hostage return etc)

Reagan: the Cabal is now in full control.... an Alsheimers ridden puppet being guided by Bush and other "behind the scenes" controlers

Bush: the Puppet master tries his hand at being the "public face" of things, royally "does awful things to the canine" and thus won't get a second term and the nation is not yet prepped for the blatant riging of an election... the cabal goes back to a rebuild state ad dworks to make whoever DOES get the job look like a right and true "epitome of a politician" and (a whole slew of other phrases i can't use on a "family safe" site)

Clinton: the "rebuild and prep the nation for resumption of control" cover patsy.... does good things with certain social programs, but really torques off the "traditional values crowd" . his term makes DERNED sure that america is prepped to accept, whatever the cabal does as long as it does NOT involve something that results in a possible "continuation of the Clinton status quo"

Shrub (GWB): the Cabal bobbles the Fix, keeping the landslide they MEANT to have from happening, but they are still able to negate the REAL results, so instead we get the first president NOT elected, but "appointed" the cabal now has us by the gonads......

NOW ~stupid silly painful joke mode off~

what do i REALLY think happened in Dallas??

i think that Oswald MAY have been a lone shooter (most likely), or he may have been a patsy to protect whoever really WAS the shooter, regardless it is possible for a single rifleman to get off the three shots there are evidence for (there is evidence of a clean miss that hit the curbing) with the rifle and sights in evidence.
But Oswald was the hired/assigned/whatever-you-want-to-call-it shooter in a plot to kill JFK, NOT some lone nut job. this plot most likely had it's origins in the top levels of the government (Hoover, LBJ, and a whole host of others who saw JFK as a very BAD person to have in the position of POTUS [remember JFK was akin to Clinton with a better set of people to cover his tracks and a rich family to help pay off folks])

so...

Conspiracy? you bet your most precious bits

Oswald, a lone shooter, capable of firing the required shots with stated gear, in time allotted? Yes

again the first section of this post is NOT what i really think was/is going on (i'm not THAT paranoid), i'm trying to make light of things as this thread is getting WAY too serious. JFK has been dead for 40 years, most if not all of those directly involved in the plot to kill him are now dead as well. it's too late to do anything about it now.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Conspiracy Theorist at work

 

[Jack19]

TheBadOne, hahahahahaha

 

[Steel]

what's fascinating is the Italian mob connection, with hit information, including a description of the killing as a 4 shot deal by a fella(s) dressed in "uniform" (also referenced an expoding bullet)

I was surprised by a fact that came out in that show: the 1978 conclusion by the Congressional Committee on Assassination (or whatever it was called) ruled that Oswald made shots #1, #2, and #4 and another shot, #3 was made from the area on or around the grassy knoll -- contradicting the Warren conclusion.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Modern science has already proven through sopund recordings that at least 4 shots were fired.

Actually, it was proven with 1970's science. Modern computer technology has debunked the 4 shot theory.

How did he get the route of the motorcade changed *that* morning to go by the depository? (The route was published in the paper the day before, and did not take that unusual turn to meander by the depository).

Incorrect. The exact route was published in the Dallas Times Herald on November 19th and twice in the Dallas Morning News on the 19th and 20th. There was no change in the route.

The conspiracy gets its route change idea from the November 22nd issue of the Dallas Morning News which showed the wrong route. The incorrect route shown in that issue had the motorcade crossing a concrete divider to get on Stemmons. That was the reason for the previously planned and published route.

Regardless, BOTH routes offered a clear shot from the Depository.

And how did he convince the secret service to take the bubble top off of the limo?

Incorrect. JFK himself ordered the Non-Bulletproof bubble removed from the limo. The sole purpose of the bubble was to protect the riders against the weather. It had no security functions.

BTW, did the conspiracy also ensure JFK wore his back brace to keep his body upright? Without the back brace, he would have fallen over after the first, non-fatal hit in his upper back.

 

[JohnKSa]

Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is usually the correct explanation.

I'm not going to argue for or against the validity of Occam's Razor, but I will say that while there are many conspiracy theories that are quite attractive, I've not seen any that are simpler than the lone gunman explanation.

Therefore, one would have to say that Occam's Razor favors LHO as being the sole shooter.

There is a TON or material out there readily available to the public. I own more than 30 books on the topic and have read many more than that. Still, I doubt that I have read close to half of what's out there. Anyone who wants to know what happened can get a pretty good idea if they're willing put in several months of reading time...

One of the first things I found out was that anything Jim Garrison said wasn't worth the hot air it took to make the sounds. It's ironic that Oliver Stone picked such a useless waste of meat on which to base what many people see as the definitive work on the topic. That movie may have been good entertainment, but it was about as far from a documentary as the Matrix was from a treatise on gun safety.

 

[Don Galt]

Ah, I love how with computer technology, we are able to make 70s era stopwatches that measure time obsolete and find another couple of seconds!

Those computers sure are amazing!

Anyway, someone said shooting from the grassy knoll would be harder... but I think they probably haven't been to the site.

If you go to the end of the fence, close to the freeway, where the eyewitness on the origninal discovery channel investigation says he saw the shooter... you've got the motorcade coming mostly at you, and you don't have to swepp the barrel over nearly as much as you do if you're closer to where zapruder was standing.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Ah, I love how with computer technology, we are able to make 70s era stopwatches that measure time obsolete and find another couple of seconds!

Let's see. In 1979, the House Select Committee concluded there were four shots with a 95% certainty it was fired from the grassy knoll. This is based on a single dictabelt recording of Dallas police radio channels which supposedly recorded the 4th shot transmitted by the stuck microphone of motorcycle officer H. B. McClain. He was riding at the left rear of Johnson's limo.

On this recording, there are no sounds of crowd noise. The sounds of the motorcycle engine indicated it was at idle instead of running wide open toward Parkland Hospital, which was what McClain's motorcycle was actually doing. There are no sirens audible on the tape until two minutes after the last "shot" was fired.

The dictabelt did record the words, "Hold everything secure...." during the 6 seconds the shootings were supposed to be happening. This was part of an order transmitted over the radio one minute after the shooting by Sheriff Bill Decker. The complete line was, "Hold everything secure until the homicide and other investigators can get there."

Using all available video and photographic evidence of the shooting to fix everyone's position , a computer simulation of the motorcade proved that there is no way that at the time of the shooting, was McClain's motorcycle in a position to transmit the "4" shots.

It was later determined the open microphone was in fact on a motorcycle sitting at the Trade Mart, where JFK was to speak.

In 1982, a panel of 12 scientists from the National Academy of Sciences studied the recording and concluded the Select Committee's conclusion that it indicated a 4th shot was wrong. They stated there "was no acoustical basis" for a claim of a 4th shot.

So much for acoustic proof of a 4th shot.

 

[JohnKSa]

McClain himself testified repeatedly and steadfastly that his mike key was not stuck and that the recording did not come from his radio.

Furthermore, the analysis (stating that there were 4 shots) was based on McClain's motorcycle being in a very precise location at the time of the first shot. Using more modern reconstructive techniques based on available video evidence, it has been shown that McClain was about a block away from the required location. Even if it were his mike key that was stuck, the sound analysis would be meaningless. Not surprisingly, none of the scientists involved in the original analysis were willing to comment on this development.

 

[tiberius]

Anyway, someone said shooting from the grassy knoll would be harder... but I think they probably haven't been to the site.

Its the difference between skeet and trap, but with a rifle. The going away shot is much easier, especial for reacquistion and follow ups.

There was/is a coverup. Afterall sealed documents are by definition a cover up, but there is no real evidence that there was more than one shooter.

 

[Don Galt]

Prove it, tiberius.

 

[TheeBadOne]

On conspiracies

If you try to debunk a conspiracy, you become part of the conspiracy…

 

[tiberius]

Prove that going away shot is easier than a passing shot? Have you ever handelled a gun?

 

[Politically Incorrect]

Don,

Are you asking tiberius to prove that there is no real evidence that there was more than one shooter?

I'll prove it as soon as you can prove to me that Santa Claus does not exist and Iraq doesn't have WMDs.

Of course, these things cannot be proven. You cannot prove a negative, but it can be shown that such things are not likely. That's the best anyone can do.

 

[Don Galt]

TheeBadOne-- that was just a smear.

tiberius-- No, prove that there's no real evidence for more than one shooter.

PI- yes, its difficult to prove a negative, and yet, he made the statement, the burden is his.

 

[TheeBadOne]

TheeBadOne-- that was just a smear.

No smear at all sir, just an observation that myself and thousands of others have made over the years.

 

[tiberius]

Well Don Galt, you're not gonna get me to try and prove that there is no evidence. That would indeed be impossible. You won't even get me to say that there definitely was NOT another shooter, because that too would be ridiculous. But I have read, listened to and watched programs on the theories and visited the site myself (the museum is a good place to take out of town visitors) and I see no convincing evidence that there was more than one shooter.

You want to believe in government conspiracies so you see the evidence, its a simple as that. Who knows, you may even be right, but if you are its up to you to prove it, not me. You really shouldn't get so upset when someone disagrees with you, its really not that big of a deal.

 

[Mr Jody Hudson]

The tinfoil hat picture is the high point of this thread! Thanks!

 

[pax]

Duplicate topic.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50678

pax