Looters in New Orleans

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From an AP story. Can't provide a direct link, because it is on a flash page

"Police officers were asking residents to give up any guns they had before they boarded buses and trucks because police desperately needed the firepower: Some officers who had been stranded on the roof of a motel said they were being shot at overnight."
 
There is a large community of low-income people in the hurricane destruction area. These people are living week to week financially. They don’t have enough savings in many circumstances to stock up on everything they might need. They may not have a vehicle to leave and no place to go. Their only option was to stay put. For them, if the hurricane were not as bad as it was, they would be in desperate measures trying to leave.

I was watching the footage last night and noticed something interesting. Almost every house roof that they showed (even on some very run-down shacks) seemed to have a satelite antenna on the roof. I really do feel bad for the folks in this situation and wish them no ill but I grew up terribly poor myself (no electricity, running water, sewage, barely enough food sometimes, etc.) and the one thing we were always reminded of was priorities. I find it hard to believe that most of these folks could not have afforded to scrounge a couple of cans of tuna or spam a month in lieu of satelite TV service and probably a number of other items that us modern types consider to be the necessities in life. Overall, very, very sad times.

I would vote for shooting the over-the-top looters (those stealing appliances, jewelery, etc.) and arresting, citing, detaining, exporting, warning, even threatening (as the case may allow) those stealing the necessities of life. I'm just thankful it's not me having to make this decision today and pray that I never will.
 
Help the Hospital

Tuesday, August 30, 2005

Children's Hospital under seige
Tuesday, 11:45 p.m.

Late Tuesday, Gov. Blanco spokeswoman Denise Bottcher described a disturbing scene unfolding in uptown New Orleans, where looters were trying to break into Children's Hospital.

Bottcher said the director of the hospital fears for the safety of the staff and the 100 kids inside the hospital. The director said the hospital is locked, but that the looters were trying to break in and had gathered outside the facility.

The director has sought help from the police, but, due to rising flood waters, police have not been able to respond.

Bottcher said Blanco has been told of the situation and has informed the National Guard. However, Bottcher said, the National Guard has also been unable to respond.


In Michigan, We civilians could not help the hospital they are No Gun Zones
We could only watch....
 
I don't have much sympathy for mega-stores that are getting looted. If a business owner wants to protect his business, he'd better be down there with a rifle. It's not the duty of the state to protect your property from desperate people.

Well said.....
 
Big problem is if you arrest them where do you put them?

No real answer to that but they are supposed to be evacuating everyone anyway so one would figure that they would have a plan in place for this since the politicians announced it right? Anyone? Anyone? Right?
 
Lifeboat ethics.

Read up.

Trust me, those of you who know what I'm talking about, it applies very much so to this discussion about shooting looters.
 
Seems to me that some of you guys are on the wrong site, and should go to "The Low Road". It is amazing to see the absoluters that have no real idea of what circumstances are, to sit and ignore the simple fact that whatever the reasons, these folks don't deserve to die by thirst or starvation. Also to think that there are absolutely no legitimate reasons for these people to be trapped is not very bright. Some seem to have a slightly abnormal desire to see people shot for trying to survive, even if they were stupid. Not criminal, but maybe stupid. Whatever, to advocate that they simply sit by and die because of their circumstance is not what any civilized person would advocate.
+1

There is no shortage of self righteous ideologues.
 
the emotion of it all

I've read all the posts in this thread so far, and even if I don't agree on some intellectual & ethical level with some, I can sort of feel where many are coming from on an emotional level, some of them even rooted in some past or repressed worldview of my own. Not to get touchy/feely (on a gun forum? are you kidding?), but it seems to me there's more pain and anger being expressed in this forum than compassion. That's not a judgement as good or bad, just an observation.

It seems parallel in some ways to some of the pain that must be being felt - and released - in New Orleans and other parts of Gulf Coast US right now.

I read this story earlier today:
'Thousands dead' in New Orleans.

Hurricane Katrina is thought to have killed hundreds, probably thousands of people in New Orleans, the city's mayor, Ray Nagin, has said.

Mr Nagin said there were significant numbers of corpses in the waters of the flood-stricken city, while many more people may be dead in their homes.

There would be a total evacuation of the city, he said, warning it could be months before residents could return.
I dunno, after reading it, finally, i felt an emotional impact. Up until then, it was just intellectual. Images, analysis of the devastation, a few human stories. But reading about thousands dead, with corpses in the rising waters, well, the human tragedy finally sunk in.

Yesterday, in another post, i expressed the foolish nature of looting for non-survival needs, like tv's & jewelry.

(I also expressed disapproval of even buying tv's and jewelry by any of us when there are more important things to spend money on, but i said it in a stupid, derogatory way. Apologies; it was the punk in me speaking during the emotion of reading this thread and some of the things that were being written - hey, cut me some slack, I'm a drummer, and everybody knows we're wacko. If you're into jewelry & tvs, more power to you as long as you don't loot it.)

However, I'm probably standing closest to Gunpacker's view:

Seems to me that some of you guys are on the wrong site, and should go to "The Low Road". It is amazing to see the absoluters that have no real idea of what circumstances are, to sit and ignore the simple fact that whatever the reasons, these folks don't deserve to die by thirst or starvation. Also to think that there are absolutely no legitimate reasons for these people to be trapped is not very bright. Some seem to have a slightly abnormal desire to see people shot for trying to survive, even if they were stupid. Not criminal, but maybe stupid. Whatever, to advocate that they simply sit by and die because of their circumstance is not what any civilized person would advocate. There may be a number of scum as there always are, but many are simply unfortunate. Including a large number of children. Even if I got my children into an unfortunate circumstance because of my own stupidity, I would still do whatever is necessary and in my power to help them survive.
Yeah. I find that humans - and i'm one of those - don't always think clearly about things at first. We tend to draw some pretty fast conclusions about far away events, seeking simple interpretations without thinking through the complexities.

It's understandable - we all do it at times cause we want easy answers, and want to feel like we're in control of reality somehow, or at least our little sliver of it. But it's just not always simple unless you're right there in the thick of it, experiencing it. Something tells me, I can't even begin to imagine what those people - looters or not - are going through right now.

I'm thinking about all those poor folks still there tonight (with considerably less sympathy for the looters taking non-survival related items), and those that have to continue to endure that hell for ... how many more weeks?

I'm really glad to have a roof, a dry bed, some food, and enough water to both drink and bathe in.

N~
 
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a few comments here.

I've got mixed feelings on the concept of 'its their own fault, they had plenty of warning to get out!' While it is true that due to free transportation, poverty is NOT an excuse to still be there. HOWEVER....

I personally view a lot of stuff i see on the news media as being way over hyped. Like thunderstorm warnings. I say 'big freaking deal' When i was living on the farm we still had to get the cows fed. Obviously you don't go out in a golfcourse during a thunderstorm, but then I use my eyes not the big blob of dopplar radar. Yet the guy on the news is crying about this thunderstorm like it is the scorge of vengance comming. I also dismiss the cry about red meat being death to eat, that my firearms in my home are more likely to kill my family than an intruder, etc etc. I also believe that frequently government decisions are based not on most likely scenario, but 'what if worst case scenario happens! will i get in trouble for not doing X then?' This is akin to the warning on hammers to wear safty goggles while hitting nails.

Hence I can see some people comming to the conclusion that the news media is overhyping the storm, and that once again the decision to do sometthing (this time call for a general evacuation) is so the mayor or whoever cannot be called to blame IF things get bad.

add to this general knowledge that:
-some will stay and loot no matter what
-government's inefficiency may make the 'rescue location' worse than the home you are in.

I cannot immediately say to all who are swimming around in NO "you got what you deserved!" However, i will agree that probably most people did not reach a reasonable conclusion to stay, but were just lazy and stupid and possibly greedy.

Second, I believe it is everyone's right, recognized in the US constitution, to do really dumb ????. The only caveat is that it is unfortunate that we as a society put so much effort into pulling their butts out of the fire, even at risk of the rescuer.

Now, Looters.

Regarding the police. If i was trapped on a roof or something, i would be pissed to find out many police were being sent to secure merchandise from looters. I'd place their first priority and all manpower to getting to people in danger, protecting property would be far down on the list.

However, these police who are NOT shooting looters are not out saving people either. They are simply standing around, when they are not looting themselves. That is wrong, and deserves termination. Looting themselves deserves jailtime.

General looters.

It is my understanding that there is a concept in american law that it is legal to do what you must do to survive. This means that two guys fall off a boat, one has a lifejacket the other does not. The man without the lifejacket will not be tried for murder if he takes the jacket by force and dooms the other man to a watery grave. Survival of the fittest, you got to do what you got to do.

Hence i recongnize the legality of truely starving people to help themselves to food and water, and i also personally recognize a moral right of starving people to sieze food and water, even if the law did not.

However, taking TVs and beer is NOT being done for survival of the looters, it is for immediate pleasure and finantial gain down the road. This is stealing. I don't care if that TV would end up being wrecked in the flood. None of us can see the future. For all you know the store owner is right now attempting to weave his way in a boat to his store to salvage goods.

Normally, i say it is only right to use lethal force to protect your loved ones and fellow human beings in immediate danger. It is not acceptable to shoot a guy for stealing the TV from your house. (although i would confront the bastard when armed and demand he drop it...but only shoot if he attempted to fight, not if he was fleeing). However, in situations like this one must take a more long term look at what is going on. While it is true that the jewelry from your store won't get you through the next week, that jewelry from your store is important in keeping your family clothed and fed in the next year or so. Hence defending ones livelyhood IS, i think in these situations, reason enough to use deadly force. Take cattle russlers for example. The locals didn't feel justified in hanging cattle russlers because the family needed to eat that steer now, they hung cattle russlers because they knew that a farm family that lost some cattle may well run out of food this winter, or out of funds next spring for seed and materials to farm the next year, bank takes home, and now they are in a dire predicament. That is a very personal decision to be made by each store owner. While you would be hard pressed to convice me that the TV in your living room is vital to you being able to continue to support your family, defending your business is an entirely different matter.

I've got the same feeling about cars. I'm not a rich man, but i have a little bit of savings. However, i know a lot of people living from paycheck to paycheck. You take their means of transport, they can no longer go to work. No work = no rent money. So, if one of those guys had to choose between a guy in the process of stealing his car recieving some lead vs the very real possibility of his family becoming homeless, well then, the theif gets it. Unfortunately, the reason a significant percentage of these people are living paycheck to paycheck is because they don't have the ability to see how their actions may play out in the long run, hence rather than setting even a small portion of the paycheck aside every week (even $50) instead blow it on lottery tickets, beer, fancy rims for the truck, a new gun, or whatever.
 
If I got in a situation so bad that I had to "loot" to survive, this is what I would do.

1. I would keep track of what I took to try to make things right later.
2. I would wear a conspicuous sign that said:

I am not a looter. If you see me take your property, write down the information on this sign and I will repay you in better times.

Full Name
Phone number

3. I would not take jewelry, fancy clothing, entertainment devices. I would take things to drink, things to eat, medicine/first aid, and other basic necessities.

4. I would not brag to reporters or cameramen that I was getting even for years of oppression (or make any other stupid arguments to rationalize what I was doing.)

My guess is that anyone who saw me taking their stuff would never even try to contact me. And I suspect that it might be hard for me to get people to take payment after the fact.

People don't object to the loss nearly so much as the violation.
 
Ah, the Great Society...

Those of you that condone this behavior on any level should have your brains dusted. Too many cobwebs in that region.

This isn't about aquiring or approriating goods for survival. This is theft, pure and simple. I would bet that 99% of the looters have lived on the system all of their lives. Free ride since birth - housing, medical, food programs. And all of us have paid for that ride.

This catatrophe is the catalyst for these people to do what they see as one more entitlement. Most feel entitled to steal every day, albeit sub rosa. If you heard of this theft on an ordinary day would you still think it was acceptable to pilfer food, water and diapers from any retailer?

And this mindset is not just limited to the poor. I was just sickened to see the police women in a store speaking with a reporter while they were filling up a shopping cart. I hope most of you have seen that footage. If they aren't terminated by tomorrow AM we have a much bigger problem than just the mass destruction in NO.

If you really think this is acceptable I hope you are locked and loaded when they come to your door with the stolen arms and ammo to raid your fridge.

Brian B
 
I was just sickened to see the police women in a store speaking with a reporter while they were filling up a shopping cart.

Well, police women have to eat too. Actually, it looked like on the news that they were standing in the shoe section. Maybe there rubber boots wore out.

But let's say it was food they were taking. Did you see those women....they take a LOT of food maintenance to main that figure. :what:


It's good to see that this thread is still beating a dead horse issue.
 
Those of you that condone this behavior on any level should have your brains dusted. Too many cobwebs in that region.

This isn't about aquiring or approriating goods for survival. This is theft, pure and simple. I would bet that 99% of the looters have lived on the system all of their lives. Free ride since birth - housing, medical, food programs. And all of us have paid for that ride.

So glad to see you've already investigated the backgrounds and actions of everyone who took things in New Orleans.
 
JohnKSA if you are going to do all of that why not just go back to the basics -- I am sure you can take one of your guns and a knife and you can harvest plenty for dinner -- okay so you may not have the convienence of electric or a store but the woods were a major food store for many years and they can be anytime you need food. There is a reason I don't buy meat I harvest it during a season but if I was starving and had to feed a family I know where to find the deer or a rabbit.
 
This isn't about aquiring or approriating goods for survival. This is theft, pure and simple.
That's right, and it's only ok when government and corporations do it. Who do these people think they are anyway?
 
If devastation of this magnitude where to strike any other city in this country or the world for that matter the outcome would be the same. Sadly this is just an example of human nature at it worst and when mob mentality rules the day.

I am only 30 miles or so west of N.O. Some of the displaced are starting to gather in and near my small town. Some sections where I live are getting power restored, I am still on gen. power.
Hauling storm debis to local dump I saw lines at gas stations that were nearly 3/4 mile long. (don't know the going price as signs were down) Many waited in line only to have the stations go dry.
The effect of this storm will be far reaching indeed.

If it is in your heart and means to donate I suggest the Red Cross and Salvation Army. I will write check as soon as things on my end settle down.

D.Miculek
 
Article on looting and plenty of guns/self defense

I realize many of you think the NY Times is the work of Satan ( :rolleyes: ), so this is a warning so you can avoid reading the article. For others, plenty of examples (and photo) of folks armed to defend themselves, their homes, their property. Applause all around!

NY Times article on looting/self defense
 
Here's a quote from that Times article

The looters "are starting to get closer to heavily populated areas," Mayor C. Ray Nagin told The Associated Press, "hotels, hospitals, and we're going to stop it right now."

Just like I said, the animals are starting to move out. It should have been met with brutal force when it first started out. That would have stopped it before it became so wide spread.
:fire:
 
The Ant and the Grasshopper

In a field one summer's day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart's content. An Ant passed by, bearing along with great toil an ear of corn he was taking to the nest.
"Why not come and chat with me," said the Grasshopper, "instead of toiling and moiling in that way?"

"I am helping to lay up food for the winter," said the Ant, "and recommend you to do the same."
"Why bother about winter?" said the Grasshopper; we have got plenty of food at present." But the Ant went on its way and continued its toil.
hen the winter came the Grasshopper had no food and found itself dying of hunger, while it saw the ants distributing, every day, corn from the stores they had collected in the summer.
Then the Grasshopper knew:

It is best to prepare for the days of necessity.
 
hey, cut me some slack, I'm a drummer

Hey, in another thread you were a self-employed college professor teaching ecology, with no time to devote to silly things outside your profession:D

You sure change professions fast!
 
It is best to prepare for the days of necessity.

That's why I keep a 200 foot long helium filled derrigible hovering over my house with all my goods inside. That way, I'll still have food and ammo when the town gets flooded to the depth of 20 feet. :rolleyes:

You can prepare all day long and still get slapped.

I was down on the Gulf Coast Friday but we left. Many of our friends and family didn't becuase they couldn't afford the move...and because the government won't let homeowners back to protect their property even during a MINOR hurricane.

Some people just really honest to God didn't have the money to leave. They didn't do it so they could a handout from the Government after they survived.
 
So I'm watching the news

and three young gang member looking fellows walking through 2Ft of water are being asked by the reporter if they are looting. They are carrying new expensive Nike type shoes. They replied in english (somewhat) the police just hassled them and they said they were at risk walking through the water and that's why they stole the shoes. To prove their point they raised their feet from the water to show they were barefoot. Hmmmm, need shoes to protect your feet? Why don't you put them on then?
:rolleyes:
CT
 
tangent to main discussion: drumming bio & math

Earlier, I wrote: " hey, cut me some slack, I'm a drummer", to which TheEgg replied:

Hey, in another thread you were a self-employed college professor teaching ecology, with no time to devote to silly things outside your profession

You sure change professions fast!
;) Let me explain.

{this has nothing to do with looters, so just skip this post if you don't care}

I AM a self-employed college-level teacher (semantic point: "profs" are university employees in tenure track postions, which i'm not). I teach classes in biology (including ecology, but also cell biology), systems sciences & mathematics (especially nonlinear dynamics). Teaching is a passion for me, and how I earn most of my bread currently (which ain't much, btw...)

However, I'm also a drummer. After years of trap sets, conga, & bongos, I play an electronic hand drum that defies easy description ('sides, this is a gun forum).

The connection is, in addition to playing drum to satisfy my personal passion for percussion, I use the drum in my math and biology classes to illustrate certain concepts that i teach. (Explanation is a bit lengthy, so I'll avoid it here. If you're curious, PM me.)

It's worked out well. It helps punctuate my classes with a fun activity (biology and math can be dry, especially in evening classes, which most of mine are). Even when I was teaching classes in mainstream schools, occassionally I'd drag a drum (and sometimes an entire small PA system) into the classroom to illustrate the "sound" (artistically, speaking) of cell metabolism, or the structure of DNA. Students loved it, even if my teaching colleagues thought I was bonkers.

They were right, of course. I AM a drummer, and we're a pretty crazy bunch. I once heard a lead singer for a band (Aerosmith, I think) say, "Never let your daughter go out with the drummer." Good advice. :evil:
 
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