Law-Abiding Citizens Take Up Arms To Defend Against Looters

Status
Not open for further replies.

David

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
804
Location
USA
From the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/n...38400&en=424579c16a2ef81d&ei=5059&partner=AOL

September 1, 2005

Police and Owners Begin to Challenge Looters

By FELICITY BARRINGER and JERE LONGMAN

NEW ORLEANS, Aug. 31 - In a city shut down for business, the Rite Aid at Oak and South Carrollton was wide open on Wednesday. Someone had stolen a forklift, driven it four blocks, peeled up the security gate and smashed through the front door.

The young and the old walked in empty-handed and walked out with armfuls of candy, sunglasses, notebooks, soda and whatever else they could need or find. No one tried to stop them.

Across New Orleans, the rule of law, like the city's levees, could not hold out after Hurricane Katrina. The desperate and the opportunistic took advantage of an overwhelmed police force and helped themselves to anything that could be carried, wheeled or floated away, including food, water, shoes, television sets, sporting goods and firearms.

Many people with property brought out their own shotguns and sidearms. Many without brought out shopping carts. The two groups have moved warily in and out of each other's paths for the last three days, and the rising danger has kept even some rescue efforts from proceeding.

Because the New Orleans police were preoccupied with search and rescue missions, sheriff's deputies and state police from around Louisiana began to patrol the city, some holding rifles as they rolled through the streets in an armored vehicle.

But on Wednesday night, the mayor ordered about 1,500 city police officers, nearly the entire force, back to their traditional roles.

The looters "are starting to get closer to heavily populated areas," Mayor C. Ray Nagin told The Associated Press, "hotels, hospitals, and we're going to stop it right now."

Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said she was "furious" about the looting.

"What angers me the most is disasters tend to bring out the best in everybody, and that's what we expected to see," Ms. Blanco said at a news conference. "Instead, it brought out the worst."

All sizes and types of stores, from Wal-Mart to the Rite Aid to the St. Vincent de Paul thrift shop, turned into bazaars of free merchandise.

Some frightened homeowners took security into their own hands.

John Carolan was sitting on his porch in the thick, humid darkness just before midnight Tuesday when three or four young men, one with a knife and another with a machete, stopped in front of his fence and pointed to the generator humming in the front yard, he said.

One said, "We want that generator," he recalled.

"I fired a couple of rounds over their heads with a .357 Magnum," Mr. Carolan recounted Wednesday. "They scattered."

He smiled and added, "You've heard of law west of the Pecos. This is law west of Canal Street."

Though no one excused the stealing, many officials were careful not to depict every looter as a petty thief.

"Had New York been closed off on 9/11, who can say what they would have done?" said Cynthia Hedge-Morrell, vice president of the New Orleans City Council. "When there's no food, no water, no sanitation, who can say what you'd do? People were trying to protect their children. I don't condone lawlessness, but this doesn't represent the generous people of New Orleans."

One woman outside a Sav-a-Center on Tchoupitoulas Street was loading food, soda, water, bread, peanut butter and canned food into the trunk of a gray Oldsmobile.

"Yes, in a sense it's wrong, but survival is the name of the game," said the woman, who would not identify herself. "I've got six grandchildren. We didn't know this was going to happen. The water is off. We're trying to get supplies we need."

Jimmy Field, one of the state's five public service commissioners, said supply and repair trucks were being slowed down by people looking for food and water. Some would not go on without police escorts.

"Right now we're hoping for more federal assistance to get the level of civil disturbance down," Mr. Field said.

One police officer was shot Tuesday trying to stop looting, but he was expected to survive.

An emergency medical vehicle that was taking a Baton Rouge police officer who had been shot last month from a hospital back to his hometown was shot at on the way out of New Orleans on Tuesday.

East Baton Rouge Parish officials agreed to send 20 buses with special weapons and tactics officers to help evacuate New Orleanians, but only if a state trooper was also placed on each bus. The plan was scuttled.

"I told them I don't mind committing drivers and vehicles, but I wasn't going to put our people in harm's way," said Walter Monsour, the chief administrative officer of the parish.

Besides the strain of having to rescue survivors, the police are bereft of much of their equipment, buildings and essential communications. The Police Department was scheduled to receive new radios on Wednesday night to coordinate its activities, said Lt. Col. Mark S. Oxley, a spokesman for the state police.

Charles C. Foti Jr., the Louisiana attorney general, said a temporary detention center and courthouse would be established somewhere outside New Orleans. "We will be ready to accept you in our system, and teach you about rules and order," Mr. Foti warned looters.

On Tuesday, the state police sent in 200 troopers trained in riot control, said Lt. Lawrence J. McLeary, a spokesman for the state police.

He said that the "nervous energy" in New Orleans reminded him of the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. "I've never seen anything like that in Louisiana," Lieutenant McLeary said.

With no officers in sight, people carried empty bags, shopping carts and backpacks through the door of the Rite Aid on Wednesday and left with them full. The forklift was still in the doorway. As they came and went, the looters nodded companionably to one another.

Paul Cosma, 47, who owns a nearby auto shop, stood outside it along with a reporter and photographer he was taking around the neighborhood. He had pistols on both hips.

Suddenly, he stepped forward toward a trio of young men and grabbed a pair of rusty bolt cutters out of the hands of one of them. The young man pulled back, glaring.

Mr. Cosma, never claiming any official status, eventually jerked the bolt cutters away, saying, "You don't need these."

The young man and his friends left, continuing the glare. A few minutes later, they returned and mouthed quiet oaths at Mr. Cosma, and his friend Art DePodesta, an Army veteran, who was carrying a shotgun and a pistol.

Mr. Cosma stared back, saying nothing. Between the two sides, a steady trickle of looters came and went, barely giving any of them a look.

Felicity Barringer reported from New Orleans for this article, and Jere Longman from Baton Rouge, La. Susan Saulny contributed reporting from Baton Rouge, and Joseph B. Treaster from New Orleans.
******
:D :uhoh: :D

Note: Photo below is from NY Times article.
 

Attachments

  • ArmedOwners.jpg
    ArmedOwners.jpg
    12.6 KB · Views: 985
One woman outside a Sav-a-Center on Tchoupitoulas Street was loading food, soda, water, bread, peanut butter and canned food into the trunk of a gray Oldsmobile.

"Yes, in a sense it's wrong, but survival is the name of the game," said the woman, who would not identify herself. "I've got six grandchildren. We didn't know this was going to happen. The water is off. We're trying to get supplies we need."

I don't so much mind the looting for food. But how can you not expect what is happening to potentially happen when a hurricane hits?
 
BREAKING NEWS from NEW ORLEANS -- Evacuation of Superdome Halted Due To Shots Fired At A Military Helicopter:

http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=3793403&nav=EyAze106

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - The evacuation of the Superdome was suspended Thursday after shots were reported fired at a military helicopter and arson fires broke out outside the arena. No injuries were immediately reported.

The scene at the Superdome became increasingly chaotic, with thousands of people rushing from nearby hotels and other buildings, hoping to climb onto the buses taking evacuees from the arena, officials said. Paramedics became increasingly alarmed by the sight of people with guns.

Richard Zeuschlag, chief of the ambulance service that was handling the evacuation of sick and injured people from the Superdome, said it was suspending operations "until they gain control of the Superdome."

Shots were fired at a military helicopter over the Superdome before daybreak, he said.

He said the National Guard told him that it was sending 100 military police officers to restore order.

"That's not enough," said Zeuschlag, whose Acadian Ambulance is based in Lafayette. "We need a thousand."

Lt. Col. Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard said the military - which was handling the evacuation of the able-bodied from the Superdome - had suspended operations, too, because fires set outside the arena were preventing buses from getting close enough to pick up people.

Tens of thousands of people started rushing out of other buildings when they saw buses pulling up and hoped to get on, he said. But the immediate focus was on evacuating people from the Superdome, and the other refugees were left to mill around.

Zeuschlag said paramedics were calling him and crying for help because they were so scared of people with guns at the Superdome. He also said that during the night, when a medical evacuation helicopter tried to land at a hospital in the outlying town of Kenner, the pilot reported 100 people were on the landing pad, some with guns.

"He was frightened and would not land," Zeuschlag.

Earlier Thursday, the first busload of survivors had arrived at the Houston Astrodome, where air conditioning, cots, food and showers awaited them.

"We are going to do everything we can to make people comfortable," Red Cross spokeswoman Margaret O'Brien-Molina said. "Places have to be found for these people. Many of these people may never be able to rebuild."

Astrodome officials said they would accept only the 25,000 people stranded at the Superdome - a rule that was tested when a school bus arrived from New Orleans filled with families with children seeking shelter.

At first, Astrodome officials said the refugees couldn't come in, but then allowed them to enter for food and water. Another school bus also was allowed in.

The Astrodome is far from a hotel, but it was a step above the dank, sweltering Superdome, where the floodwaters were rising, the air conditioning was out, the ceiling leaked, trash piled up and toilets were broken.

Harris County Judge Robert Eckels said the 40-year-old Astrodome is "not suited well" for such a large crowd long-term, but officials are prepared to house the displaced as long as possible. New Orleans officials said residents may not be able to return for months.

The Astrodome's schedule has been cleared through December. The dome is used on occasion for corporate parties and hospitality events, but hasn't been used for professional sports in years.

In New Orleans, the refugees had lined up for the first buses, some inching along in wheelchairs, some carrying babies. Almost everyone carried a plastic bag or bundled bedspread holding the few possessions they had left. Many had no idea where they were heading.

"We tried to find out. We're pretty much adrift right now," said Cyril Ellisworth, 46. "We're pretty much adrift in life. They tell us to line up and go, and we just line up and go."

The Astrodome's new residents will be issued passes that will allow them to leave and return as they please, something that wasn't permitted in New Orleans. Organizers also plan to find ways to help the refugees contact relatives.
******
:eek: :scrutiny: :eek:
 
These kinds of people infuriate me. They deserve whatever kind of hardships are coming their way for staying there just to steal from other people.
 
We didn't know this was going to happen.
Translation: We didn't know that there wouldn't be government givaways of free food/water/lodging/electricity/sanitation, etc. The goverment teat has never run dry before. We thought we would be escalated in status as 'victims.'
 
We Have A Winner!

Translation: We didn't know that there wouldn't be government givaways of free food/water/lodging/electricity/sanitation, etc. The goverment teat has never run dry before. We thought we would be escalated in status as 'victims.'

Mr. Bowman, you are absolutely right. I'm tucked away up here in Ohio and knew about this hurricane a week before it made landfall in Florida, much less stewed in it's juices for a few days in the Gulf of Mexico before hitting La, Ms. and Al. Too many folks were looking for a free ride after the dust settled, so to speak, and wound up holding the short end of the stick or dead. Now they're pillaging their own city and killing their own neighbors and expect sympathy.
 
Yes, in a sense it's wrong, but survival is the name of the game," said the woman, who would not identify herself. "I've got six grandchildren. We didn't know this was going to happen.

You gentlemen beat me to this. I'm heartened that I'm not the only one who caught that. I have no sympathy for this woman. She is a 'victim' of her own stupidity.
 
"I told them I don't mind committing drivers and vehicles, but I wasn't going to put our people in harm's way," said Walter Monsour, the chief administrative officer of the parish.

Then what good are you and your men -- you are waste of taxpayers money if you won't help in a disaster situation unless it is 'safe'. :fire:

And:

re: the military helicopter which was fired at:
"He was frightened and would not land,"
He ought to be court-martialed. When he volunteered, who told him he would not have to ever land in a hot LZ?

I am getting sick of a lot of these people who are supposed to be 'helping'. :barf:
 
Outstanding!!

John Carolan was sitting on his porch in the thick, humid darkness just before midnight Tuesday when three or four young men, one with a knife and another with a machete, stopped in front of his fence and pointed to the generator humming in the front yard, he said.

One said, "We want that generator," he recalled.

"I fired a couple of rounds over their heads with a .357 Magnum," Mr. Carolan recounted Wednesday. "They scattered."

He smiled and added, "You've heard of law west of the Pecos. This is law west of Canal Street."

Damn straight!!
 
He ought to be court-martialed.
If he had no armed support, what good would it have done to land? They would have swarmed the helicopter, making it useless for medical evacuations.
 
He ought to be court-martialed. When he volunteered, who told him he would not have to ever land in a hot LZ?

What gives you the idea that a medical evacuation helicopter has to be military? It is SIGNIFICANTLY more likely that the helicopter was operated by either state or even private personel, and these are people who are NOT paid to get shot at.
 
General Lupin (in preventing people from leaving the Superdome): "I know people want to leave, but they can't leave."
By what Constitutional authority are american citizens prevented from leaving the premices of the Superdome surrounded by 3 feet of water?

Whatever the heck happened to habeas corpus, due process, illegal imprisonment etc.

miko
 
He ought to be court-martialed. When he volunteered, who told him he would not have to ever land in a hot LZ?
I'm sorry to offend but, that is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

This isn't about landing in a hot LZ in combat, when you are armed to the teeth, allowed to return fire in massive amounts and are supported by artillery, air power and naval gunfire. This is New Orleans in the USA and you are on a humanitarian mission.

I am getting sick of a lot of these people who are supposed to be 'helping'.
And what are YOU doing to help? Obviously you would be better at it than those who are doing the job now. You and I are in no position to judge these people, and the decisions they make. I can't imagine the hell that they are trying to work in. Add to that the obvious lack of central command and control, and it's amazing anything is getting done.
 
If he had no armed support, what good would it have done to land? They would have swarmed the helicopter, making it useless for medical evacuations.

There were lots of NG and PO on the ground at the landing site, so the above does not apply.

What gives you the idea that a medical evacuation helicopter has to be military? It is SIGNIFICANTLY more likely that the helicopter was operated by either state or even private personel, and these are people who are NOT paid to get shot at.

Of course it does not have to be military, however the video I have been watching of the Superdome scene has been showing mostly military helicopters, and the orignal article led me to strongly believe that he was military. If not, obviously he could not be court-matialed. If civilian, I have seen countless civilian med-evac pilots and crews risk their lives to evacuate people out of extremely hazardous situations. So maybe this guy needs to find a new career, that is 'safer'.

The entire federal state and local organization looks to me like they have pulled a complete fubar here. I am not happy one little bit with what I am seeing. I think that massive incompetence reared its head in the N.O. situation.

I hope that some real pros are now taking over and will do their best to salvage what can down there.
 
"The entire federal state and local organization looks to me like they have pulled a complete fubar here."

And are you there?????

Didn't think so.............. :rolleyes:
 
I'm sorry to offend but, that is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

Of course I am not offended -- this is a stupid internet discussion board, and nothing to get offended about.

This is a "humanitarian" mission, as you stated. Thus almost all people put out to the limit and take chances to help. I am criticizing two people here -- a government official, and what looks to me like a pilot that over-reacted in fear.

And oh yes, I have criticized some seemingly clueless politicals and functionaries.

As far as what I have done? I am old(er) and fat(er), so I can no longer be on the front lines. I have donated as much money and materials as I can afford (and then some!). Tell me what else I am supposed to do?
 
And are you there?????

Didn't think so..............

And so no one who is not standing up to their arse in water in front of the superdome is entitled to comment? -- sorry, that is a silly argument, even though it always comes up sometime.

So, I assume from your comment, you are completely satisfied with the response of the New Orleans Police, the Orleans Parish Police, etc., etc. You think this is an outstanding job??????

Didn't think so............... :rolleyes:

Besides, from you own argument, you will be unable to make any further comment, because you are not there either? Right?
 
What you might do, Egg, is understand that the press fouls it up about as much as they get it right. We are all upset about the people having to wait, and outraged about the shootings, but understand that this is not all that is happening. In fact, its not even close. If every person with a firearm started rampaging in the streets like the press is portraying, there would be a lot more bodies lying in the streets. Just remember, the press is not here for "fair and balanced"-they are here to keep you glued to the tube anyway they can.
 
See Delmar, I knew you didn't believe in that silly argument. ;)

OF COURSE YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!!! The press could be leading us all to very bad conclusions, me included. But it is all I got!

And, as I stated in another thread, I love New Orleans, and its' demise has me upset --- I am not in a good frame of mind to cut people much slack right now.
 
Actually, Egg, I am impressed with what has happened considering the circumstances they have to work with. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 23,000 people have been evacuated under very bad circumstances since just last night.

Understand this was done with no local fuel available-they have to bring it in, the roads don't look so hot from what I can see on the net as well as TV, and a lot of people-cops, EMT's and volunteers are putting forth a HUGE effort to help these people just as soon as it can be done.

That a helo aborted a landing because they were fired upon is understandable. If you know where to aim, its not all that hard to bring one down and can be done with many common calibers. Going into a hover at low altitiudes with power lines and poles to watch makes it hard as is. EMT's are at a premium. Suppose the helo pilot braved the landing and crashed the helo. Who dies because of his bravery? What good does it do? How would you put out the fire if one started??
 
Folks, to all of you muttering about how the authorities are failing to get things right, please consider the following.

1. A disaster situation such as this has never before happened in the history of the United States, much less the Gulf States. You're talking about a stretch of territory almost 150 miles long, and extending from the tip of the Mississippi exit to about 200 miles inland. Damage varies in those areas, but all electricity is out at a minimum; there's no gas for your car; many places have no water, sewage or other utilities; and a lot of places are either under water or completely destroyed. Do the math. You CANNOT possibly have enough people in this entire area to cover all the needs unless you put in at least half-a-dozen army divisions, and even they, with all their equipment, would be hard-pressed to cope with the hundreds of thousands of people who need immediate help - never mind the two-million-plus evacuees who got out of the worst-affected areas, but now need help in adjacent states, towns and counties.

2. The vast majority of those involved in looting and unrest are people who have been on welfare and/or social security for years, not months. They never were self-sufficient. If you go around shooting them indiscriminately, can you imagine the consequences in every other inner-city area in the United States? We'd be facing nation-wide unrest on a scale undreamt of in our past history. We've created a whole "underclass" of people who know no other life but dependency on government. That problem is now coming home to roost big-time in those places where government has ceased to exist. I don't know what the answer is, but you can't shoot them, and you can't control them by normal means. I'm heavily involved in the rescue and recovery efforts through a Church group, and none of us have answers - perhaps we never will.

3. Self-defence is entirely legitimate and appropriate, as is police action (up to and including the use of lethal force) against those attacking you, or engaged in actual criminal activity. However, seeing someone walking the streets (whether alone or in a group), while armed, is NOT, in and of itself, a criminal offence. Heck - it might be me! The "shoot on sight" mentality assumes that all such folks are criminals, without any evidence to either support or reject this theory. If we're going to adopt such an attitude, then why not get rid of the courts and the justice system altogether? Anarchy is the logical consequence.

4. Please don't judge those in authority too harshly. They're trying to cope with something that has never before occurred here, and no-one knows how to do it. We're all learning "on the fly", and many mistakes have been made, and will continue to be made. However, many things have gone right, and much good has been done. There isn't perfection in this operation, and I don't expect that there ever will be. We're doing our best, and that's all we can do.

Now, if you have something helpful and constructive to contribute, please let us know about it. If you only want to carp and whine, please shut up and let those of us who are trying to cope, go on doing so.
 
this statement applies to our nation and BUSH especially

"knew about this hurricane a week before it made landfall in Florida, much less stewed in it's juices for a few days in the Gulf of Mexico before hitting La, Ms. and Al."

So why weren't price caps or oil reserves freed up in preparation why was this reactionary instead? Also CNN and other sources have been saying for awhile that if this area is hit it will effect our oil supplies. Fema was saying for years about the pump capability vs flooding possible here for awhile. I really really really wanna know what our government was thinking. (note: I am not your typical Bush basher- I voted for him twice because I thought he would do a great job not because he was the lesser of two evils.. Boy was I wrong in thinking he could handle ANYTHING resembling domestic policy) :fire:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top