Ok....Why Do People Carry Without One In the Chamber..?
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Gouranga
Member
First of all, someone running full speed at you with a knife, good chance he will still reach you and stab you after you drew and shot your chambered round.
Second, while you all have so much faith in safety mechanisms. THEY DO and CAN fail. Once while carrying an unloaded, freshly cleaned weapon (no ammo chambered, none in the clip) from my cleaning desk to the safe, had a child (who 9 times out of 10 knew better but kids are kids), bolt around a corner with a die cast toy and run flat out into me. The toy struck the weapon on the left side of the action. The impact managed to hit the safety in a way that it disengaged, despite no impact on the trigger (it was guarded by my entire hand) the firing pin went off. This was a weapon in good order, actually has a gunsmith look at it afterwards cause it freaked me out. I have never before or since seen a gun behave in that manner. That would have come of small comfort going to this kids grave. Had this weapon been loaded and chambered it would have discharged. From the impact of the kid, may or may not have hit anyone.
When I am in highly congested areas, or areas with lots of kids, I find their safety is more important than losing 1-2 seconds (at most) in pulling the slide back. When I am in the wilderness, in my vehicle, in a neighborhood or a scenario where my threat level goes up, then yeah, it is chambered.
There are at least as many variables in life and situations as there are stars in the sky. If you think the act of having a round in the chamber gives you a full sense of security then you have the false sense of security. I have had the opportunity to go through many secure (and we are talking VERY secure) facilities. There is never a single line of defense. Personal defense is the same. There is situational awareness, person defense moves, knives, keys, and other tools.
IF you care to charge me with a knife, pulling my gun would not be my first line. My first line would be using your own inertia against you. Putting that much effort into the charge, I guarantee you, you will miss me, and get hurt in the process. You will not get right back up and before you do, you will hear the slide, and I will have my gun on you fully chambered.
Am I prepared for everything? Anyone who says yes to that is kidding themselves. Could there arise a situation where I would not have the hand to pull the slide back? Absolutely. I do find it interesting, in the thread with 90+ real life scenarios where folks used their weapons in some fashion, not one of those would be an area where why weapon would be unchambered. Not one of those would have actually been hurt or helped chambered or not.
So please, while i respect everyone's right to carry as they see fit, try to respect others as well. This is about personal choice, and while I commend those who share their opinions on why they would always be chambered and situations that they would ask you to consider, I would equally condemn those who insist those who would be ever be unchambered, have no idea how to use their weapons, or are less manly, or any nonsense.
That being said...game on guys.
Second, while you all have so much faith in safety mechanisms. THEY DO and CAN fail. Once while carrying an unloaded, freshly cleaned weapon (no ammo chambered, none in the clip) from my cleaning desk to the safe, had a child (who 9 times out of 10 knew better but kids are kids), bolt around a corner with a die cast toy and run flat out into me. The toy struck the weapon on the left side of the action. The impact managed to hit the safety in a way that it disengaged, despite no impact on the trigger (it was guarded by my entire hand) the firing pin went off. This was a weapon in good order, actually has a gunsmith look at it afterwards cause it freaked me out. I have never before or since seen a gun behave in that manner. That would have come of small comfort going to this kids grave. Had this weapon been loaded and chambered it would have discharged. From the impact of the kid, may or may not have hit anyone.
When I am in highly congested areas, or areas with lots of kids, I find their safety is more important than losing 1-2 seconds (at most) in pulling the slide back. When I am in the wilderness, in my vehicle, in a neighborhood or a scenario where my threat level goes up, then yeah, it is chambered.
There are at least as many variables in life and situations as there are stars in the sky. If you think the act of having a round in the chamber gives you a full sense of security then you have the false sense of security. I have had the opportunity to go through many secure (and we are talking VERY secure) facilities. There is never a single line of defense. Personal defense is the same. There is situational awareness, person defense moves, knives, keys, and other tools.
IF you care to charge me with a knife, pulling my gun would not be my first line. My first line would be using your own inertia against you. Putting that much effort into the charge, I guarantee you, you will miss me, and get hurt in the process. You will not get right back up and before you do, you will hear the slide, and I will have my gun on you fully chambered.
Am I prepared for everything? Anyone who says yes to that is kidding themselves. Could there arise a situation where I would not have the hand to pull the slide back? Absolutely. I do find it interesting, in the thread with 90+ real life scenarios where folks used their weapons in some fashion, not one of those would be an area where why weapon would be unchambered. Not one of those would have actually been hurt or helped chambered or not.
So please, while i respect everyone's right to carry as they see fit, try to respect others as well. This is about personal choice, and while I commend those who share their opinions on why they would always be chambered and situations that they would ask you to consider, I would equally condemn those who insist those who would be ever be unchambered, have no idea how to use their weapons, or are less manly, or any nonsense.
That being said...game on guys.
Boba Fett
Member
I'm not an authority on carrying unchambered or chambered. I simply apply common sense to the subject.
1) You cannot predict every scenario we will find ourselves in. Having a chambered firearm gives you more options than carrying unchambered.
2) Regardless of how fast you think you are and how many times you practice chambering your firearm, high stress will ruin all of that. Betting your life and your families on something you could have done before you left the house is foolish.
3) The Israeli Method (hijacked and called the Israeli Draw) is not a method that is meant for CCWers to walk around with. It was developed to deal with the particular circumstances the Israeli military has had to adapt to.
4) Carrying unchambered requires two hands. People love to ignore this part. I refer back to points 1 and 2.
5) I ask this every time one of these threads comes up, but no one who loves the carry unchambered method answers it: if you are in favor of carrying unchambered, how do you carry a revolver? Do you leave it empty and use a moon clip? Some people are very fast with moon clips after all. Do you leave a cylinder empty and thus only have 4 rounds instead of 5?
But as I said, this is just my common sense view of the subject. Which is why I welcome an authority on the subject: Massad Ayoob.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457294/?tag=content;col1
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html
Moving on to where he discusses the Israeli Method:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html
1) You cannot predict every scenario we will find ourselves in. Having a chambered firearm gives you more options than carrying unchambered.
2) Regardless of how fast you think you are and how many times you practice chambering your firearm, high stress will ruin all of that. Betting your life and your families on something you could have done before you left the house is foolish.
3) The Israeli Method (hijacked and called the Israeli Draw) is not a method that is meant for CCWers to walk around with. It was developed to deal with the particular circumstances the Israeli military has had to adapt to.
4) Carrying unchambered requires two hands. People love to ignore this part. I refer back to points 1 and 2.
5) I ask this every time one of these threads comes up, but no one who loves the carry unchambered method answers it: if you are in favor of carrying unchambered, how do you carry a revolver? Do you leave it empty and use a moon clip? Some people are very fast with moon clips after all. Do you leave a cylinder empty and thus only have 4 rounds instead of 5?
But as I said, this is just my common sense view of the subject. Which is why I welcome an authority on the subject: Massad Ayoob.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457294/?tag=content;col1
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html
Moving on to where he discusses the Israeli Method:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html
Evil One
Member
If it went off without the trigger being depressed... then I really dont see how it could be called "in good order".
Jim
RETG
Member
I'll agree, it is everyone's privelige to carry with one in the chamber or not. It won't make a bit of difference to me.
As for a gun going off like someone stated, something fishy there; that's all I will say.
As for someone dicing and slicing me before I can draw. Under most cases, I will know he is carrying a knife and thinking of doing me harm, at which point my hand is on the gun and the draw starts as he starts. Granted, he might be able to slice the left arm, but at least at that moment I do not need that arm or hand to shoot my handgun.
Even if it is a total surprise, I will still have that slight chance to fire, whereas with a wounded arm, I might not be able to rack and shoot. This of course is assuming a person will sacrifice their non-shooting arm to protect their vital parts.
So, I respect your right to carry anyway you want.
I do love Ayoob's quote:
"A man not confident enough in his ability to carry a chamber-loaded semiautomatic pistol is better served with a revolver. Operating the slide before firing is a complex psycho-motor skill of the kind that does not survive stress well, and it's normally a two-handed operation. The history of gunfighting shows us at least half the time, we will fire our handgun one-handed when attacked by surprise. The gun must be in a condition that allows one-handed operation."
Then again; most on this site have never had to pull their weapon and shoot it at another human being (or even a dang cougar), and that means most have never realized how fast everything happens, and how stressed you are at that moment (or few seconds) in time.
Want stress, have someone shoot at you, and you in turn have to pull a weapon, rack it and shoot. I would not be surprised if most end up racking and firing at the same time, and the round going off at a 45 degree angle from where you want it to go.
Now, why was this question even asked?
As for a gun going off like someone stated, something fishy there; that's all I will say.
As for someone dicing and slicing me before I can draw. Under most cases, I will know he is carrying a knife and thinking of doing me harm, at which point my hand is on the gun and the draw starts as he starts. Granted, he might be able to slice the left arm, but at least at that moment I do not need that arm or hand to shoot my handgun.
Even if it is a total surprise, I will still have that slight chance to fire, whereas with a wounded arm, I might not be able to rack and shoot. This of course is assuming a person will sacrifice their non-shooting arm to protect their vital parts.
So, I respect your right to carry anyway you want.
I do love Ayoob's quote:
"A man not confident enough in his ability to carry a chamber-loaded semiautomatic pistol is better served with a revolver. Operating the slide before firing is a complex psycho-motor skill of the kind that does not survive stress well, and it's normally a two-handed operation. The history of gunfighting shows us at least half the time, we will fire our handgun one-handed when attacked by surprise. The gun must be in a condition that allows one-handed operation."
Then again; most on this site have never had to pull their weapon and shoot it at another human being (or even a dang cougar), and that means most have never realized how fast everything happens, and how stressed you are at that moment (or few seconds) in time.
Want stress, have someone shoot at you, and you in turn have to pull a weapon, rack it and shoot. I would not be surprised if most end up racking and firing at the same time, and the round going off at a 45 degree angle from where you want it to go.
Now, why was this question even asked?
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I may be misreading this, but I see a bit of a false dichotomy developing between cocked-and-locked carry vs. chamber-empty carry.
There is a wide spectrum between those two extremes, e.g. carrying a drop-safe double-action pistol chamber-loaded with the safety on, carrying a drop-safe double-action pistol chamber-loaded with the safety off (or a DAO with no safety), etc. Some have mentioned Glocks and revolvers, but they are only a small part of that spectrum.
It seems to me that this argument was precisely why the double-action semiauto was invented in the first place. It allows you to carry an uncocked semiautomatic pistol in a manner that allows you to draw and employ it one-handed.
There is a wide spectrum between those two extremes, e.g. carrying a drop-safe double-action pistol chamber-loaded with the safety on, carrying a drop-safe double-action pistol chamber-loaded with the safety off (or a DAO with no safety), etc. Some have mentioned Glocks and revolvers, but they are only a small part of that spectrum.
It seems to me that this argument was precisely why the double-action semiauto was invented in the first place. It allows you to carry an uncocked semiautomatic pistol in a manner that allows you to draw and employ it one-handed.
Gouranga
Member
I had the gunsmith go through it and explained what happened. While he said it was extremely difficult for things to line up and it to be hit at just that precise angle and location, it was possible. I never in my life thought it was possible. If I did not see it myself I never would have believed it. Like seeing a UFO or something.
The biggest point is, guys, really I appreciate what you are saying on the time and agility it takes to pull the slide back on the rush while under extreme stress let alone just fire the gun accurately. It is a game of odds for me, in those situations where I am around a lot of children or heavy concentration of people, I would rather not take the risk. Incidentally, these are also extremely poor choices for places to engage in a gun fight considering the backstops are all innocent people or children for any shot you take. Yes i know the bad guys do not always give you the option to choosing the location. I would prefer in those situations to rely on my situational awareness to see a potential threat coming and prepare accordingly.
Now, when in the wilderness, my vehicle, my boat, especially at night, or in less populated areas or some of the more questionable areas in my city, you'd better believe I am chambered and ready to roll. I have a small biometric safe next to my bed to hold the gun (I know folks will say this is a bad idea), takes me 2 sec in pitch black when woken from a deep sleep (I HAVE tested this a few times), to open and grab the gun. In that case, the round is chambered.
Like I said, it is a personal choice based on balancing risk and everyone is of course entitled to their opinion. The only thing I would question is challenging someones ability to use their gun or making it a pride issue. I do not know about you but having a firearm is nothing about pride for me. It is about protecting myself and my loved ones. My choices are about risk presented to them.
Gouranga
Member
benEzra, my concealed carry is actually a S&W M&P 40. It is a striker fired weapon. Whatever they want to call it, it really is a SA not DA. When you chamber a round, that striker is cocked and ready to go.
You cannot uncock it and when unloaded, if you pull the trigger and hear that pin go. Pull the trigger again, and you get nothing. Vs a true DA, which would re-cock the pin and fire again without needing to pull the slide again.
You cannot uncock it and when unloaded, if you pull the trigger and hear that pin go. Pull the trigger again, and you get nothing. Vs a true DA, which would re-cock the pin and fire again without needing to pull the slide again.
Gungnir
Member
RETG said:
This is laughable how will you know, does he have a big sign over his head saying knife wielding homicidal maniac, if he does why not just see it at a half a mile away and take another street. You don't know, you suspect, unless you're mistakenly drawing on people and pushing your gun in their face on every occasion your spidey-sense goes off, then you also have one in the chamber and you're likely a bigger threat to others than they are to you.
RETG said:
If you have never been seriously stabbed then this is just hot air. When you're stabbed your brain does register extreme pain, and you can deal with that I presume, what about blood loss, and shock it can deal with that as well, I expect in your mind it can.
I'm not saying that carrying in the chamber may not help, but you're promoting a straw man argument for why you SHOULD carry in the chamber by using the Tueller Drill. Unfortunately if someone knifes you a few times while you're trying to draw you might as well be packing a daffodil because the fights already over you likely just haven't realized it yet.
An expert knife user will fold the blade back behind the wrist and forearm. You won't see it until the slash is underway and reaction time means you'll probably take a cut. I wouldn't count on spotting the knife in this scenario. But in a mugging or similar, the assailant will brandish the weapon, hoping to scare you. Situational awareness is your best defense and hopefully you'll have spotted the threat before it's upon you.
If you can pull your weapon and point it at the assailant, he'll probably run, having brought a knife to a gunfight and chambered or not probably won't be an issue. Given the various possibilities, it does have to be noted that the act of drawing and racking the slide is a very powerful and intimidating move. If you aren't facing a gun pointed at you, it may be sufficient to resolve the problem.
Evil One
Member
One thing... no idea if it matters to those who prefer the "Israeli draw" method.
In my experience, you are much more likely to get a fail to feed... you know, need to give it that little bump or shove to go into battery... than when it is chambering a round after being fired, I have seen this MANY times with many different kinds of firearms.
In an "I NEED IT NOW" situation... that wouldnt be a good thing.
Jim
In my experience, you are much more likely to get a fail to feed... you know, need to give it that little bump or shove to go into battery... than when it is chambering a round after being fired, I have seen this MANY times with many different kinds of firearms.
In an "I NEED IT NOW" situation... that wouldnt be a good thing.
Jim
LiveLife
Member
What???
If you are armed and get surprised by an unexpected bad guy, you GOTO PLAN B and neutralize threat before bad guy does bad things to you and your family/friends.You really should practice disarming techniques so your encounter results to your advantage (buy a toy gun and practice with your shooting friends - it may save your life).
Tactics against pistol/rifle pointed to body/head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeYeYK0iwfM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOXE6o35ftc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2a0EvoAFog&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04X1L2jYspM&feature=related
LiveLife
Member
I was told not to bring a knife to a gun fight ...
But you should have a back up knife just in case.
But you should have a back up knife just in case.
LiveLife
Member
Amen - Any questions? Next!
w_houle
Member
1) This is true, but carrying unchambered has some advantages as well.
2) You do not rise to the occasion, but sink to your most common performance... and there's been more than a few incidents recently where the CCW would've been better served with an empty chamber.
4) Not with a Hi-Point
5) Revolver and semiauto are different, although I would say that it's would it's wise to carry an SAA without one under the hammer.
Boba Fett
Member
1) Certainly...and Mr. Ayoob points out one in his article. But this doesn't apply to the majority of firearms or CCWers.
2) There will always be instances where things could have gone better. We can debate those all day and probably learn some good things. But the circumstances of a few incidents doesn't change good practices. Some people die in cars because they were wearing their seatbelts, but that doesn't mean you should practice the "Israeli seatbelt" maneuver (that would be the practice of not wearing a seatbelt until just before you know you will be in an accident. You've practiced it and have it down to 1 second. This allows you to not have your seatbelt on just in case a circumstance would arise where you would be trapped and burned to death).
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not when you say "...sink to your most common performance." As Mr. Ayoob points out, certain actions, namely chambering a round, do not survive stress well.
4) I have no idea. Never been a fan of Hi-Point.
5) I agree, they are different. But how are they so different when it comes to a chambered firearm in a CCW situation? And I agree that if the SAA (again, not familiar with it) is not drop safe then it might be wise to keep a cartridge from behind the hammer. Mr. Ayoob has answered that one as well. But again, now we are getting into discussing specific weapons or circumstances and not what the majority of instances will be. I think a discussion of the safety of a particular weapon is great, but it shouldn't be the basis for why something like carrying unchambered is always the right way to go.
Try that with a practice gun and marker knife. It will only take one session to show how badly unrealistic this proposed tactic is and how "training dead" it will make you. Of course, it's much better to have to scrub marker off of you after training than it is to find out how your fantasy about defending yourself against an attacker with a knife puts you in the morgue with the coroner hosing the blood off your corpse.
The one thing that all of us need to take away is that training and practice needs to be as realistic as possible.
Quote Ben86 And while you are pistol whip'n they'd be stabbing. I don't see that going well.
Pistol whip over the head would knock anyone to the ground. Thats a lot more efficient than shooting. You can blow someone's heart out of their back and they'd still be able to stab you. Knock em to the ground.
Pistol whip over the head would knock anyone to the ground. Thats a lot more efficient than shooting. You can blow someone's heart out of their back and they'd still be able to stab you. Knock em to the ground.
Evil One
Member
I have been training ALL wrong...
I need a longer barrel on my carry gun... for better pistol whipping
Jim
I need a longer barrel on my carry gun... for better pistol whipping
Jim
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