Overkill???

[Bigg Jimm]

Is the 158 grain Gold Dot too much for self defense in .357 Magnum? In my Taurus 617 I usually carry the first 4 rounds 125 gr. Golden Saber and the last 3 Gold Dots. From my shooting experience the GD recoils a lot harder but is a little more accurate. Either way are the acceptable for SD or are they geared more toward hunting? Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

 

[ColtPythonElite]

They are fine for SD. However, I don't see the logic of mixing ammo.

 

[Bigg Jimm]

since the GD are more accurate for me I have them last. I figure if I wind up needing more that 3 or 4 shots the added accuracy might be helpful. I fully believe and try to make the first shot count but sometimes old Murphy has a say in the matter. Just my way of thinking.


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

 

[Teachu2]

I'd put the most accurate first - if your target is moving away, it's harder to claim SD. My longest shot should be my first. If I'm still firing after #3, recoil is important - until I run dry.

 

[horsemen61]

overkill

The gold dots sound like a good choice id load all of them that way.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

since the GD are more accurate for me I have them last. I figure if I wind up needing more that 3 or 4 shots the added accuracy might be helpful. I fully believe and try to make the first shot count but sometimes old Murphy has a say in the matter. Just my way of thinking.

Why in the world would you want to shoot ammo in your revolver you know is less accurate than the GD ammo? If you shoot the more accurate ammo first you probably won't have to shoot the 4th or 5th round.

No, Gold Dot bullets are not designed for hunting. They are designed as a SD bullet and IMO they are good SD bullets. I carry Speer 135gr .38 Special +P ammo in my revolver and that round is very accurate for me.

It's my very strong opinion it's not a good idea to carry more than 1 brand/weight of ammo in your handgun. The difference in recoil and POI is just begging for a missed target. The best bullet in the world will do you no good unless you make good hits. Most, if not all commercial SD ammo will do what it was designed to do so you should be carrying the ammo which is most accurate in your handgun. (again, IMO of course)

 

[Doc3402]

I'm sorry. I have a stupid question. When your life is on the line, how do you define overkill? This is self-defense ammo, right?

Start with the best you have, finish with the best you have, and make sure everything in between is the best you have. If you are using your self-defense ammo for the intended purpose, nothing else will do.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'll probably ruffle a few feathers, but what the hey.

In a revolver that weighs less than 40 ounces, all full-power .357 loadings are overkill...and mostly on the back end. The possible exception is the 110-grain loadings, and those typically generate less velocity than the 125-grain Hammers of Thor.

Conventionally accepted wisdom states that hitting an attacker twice doubles the odds of putting him down. i.e. rapid multiple hits are better than one hit, regardless of power level.

Back when Marshal and Sanow first published their book, Jeff Cooper was questioned about their findings that .45 hardball only rated 65% in one-shot effectiveness. In typical Cooper fashion, he shrugged and responded. "Shoot twice."

Being possessed of large, strong hands and a pretty hefty grip, I have trouble enough controlling a 3-inch Model 13 with full power .357 ammunition with any bullet weight well enough to make good, rapid followup hits at much more than about 15 feet. I haven't even attempted it with any of the new "superlite" class of .357 revolvers because it would probably be a waste of time and ammunition.

And I know that everybody envisions the proverbial rock-solid grip and this or that ideal stance in that awful, suspended moment of truth...but the reality is that these things have a way of going to hell in a handbasket in the blink of an eye.

My 2% of a buck.

 

[loose noose]

I agree with 1911Tuner whole heartedly. Being a retired police officer, and being involved in several shootings; I can't say I can remember the firearm's recoil at all, and the shots report seemed like it was far away. However, the recoil I'm sure was sufficient in my case, to have thrown the rounds off target, had the perp, been much further than 25 feet. Further, the stance I had to take was less than perfect, as compared to the "range qualifying" conditions. In a .38 I believe a 110 grain hollow point is sufficient for sd, as well as the lightest load (grain wise in projectile) from 9mm-.45acp. Again this is just my humble opinion.

 

[Old Fuff]

I also agree with Tuner, and favor the 158-grain bullet in a .38 Special loading for self-defense in small, lightweight revolvers becaue most fixed-sight models are "regulated" to shoot to the point-of-aim with this weight. I strongly suspect that if I have to use one (or more) shots the person on the other end isn't going to be a bit concerned about the particular ballistics of what hits him.

Emergency room surgeons have commented that they cannot tell beyond a large caliber vs. a small one what made the wound channel until, or if, they recover the bullet or observe it in an x-ray. The critical factor in stopping a determined attacker is bullet placement (hitting and disabling a vital organ or causing massive hemorrhaging) rather then any particular bullet, weight or design.

 

[smalls]

If you're more accurate with Gold Dots, wouldn't it make sense to just load all chambers with Gold Dots? You're not going to feel the minimal difference in recoil between the two in a shooting.

Either way are the acceptable for SD or are they geared more toward hunting

On the box, you'll probably see it says something to the effect of "premium defense ammo".

 

[Godsgunman]

As stated already, I'm one that believes there is no such thing as "overkill" in a true SD situation when it comes to the difference in the ammo choices you are talking specifically about. The key for me is to use the most powerful and accurate ammo you can shoot well with fast follow up shots. Also you want the best first not last and you want consistency so its best to have all rounds the same so you know its going where you expect it to.

 

[David E]

Just how much more accurate are the Gold Dots? At what distance? If at 20 yds the Gold Dots are 1" better, it's silly to base anything on that.

But Bigg Jimm revealed something in the first post that makes me think he's firing his DA revolver single action slowfire. This is not the way to practice for defensive shooting.

The first thing a SD gun must be is RELIABLE. The second thing it must be is CONTROLLABLE. The old "At 5 yds fire 5 rds on a 5" plate in 5 seconds" standard is overly generous time-wise, but it's a very basic minimum.

If the OP can achieve this standard firing all shots DOUBLE ACTION with Golden Sabres but just can't with Gold Dots, then he needs to load up Sabres all the way around. If he can do it with the Gold Dits, then load it up with those.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

158 gr overkill? I don't think so. I carry 125 gr. for people and 158 gr GD's in the woods. Both are accurate out of my SP101, both are controlable.

Turner is correct though. Any 357 could be considered overkill and a poor choice if follow up shots are too slow. As far as the actual impact energy is concerned, I don't think they are overkill at all. A good .45 will do a lot of the same work a 357 will do. But I like the power in a small package offered by the 3" bbl SP101. I'd not buy a smaller or lighter 357 though personally, and if I did, I'd be shooting the lightest bullets I could find for comfort and "ease" of follow up shots.

I really think 158's would be fine out of a 2" SP also, but I wouldn't want to shoot any 357 out of a poly or alloy gun. It just wouldn't be any fun.

 

[788Ham]

I have to agree with 460Kodiak in this respect. I also use the 3" Sp 101 for SD, have 135 gr. GD's in it, in .38 spl for in the house use, 158's for away from the house use. The .357 flash and blast inside the house is my reasoning for the ammo change. My reloads come close to matching the GD's .357's for range work, to keep the skill needed for their usage, no, not overkill, advantage!

 

[627PCFan]

I think Speer no longer makes Gold Dots in 158 weight, only 125 and 135 short barrels. (assuming handloads, havent bought ammo yet) The 158s are now actually called Deep Curls.

 

[1911Tuner]

You're not going to feel the minimal difference in recoil between the two in a shooting.

It's not what you "feel" that makes recoil an issue. It's controlling it well enough to get it back on target and making the next shot quickly with a less than perfect grip...if you even have the time to get both hands locked onto the gun.

 

[buck460XVR]

I think Speer no longer makes Gold Dots in 158 weight, only 125 and 135 short barrels. (assuming handloads, havent bought ammo yet) The 158s are now actually called Deep Curls.

The 158 Deep Curls are the exactly same bullet as the bullet formerly known as the 158 Gold Dot. Same product number even. Speer changed the name of all their Gold Dot hunting bullets to Deep Curls to differentiate between their SD bullets and their bullets designed for hunting with more penetration.

 

[Drail]

I agree completely with Tuner. The current trend for some time now seems to be more people shooter lighter and lighter guns with the heaviest +P load that money can buy. OK, knock yourselves out. I'll stick with heavy and slow. It's always worked for me. Best cartridges I have found are the .41 Rem. and the .44 Spl. Both of which never caught on with the masses.

 

[MCgunner]

Snubby? The 158s will perform MUCH better than the 125s from a short barrel. I don't shoot ANYthing under 140 in my .357s, personally. They might over-penetrate, might be a problem in crowded situations. But, they'll work!

I carry a 140 JHP Speer JHP, very accurate and works much better than the 125s from my 3" barrel.

 

[MCgunner]

I agree completely with Tuner. The current trend for some time now seems to be more people shooter lighter and lighter guns with the heaviest +P load that money can buy. OK, knock yourselves out. I'll stick with heavy and slow. It's always worked for me. Best cartridges I have found are the .41 Rem. and the .44 Spl. Both of which never caught on with the masses.

Oh, really? Do tell, how many kills you got with 'em? Personally, I've killed a lot of game with the .357, but I've never shot a human. Hope to keep it that way, but I trust the .357 Magnum for that just knowing how it performs on hogs.

 

[Doc3402]

Trust me, it works well on humans, too. Very well, especially with the heavier bullets.

 

[gbran]

From my shooting experience the GD recoils a lot harder but is a little more accurate.

Is this really that big of a factor at typical self defence distances? Surely there can't be that much difference in accuracy.

 

[MCgunner]

Hey, the more accurate, the better in MY book! You can never tell what range is going to be your "self defense" range. Out in west Texas, hiking, you MIGHT come upon a guy with a rifle hauling drugs. You can't carry a rifle in a National Park, only the outlaws can do that. So, concealed in a fanny pack, I carried a very accurate 4" medium frame in a fanny pack loaded with very accurate heavy bullet ammo....just in case. If I have to deter a guy with a rifle, I want the BEST tool I can legally carry and in the national parks, it must be concealed with your CHL.

 

[jeepnik]

No such thing as "overkill". Something is either alive or dead, and you can't get deader than dead.

There are some words that just need to be removed from the language.