Overkill???

[muleskinner1]

Yes a few years back the county next to me had an off duty deputy shoot a guy who was kidnapping his ex-girl friend with a five shot, S&W Chief's Special with plus P rounds. He hit the bad guy all five times! All kill zone hits. But it did nothing to the bad guy and the bad guy shot the deputy SEVERAL times with his 9MM.

The deputy came close to dieing from his wounds! If you are depending on a five shot .38 special with ANY round you are sorely lacking in defensive fire power these days! But hey, maybe your good enough and can screw it in his ear. That should do the job!

 

[loose noose]

The main thing I noticed, that no one paid any attention to, was the liability involved using a heavy penetrative slow moving round. When I first became a Police Officer we went from a .357 to a .45 auto. We were using 230 grn rn ammo. It wasn't too long before a couple officers got involved in a shootout with a perp, note the officers fired 4 shots (two each). The suspect note, was hit all 4 times. Unfortunately, one of the rounds continued thru the suspect striking a toddler and killing him at least 50 yards away. You might also note, the parents of that child sued and received a huge settlement. Not only that, the other 3 rounds also completely penetrated the perp. Shortly thereafter we went to the CCI Lawman 185 grn HP. IMHO, I would go with the lightest projectile possible, as the lightest bullet would expend it's energy into the perp, hopefully not going thru him, for pd. Also who among you is able to afford a huge civil suit. In fact this is one of the things I preach about in my firearms defense classes.

 

[muleskinner1]

No body wants their rounds to over penetrate or miss the suspect causing ANYONE any kind of injury. It's a tragedy when it happens. And civil liability is a fact of life these days. Most departments have several law suits going at any given time. But,,,,,when I am involved in a shooting, trying to keep from getting killed or seriously injured, or the same for my partner or anyone for that fact, I want the rounds to do what they are supposed to do. If they over penetrate and kill someone, that's just a fact of life. Hell a .22CAL can go through someone and kill a by stander. No one wants that, but the suspect is the one that writes the play! If they weren't doing something that could possibly kill or injure you, or someone else, we would not be shooting them. :banghead:

On another note, I just got off of the phone with a friend of mine who is a deputy in a sparsely populated, rural county in mid state Utah. They just had a shooting where a suspect took a deputy to the ground after a foot pursuit and started to choke out the deputy. The deputy shot the suspect with his duty weapon. A Glock Mod 22 using 165 grain Hp rounds. Deputy one,,,,,suspect zero.

Hey the jobs a tough one. S*** happens. When ya gotta do what ya gotta do, YOU had better be able to do it! There is way too much worrying about civil liability and being "Politically correct" these days. One of these days it will cost some copper his life when he hesitates for that split second worrying about liability!!! (If it has not all ready happened!)

Law enforcement is a brutal profession. I don't want to sound insensitive or harsh, but if the public does not like the way it's done, let them do the job! Let's see how they like trying to subdue some suspect fresh out of the joint that has been pumping iron and is high on dope or alcohol!

And,,,, don't ever bet your money that the 185 grain .45ACP won't over penetrate a human body! It will. Especially when the hollow point cavity fills up with clothing or some other foreign substance. Fact,,,not fiction. The 9MM does it all the time!

 

[loose noose]

muleskinner1, I seriously doubt you know of what you speak. Most shootings take place within 7 yards (21 feet). The 185 grn .45 was just a thought of what our department went to allmost 40 years ago. It was the best we could go with at the time. However, since that time several ammo makers have come up with a light projectile that will not fill up with clothing material, and will expend it's energy in the perp. Hornady Critical Defense is one. Further as far as civil liablilty is concerned, it is of utmost importance especially in regards to a city's budget, let alone an individual's budget. Not only that a light projectile going at high velocity will do as much terminal damage as a slower heavier projectile making a small channel and exitting the body going wherever?! Now tell me you have enough money to settle a civil suit, when your heavy projectile completely penetrates a perp and hits an innocent bystander, when you could have used a much more adequate round. Oh, and yes I am an expert in this field.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The 125 grain JHP bullet has always been the best performing round for self defense in a .357MAG handgun..

It's funny and odd how many guys/agencies use the 147 grain standard pressure 9mm. A +P+ 124 will put the slap on a varmint about like the magnum.

 

[muleskinner1]

"It's funny and odd how many guys/agencies use the 147 grain standard pressure 9mm. A +P+ 124 will put the slap on a varmint about like the magnum"

One word. Cost. Second words. Liability and consistency.

Here is a current list of the approved rounds the department I retired from allows in semi autos. Yes some still carry a revolver but I won't take the time to list those rounds. Nor the rifle and shotgun rounds.

As a retiree, we are still bound by department policy to use approved weapons and rounds in any weapon we carry. (CCW) I dare say if you don't, and get into a shooting, the civil attorney will have a field day with you on the stand!

The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, LASD, The LARGEST sheriffs department in the world, still issues the Beretta 92FS blue steel and uses the 147 grain subsonic round. I hated the round, but they kill the hell out of a lot of suspects on a daily basis with it. So contrary to what a lot of the so called "Experts" profess, the round does work!!

9MM
Winchester:
147 grain subsonic JHP USA9JHP2

Federal:
147 grain JHP HST FED-P9HST2

.40CAL
Winchester:
180 grain JHP RA40180HP

Federal:
180 grain JHP FED-P40HST1

.45ACP
Winchester:
230 grain JHP USA45JHP

Federal:
230 grain JHP HST FED-P45HST2

Have a good day, practice like you fight, don't believe all the guru BS you hear out there and "Be safe!"

 

[muleskinner1]

Artical

Here's an ammo article by the guy who wears the worse looking wig I've ever seen. Seems like good info, but who knows,,,. Some of the stuff he says is good and some I wonder about!


http://www.tactical-life.com/online/exclusives/defense-loads-of-choice-the-word-from-the-street/

 

[Art Eatman]

You young sprouts need to calm down. Be objective. Be courteous. Be kind.

Or take it to PM.

Art

 

[golden]

Less recoil for me

I would go with a round that has less recoil for the quicker repeat shot and greater control. I used the 110 grain jhp .357 magnum load in preference to the 125 grain load because of the recoil.

It is more about how well you can control the rounds you fire and how fast. Can you hit two attackers in quick succession with the 158 grain round? Criminals often lack the courage or stupidity to attack one on one, especially where they might have someone who will fight back.

I agree with the logic of those who are pushing for the +P .38 Special on the grounds of it being enough with better control. I just disagree on the caliber. I have found the light recoiling 110 gr. jhp .357 to be as controllable as the 158 grain +P .38 Special.

You might want to go the range and do a timed comparison.

Jim

 

[muleskinner1]

Well I'm not going to post on or visit this forum anymore. I post a courteous, no foul language reply to Loose Noose, who I'm sure has less than my 30 years in as a cop with the two largest departments in California and my post gets deleted.

This forum sends me an automated message wanting to know why I have not visited in a long time and this is what I get. I will be sending the forum owner a message to delete my membership. Which I'm sure they won't do, as they want membership numbers whether the member still visits the forum or not. Stay safe and don't believe all the BS the self professed "Gun Gurus" tell you!

 

[loose noose]

36 years in and around law enforcement, an investigator for over 20 years, all in Southern California's elite departments including LASO. So sorry if I offended you muleskinner1, rest assured that was not my intention.

 

[mcappys]

Just some thought and input, my wife tried to carry a 9mm, but
it was too heavy and big, also fears a jam, so after searching she has a Ruger LCR 357,
Now carries all the time.
It's loaded with 38+p and she shoots regular 38's, and +p's for pratice.
Minium of 20 rounds a month.

If I ever get back to reloading she will have light loads in 357
125gr. hp bullets. Yep about the same as the 38+p, but then we will be shooting the same, no those are yours and these are mine--grab some and go.
Some of you are out doing yourselves with ammo and I'd rather be shot at by you at 50 yards than her, from what I read.
She can not stand the recoil of a 45lc or acp, hurts her wrist, damn near drops the tool. Why shoot something that kicks so hard you can't hit the target, one bad hit is better than a dozen misses isn't it?
Pratice and find what shoots/hits best for you. I don't think one box will tell what works best either.

 

[David E]

Now she carries all the time.
It's loaded with 38+p and she shoots regular 38's, and +p's for pratice.
Minium of 20 rounds a month.

That's great!

If I ever get back to reloading she will have light loads in 357
125gr. hp bullets. Yep about the same as the 38+p, but then we will be shooting the same, no "those are yours and these are mine"--grab some and go.

Seems like you'll still have "hers" and "yours," it'll just be more difficult to identify them as such. Hate for her to accidentally load one of yours when she's expecting less kick.

Why shoot something that kicks so hard you can't hit the target?

Very good question!

 

[mcappys]

Quote:
If I ever get back to reloading she will have light loads in 357
125gr. hp bullets. Yep about the same as the 38+p, but then we will be shooting the same, no "those are yours and these are mine"--grab some and go.

Seems like you'll still have "hers" and "yours," it'll just be more difficult to identify them as such. Hate for her to accidentally load one of yours when she's expecting less kick.
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We will be shooting the same loads, used to load mine that way, she wants to learn to reload, so am un packing reloading stuff and starting to get it ready to set up, been stored since moving years ago:banghead:

 

[David E]

Oh, ok. If you just take the one load, then no issues.

I encourage you to unpack your reloading gear sooner rather than later. It's fun to load your own, especially loads you can't buy and it's cheaper.