Pistol Choices II

[Pappy109]

Just look at their line up.....who can match this?

del number Cartridge Total length Barrel length Magazine Capacity [37] Weight
(unloaded) Style
(mm) (in) (mm) (in) Standard Optional (g) (oz)
17, 17C 9x19mm 186 7.32 114 4.49 17 10, 19, 33 625 22 Standard
17L 225 8.86 153 6.02 17 10, 19, 33 670 23.6
18, 18C 185 7.28 114 4.49 33 10, 17, 19 620 21.9
19, 19C 174 6.85 102 4.01 15 10, 17, 19, 33 595 21 Compact
20, 20C, 20SF 10mm Auto 193 7.60 117 4.61 15 10 785 27.7 Standard
21, 21C, 21SF .45 ACP 13 10 745 26.3
22, 22C .40 S&W 186 7.32 114 4.49 15 10, 17 650 22.9
23, 23C 174 6.85 102 4.01 13 10, 15, 17 600 21.2 Compact
24, 24C 225 8.86 153 6.02 15 10, 17 757 26.7 Competition
25 .380 ACP 174 6.85 102 4.01 15 17, 19 570 20.1 Compact
26 9x19mm 160 6.30 88 3.46 10 12, 15, 17, 19, 33 560 19.8 Subcompact
27 .40 S&W 9 11, 13, 17 560 19.8
28 .380 ACP 10 12, 15, 17, 19 529 18.7
29, 29SF 10mm Auto 172 6.77 96 3.78 10 15 700 24.7
30, 30SF .45 ACP 10 9, 13 680 24
31, 31C .357 SIG 186 7.32 114 4.49 15 10, 17 660 23.3 Standard
32, 32C 174 6.85 102 4.01 13 10, 15, 17 610 21.5 Compact
33 160 6.30 88 3.46 9 10, 11, 13, 15, 17 560 19.8 Subcompact
34 9x19mm 207 8.15 135 5.31 17 10, 19, 33 650 22.9 Competition
35 .40 S&W 15 10, 17 695 24.5
36 .45 ACP 172 6.77 96 3.78 6 - 570 20.1 Slimline
37 .45 GAP 189 7.44 116 4.56 10 - 735 25.9 Standard
38 174 6.85 102 4.01 8 10 685 24.2 Compact
39 160 6.30 88 3.46 6 8, 10 548 19.3 Subcompact
Notes:

* Glock pistols designated by "C" after the model number are equipped with ported barrels and slides to compensate for muzzle rise.

* Glock 18/18C pistols are 9x19mm Parabellum select fire machine pistols and not available to the general public in most countries.

* Glock pistols designated "SF" are "short-framed". They have a 2.5 mm (.10 inch) shorter trigger travel and the heel of the pistol is narrowed by 4 mm (.16 inches) for the full-sized framed Glock 20 and Glock 21.

* Glock 25 or 28 pistols are not available to the general public in the United States, because a small pistol chambered for the .380 ACP cartridge does not meet the "sporting purposes" criteria for importation of pistols under the Gun Control Act of 1968, according to the BATFE's point system. [3

Glock seems to be doing something right. More people trust their lives to a Glock that any other pistol it seems.

 

[Gryffydd]

All of them...

Glock is the only company making an auto loader? The only company making something with at least 8 rounds? etc. etc. I think you need to reread my question. The only company making a pistol in 9mm? Wow!
Yes, Glocks are great, no argument there. But to say no one else comes close to meeting those criteria is silly. Yes, they have won a lot of contracts. No argument there. But contracts are often won for more reasons than just the intrinsic characteristics of the guns, so it's really not the greatest measure of the quality of a gun. Yes, they certainly have a wide variety as well. I especially give them credit for offering something in 10mm. I wish more manufacturers would.

 

[Pappy109]

Glock is the only company making an auto loader? The only company making something with at least 8 rounds? etc. etc. I think you need to reread my question. The only company making a pistol in 9mm? Wow!
Yes, Glocks are great, no argument there. But to say no one else comes close to meeting those criteria is silly. Yes, they have won a lot of contracts. No argument there. But contracts are often won for more reasons than just the intrinsic characteristics of the guns, so it's really not the greatest measure of the quality of a gun. Yes, they certainly have a wide variety as well. I especially give them credit for offering something in 10mm. I wish more manufacturers would.

As Sir Winston Churchill once stated.

The truth:

Some will deny it, some will deride it, but in the end there it is.

In my humble opinion of 50 years with guns, there just isn't a better designed or manufactured handgun to date than the Glock. That is a sad testimony for America as well seeing we are using an Italian design of 1575 for our military.

 

[tipoc]

Pappy,

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

That is a sad testimony for America as well seeing we are using an Italian design of 1575 for our military.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

If you were only able to own one handgun, to be used for self-defense purposes in any given situation for the rest of your life, which handgun would you choose?

So I'd have something else for hunting. Something else for target work, something else for military purposes, etc. I'd chose what I already have. Colt Commander in .38 Super. With the accesories and ammo.

If I could not get that I'd take a S&W M624 with a 4" tapered barrel in .44 Spl.



tipoc

 

[Gryffydd]

In my humble opinion of 50 years with guns, there just isn't a better designed or manufactured handgun to date than the Glock.

That's all well and good. But I haven't seen you actually respond to any of my questions yet. I also see that you seem to have missed the fact that I acknowledged that they are fantastic weapons in many respects. I merely asked you to explain some of your more questionable statements.

That is a sad testimony for America as well seeing we are using an Italian design of 1575 for our military.

I had no idea that Beretta was making the M9 for that long! WOW! Or did I miss something and we're actually using these:

 

[Pappy109]

That's all well and good. But I haven't seen you actually respond to any of my questions yet. I also see that you seem to have missed the fact that I acknowledged that they are fantastic weapons in many respects. I merely asked you to explain some of your more questionable statements.


I had no idea that Beretta was making the M9 for that long! WOW! Or did I miss something and we're actually using these:

You want an argument and that is not going to happen my friend! America has lost the electronic, automotive, camera and firearms market shares because they are no longer the craftsmen of the world. Defect ratio's acceptable up to 10% is no longer an acceptable criteria to capture a world market. That's the sad part and the sad testimony of Americans. We all need to wake up and strive to get our America back.

 

[wesessiah]

pappy109:

i think i have a guns and ammo mag that lists the 60 countries; i'll look for it.

The pistol was required to pass a wide variety of tests:

The police required that the pistol ensure the highest level of comfort, an extended slide release was added as well as an extended magazine release and the trigger was reshaped to give a more consistent pull throughout the trigger stroke.

The pistol must be 100% reliable in extreme conditions, the following is a list of some of the minimum requirements.

Must be able to complete the following without failure:

4000 dry firings
3000 De-cockings
Operator level disassembly 1350 times with out ware or damage to components.
Complete disassembly 150 times, this is all the way down, pins, springs etc.
100% interchangability, any number of pistols randomly selected, disassembled, parts mixed and reassembled with no failures of any kind including loss of accuracy.


Safety requirements:

Drop test
1.5 meter (4.9”) drop test, this is done 54 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked. Dropping the pistol on the butt, the muzzle, back of the slide, sides of the gun, top of the slide, in essence, any angle that you could drop the gun from. This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.

3meter drop (9.8”) 5 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked, This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.

After these tests are complete the gun must fire without service.

The factory contracted an independent lab to do additional testing on guns that previously passed the drop tests. These pistol were dropped an additional 352 times without failure.

The pistol must also complete an environmental conditions test:
This means cold, heat, dust/sand and mud.
The pistol must fire after being frozen for 24 hours at –35C (-36F).
The pistol must fire after being heated for 24 hours at 70C (126F)
The pistol must fire after being submerged in mud, sand and combinations including being stripped of oil then completing the sand and mud tests again.

Service life:
The service life requirement from the Czech police was 15,000 rounds of +P ammo!
The pistol will exceed 30,000 rounds with ball 9mm.

Reliability:
The reliability requirements for the P-01 pistol are 99.8%, that’s a .2% failure rate.
This equals 20 stoppages in 10,000 rounds or 500 “Mean Rounds Between Failure” (MRBF)
During testing, the average number of stoppages was only 7 per 15,000 rounds fired, this is a .05% failure rate, a MRBF rate of 2142 rounds! Over 4 time the minimum acceptable requirement.
The U.S. Army MRBF requirement is 495 rounds for 9mm pistols with 115 grain Ball ammunition.

Heritage:
The P-01 is based on the CZ 75, the most used pistol in the world. Over 60 countries use it as the standard side arm of their Armies, National police forces, National security agencies or other Law enforcement organizations. No other pistol can make this claim.

others that have passed the testing, from what i understand, are: sig 226 sig 228, browning hi-power, Beretta m9, bretta cougar and CZ 75 B

 

[AKElroy]

How I voted & what I want to shoot are not the same gun. If I was FORCED to only have one forever, it would be a G19. Great CCW, accurate, durable, great parts availability & a monkey can fix it.

What I WANT would be a toss up between a 1911 and CZ75/85.

 

[MM60]

That is a sad testimony for America as well seeing we are using an Italian design of 1575 for our military.

I think Pappy109 meant 1975...? Wikipedia says the Beretta 92 has been "In service 1975-present".

 

[Pappy109]

I think Pappy109 meant 1975...? Wikipedia says the Beretta 92 has been "In service 1975-present".

Yes thank you it was a typo on the date it should read 1975

 

[Pappy109]

pappy109:

i think i have a guns and ammo mag that lists the 60 countries; i'll look for it.



others that have passed the testing, from what i understand, are: sig 226 sig 228, browning hi-power, Beretta m9, bretta cougar and CZ 75 B

I am by no means an expert at anything. I just know a good thing when I see it. I am by no means saying that everybody has to see it my way either. That would be pompous and narcissistic. I only state my opinion as was asked for by the OP.

 

[wesessiah]

^ i understand, i just wanted to throw that out there as an nbc "the more you know" thing. btw, i wouldn't try to take anything away from glock, they tend to be excellent guns, though i personally can't get used to the grip angle, and don't prefer them. btw, apparantly the g17 is in that small group of guns i mentioned.

 

[Tacbandit]

Glock 19...no question!

 

[Gryffydd]

You want an argument and that is not going to happen my friend!

I don't want an argument, I just am looking for an explanation of a few points you made which don't make sense to me. I agree that they're fantastic weapons, but to say they're the only ones that come close to meeting an objective set of criteria that clearly are met by a number of other guns does need to be questioned.

I only state my opinion as was asked for by the OP.

Which is good, and welcomed, and there is a lot of evidence to back up your opinion. It's just that the way you phrased it in the context of your original post it didn't sound like your opinion, it sounded like you were making the absolute statement that no other guns came close to meeting those criteria, that's all. Your tone did change quite drastically once wesessiah mentioned the other guns that also passed the testing

 

[Pappy109]

My attitude never changes. I am too old and set in my ways they say.

Now the one thing I can say with total certainty is that monkeys can not fix Glocks. I have personally observed my son-in-law trying and he failed. More than once too!:banghead:

 

[Pappy109]

^ i understand, i just wanted to throw that out there as an nbc "the more you know" thing. btw, i wouldn't try to take anything away from glock, they tend to be excellent guns, though i personally can't get used to the grip angle, and don't prefer them. btw, apparantly the g17 is in that small group of guns i mentioned.

I saw that but it was academic at that point, but I did enjoy the conversation.

 

[wow6599]

I voted Ruger.....but I wouldn't buy a new one (long story).
Give me a 4" or 6" GP100. It will take all the abuse you can throw at it, .38 Spl to hot .357 Mag and no magazines to worry about.

 

[wesessiah]

^ referring to monkies... i have to admit, the first time i went to field strip a glock (all i'd owned to that point were hammer fired guns, and my friend just picked this one up after i took him to a gun show) it took me a few minutes to figure it out. i got all pissed off pulling the slide back exactly 4mm (or whatever) the manual says to pull it back and move the slide lock down. the slide just wouldn't come off, and the manual didn't say anything about pulling the trigger or whatever making sure the striker wasn't cocked... finally i just decided to pull it to see if it worked... instant face palm moment.

 

[tipoc]

Not to be a pest but it was in 1978 that Congress authorized the Dept. of Defense to begin trials for a new pistol to replace the M1911A1. It wasn't until 1985 that the M9 was officially adopted as that sidearm. 25 years ago.

tipoc

 

[Ryder]

If I can only have one it's going to be capable of very heavy loads and built like a tank.

 

[waterhouse]

The thing about 1911 fanboys is that they refuse to admit that they carry an outdated handgun despite all logic and common sense. The same thing goes for revolver carry for SD, except that revolver fans don't make a big deal out if it. I would go so far as to say that almost any (NOT ALL) other semi-auto handgun models, in a SD-sufficient caliber, from any of the manufacturers listed in this poll would be an improvement over the heavy, low-capacity, tool-takedown, SAO 1911.

I'm curious, you stated in your other thread that the 1911 needs a hex key to field strip. Here you mention that it is "tool-takedown." What brand 1911 are you referring to? I own 6 or 7 1911s from various manufacturers (Colt, STI, Dan Wesson, Smith & Wesson, Caspian, Fusion) and none needs a hex key to field strip.

Before I get called a 1911 fanboy, I generally happen to carry a completely different heavy, low capacity, single stack gun, except it is made by HK. I also own about a dozen other HK pistols and 8 or 9 Sigs, but I'd carry a 1911 before any of them, mostly because they are easy to conceal and I shoot them well, probably in part because of that SAO trigger that is so outdated.

 

[IdahoLT1]

In the OP's first thread, i understood it as what pistol would i like to own, and to me, it was a 10mm. Probably a Dan Wesson CBOB 10mm. In this thread, though, i voted Beretta. I dont need a pistol to hunt, thats what rifles and shotguns are for. I need a pistol to defend myself, an in my experience, none of the pistols ive ever owned(Glock, S&W, Ruger, Kahr, Taurus, EAA) have been better than my Beretta 92.

MM60 will try to convince me that SIG is better but this last summer, SIG recalled 3000+ of their P238's. So much for "being the best, most advanced, newest, most logical choice".

He is very ignorant and stubborn. He bashes Kahr, without any knowledge or experieance with their guns, only because of their price tag, looks, low capacity and how the company name sounds. Little does he know, Kahr entered the pistol business after Florida passed the approval of a concealed weapons liscense and during the AWB of '94. They made their guns to be exclusively conceal carry pieces with less than 10 rounds. And they took the market by storm. They still are one of the best choices for conceal carry, but MM60 will never buy one because they look like a Kel-Tec, sound like they are from Iraq, have low capacity and dont have an over-inflated SIG or HK price tag. Yea, thats real logical decision making.

Im suprised he hasnt made 12 threads with skewed poll options to get the numbers to justify why he likes SIGs and HK. The only way SIG will have a huge lead in poll options is if the question was "what would you prefer to defend yourself with? A) a pointy stick B) a SIG or C) an empty 1911"

 

[tipoc]

The thing about 1911 fanboys is that they refuse to admit that they carry an outdated handgun despite all logic and common sense. The same thing goes for revolver carry for SD, except that revolver fans don't make a big deal out if it. I would go so far as to say that almost any (NOT ALL) other semi-auto handgun models, in a SD-sufficient caliber, from any of the manufacturers listed in this poll would be an improvement over the heavy, low-capacity, tool-takedown, SAO 1911.

Interesting "poll" here. When is a poll not really a poll? When it's used not to learn something but to prove some point of the poster. I'm not sure what the point is though.

In the post quoted above the OP insults all individuals who choose to tote a 1911 based gun or a wheelgun for their personal self defense. "Fanboys" carries a derogatory note to it. Keep in mind the poll does not indicate what gun they believe the Army should carry or what they would want on a battlefield, or "come the revolution" etc., but what they would want for self defense. Personal self defense. While the OP has strong opinions against the revolver or 1911 he appears to be ignorant of both.

1911s do not require any tools to field strip. Those that are equipped with two piece guide rods do. But the option to have a two piece or one piece guide rod (as distinct from the GI style recoil spring retainer) is a shooters choice option which the basic 1911 design allows for. There is no gun as versatile as the 1911 when it comes to the ability to adapt them to personal use or to differing mission requirements. This is one thing, among several, that has kept them in the front ranks of defensive and competitive tools internationally.

Many individuals also choose revolvers as their primary defensive tools. This is because they work well at that and many people prefer what wheelguns bring to the table. The decision to carry a GP100 as your personal CCW does not mean you think the Marine Corp should dump the M9 in favor of a wheelgun. This does not mean that these folks have no "logic or common sense" as the OP states.

The OP appears to be unaware of the evolution of both the 1911 and of modern revolvers. For a fella who claims to be an experienced gunny he shows a Grand Canyon of not knowingness. I don't mean to be disrespectful saying this but it's kinda obvious.

tipoc

 

[Zach S]

The thing about 1911 fanboys is that they refuse to admit that they carry an outdated handgun despite all logic and common sense. The same thing goes for revolver carry for SD, except that revolver fans don't make a big deal out if it. I would go so far as to say that almost any (NOT ALL) other semi-auto handgun models, in a SD-sufficient caliber, from any of the manufacturers listed in this poll would be an improvement over the heavy, low-capacity, tool-takedown, SAO 1911.

I can detail strip any 1911 I own, with a pencil, nail, paperclip, just about anything stiff and thin enough to push the firing pin in. Everything else can be removed with part of the gun.

On my mil-spec, I didnt need that much.

You ever meet me in person, you dont want to bet me. I've won well over $100 on this bet, one or five bucks at a time. Tried to bet $100 a few times, but at that point they knew I was holding a good hand and walked away, or settled on $5...