RE: Oleg's Dating Pic

[Lupinus]

So I am to send my daughter into a situation where she could be arrested and possibly even charged as an accesory, because he wants to make a political stand?

Sorry, being political is fine and dandy. But doing it through illegal mean's does nothing but add fuel to the fire and give them more reason to take away more gun right's. Does there come a time for armed resistence? Sure, when all else fail's, but are we anywhere near that time? No, far, far from it. Illgal activity of that nature will do nothing but get you thrown in jail and get the guy that attacked you off without any charge's.

 

[m0ntels]

Maybe I should answer my own question too

I'm 25 now and dont have any kids of my own, but I do think I am pretty responsible and a good judge of character. I got my permit finally last year. Before that, I may have possibly had my pistol on me the few occassions I was required to go the hour drive to Central and South Philadelphia. Basically that was it besides traveling with both guns and ammo not loaded but together in the car which I didnt even think was illegal until later on. So I have been responsible with non-permitted situations in the past. I knew it wasnt the best idea, but neither is being in a really scary part of town with a pair of boots as my best defense. Would I count that as a strike against a daughter's date? Hell yes. Even if the guy was totally responsible, he still would be risking my daughter's well-being by making her part of his civil disobedience.

Another thing that was somewhat touched on...his legal carry. To get my carry permit, I had to have a fresh $20 bill, a drivers license, and the ability to sign my name. My permit is not even a plastic card. It comes in the mail as a xerox copy of my drivers license and says carry license or something like that on it. It isnt even laminated as it comes--I did that own my own. My dad has shot guns all his life and has a permit...and I refuse to shoot with him he scares me so much. I probably would ask for a permit first, and then say I'm holding his gun. He better not be taking her anywhere where it is likely he needs it on a first date, or any date I know about. The second date would be with me and him at the range so I can see his ability to be responsible with his weapon. And to see what else he has

As for his attire, I wear what I call "work clothes." I look acceptable, but I dont really own too much fancy stuff. I work on cars by day, and guns by night. I have a few nice shirts and pants, but not many. First date I always try to look my best, but in the end, I probably look like I am going to work. I've never tried to look like a punk or gangster, but I have hung out with a few. I dont hang out with creeps, they just sometimes look like them. Whatever they wanna wear is fine with me, just so long as it stays on! Look gangsta if you want if you stay in good areas where you wont be mistaken for a real one. And for God's sake, pull up them pants at least or I will do it for you. I wouldnt care if she was 30, I dont want to think about my kid seeing any guy's drawers

The having unannounced guns in other people's homes is another good one. My usual buddy is a airweight snub, and honestly, I sometimes forget about it. I still have friends in college towns, off campus, and I dont even think about it until after I'm already there. They know I shoot, but I dont think many know I carry. Most arent interested in guns, so I dont mention it. Do I think it's rude? Sorta. I make sure it is always secured and safe. The one time it really kicked in that maybe I should ask is when I stayed with my friend and her 2 and 3 yr old daughters. Daddy doesnt live there and is a bit stalkerish. I wasnt doing anything naughty anyway, but I could not see him buying that if he decided to show up. But the first night I was there, I got concerned with the kids climbing all over me and jumping on me and stuff kids do. It's a weird feeling the first time you notice a loaded chamber is a few inches from a kid's head. The rest of the stay I kept it locked up in my room. I asked her at the end of the weekend if she'd be upset if I had brought my gun. She told me she was honestly surprised that I didnt have it with me. She said she knew me well enough to know I would be safe with it, and that she'd actually feel good about it. Honesty is probably the best policy, but I do brace myself for weird looks or extensive questioning and anti slogan shouting whenever I tell someone I'm prepared for anything.

Randy

 

[Thumper]

My ex girlfriend's dad started cleaning his G19 at the dinner table while I was waiting for her on our second date. I asked if he had any .45 brushes and would he mind if I joined him.

She's hitched now, but he and I are still buddies.

 

[Jac]

It shows....at least to me anyways....that even though he may not agree with the laws.....he still follows them. That, in my mind, is sufficient to show that he semi-respects those in power above him.....I may not agree with the law but I will still tolerate it if it is tolerable.....just as the young gentleman should that wishes to take my daughter out. It shows that he was willing to follow the "paper trail" to get his CCW. That he was willing to go through the hoops and understand the laws governing it.

As is your right.

I just don't understand why it would be such a big deal. If you wanted to ascertain whether or not he was responsible, yes, I respect that. I just don't see what a government permit has to do with that. Perhaps I'm just coming at this from a libertarian standpoint, whereas you are coming at it from the standpoint of there being laws that should be obeyed. <shrug>

Personally, as long as he's responsible in all other aspects of his life, I'd rather my (hypothetical) daughter's date have a healthy disrespect for government authority.

 

[junyo]

"Well sir, although this state has provisions for individuals with no criminal record to take a training course and receive a ccw permit, I declined to apply for one based on my political principle that such permits are a direct slap in the face to the Second Amendment"

Whatever Poindexter...

Though it's my announced and intended intention to scare the bejebers out of any young man that comes calling, by the time my daughter is dating someone old enough to be walking around strapped a) I've hopefully given her the tools to be a good judge of character, b) taught her how to shoot, and c) bought her a big enough purse for her gun and a couple of extra mags. I pity the boy that chooses to get rowdy with her.

 

[Vitamin G]

Well... (Here goes)

I'm 25, and have a very respectable job counseling teenagers who have been adjudicated delinquent and have serious drug and alcohol addiction problems. I just graduated with my Master's degree in counseling, and have a monday-friday job in a residential treatment facility. You'd be hard pressed to find me in a suit, tie, or even a button down shirt unless its got ridiculous hawaiian patterns. I'm a big fan of cargo shorts and a Tshirt. Oversized also, because i always carry a surefire flashlight.

Here's a kicker...
I have a 44waist, and a 28leg. Since i usually have to buy 44x32 pants and hem them, my pants look poofier than Eminem's unless I special order them, which i can't afford as a counselor/social worker. You'd DEFINATELY think I was a thug gangsta dropout with minimal change in my dress. In fact, I think all i'd have to do is undo my Rafter-S sharkskin belt a couple notches, and I'd have the perfect rear-shelf pant hang.

And in addition...
I look about 19 when I shave.

As if that wasn't enough...
I've been at this job for five years, when I was still a senior in my undergrad, working on my BA in psych and criminal justice. I've picked up alot of "street" terminology and "urban inflection" in my normal speech. I can speak the Queen's English when I'm subpoenaed to court, or writing a treatment plan, but I'm just as at home in hardcore ebonics, which i personally feel is a crock. Once i got into a foodfight with my sister because she ended a sentance in a preposition at the dinner table. Yes, I can be a grammar nazi. My father, my sister, and I, all took at least three years of latin at one point or another.

My point...
I usually dress rather shabby (I'm usually in at least one "physical intervention" (breaking up a fight) per week)
My normal mode of speech is rather "urban" (Frankly, alot of these teens can't understand me when I speak proper english)
...And i consider myself the upstanding citizen.




Cliffnotes : I look and dress like a standard teenage idiot, and I'm quite the upstanding citizen, and if i may say so, rather impressive for my age.

 

[exoduster18]

Jac....

I am coming from the standpoint that laws should be obeyed......if if makes sense....I myself have already posted that will follow and tolerate it, if it is indeed well defined and clearly understood, will abide by it. I can understand the certain disrespect of some governmental laws and agencies (cough, BATFE, cough) but they are still in place to be abided by. It is also your right to try and ascertain the responsibility of such a gentleman in your own ways. I just tend to feel that, although, the government isn't always right, it still has standards and laws for the public to abide by. I just feel that if he was willing to go through the hoops and all the other crap they tend to give you, then he was responsible enough to understand the laws and go through the process.....and I to tend to agree with this "Personally, as long as he's responsible in all other aspects of his life, I'd rather my (hypothetical) daughter's date have a healthy disrespect for government authority." to a certain point. I don't feel that our government is the best....but it is definitely far from being the worst. Hope this clears somethings up....I (not meaning to offend and not trying to come across as a smart@ss) appreciate how you debated with me with forethought and reason...not many people I have dealt with to managed to stay courteous and debate......not argue and yell. Yet again Thank You for not bereaving me and taking "The High Road" and doing so logically.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Every law-abiding American citizen should keep and bear arms.

 

[exoduster18]

Amen...

Amen...to that one Standing Wolf....

 

[Lupinus]

Yes they should. But legaly. We arn't speaking a thirty round mag in an area where you are only allowed a ten round one.

An outright illegal firearm? No. If it is sitting at your house that's one thing. But if you are carrying it around with you Im sorry that doesn't cut it.

Descent is fine and healthy. But there are healthy and unhealthy ways to do it. Healthy is to find every loophole in the law and no mater how hard they make it do it anyway, but by the law. And speak out agianst it and do everything in your power to change it. Untill such a time it get's so bad the only way to preserve your right's is to fight the system through illegal action doing it illegaly is wrong and help's nothing. To me, if you lived in NOLA and shot a cop or National Guardsmen trying to illegaly confiscate your gun, that is doing something normally illegal to preserve your right's because it has coem to that point. But jsut walking around with total disreguard for the law, even if the law is far over bearing, is wrong.

I think speed limit's are to low. And while I may sometime's speed I don't reguarly drive a 100mph even though there are time's I could saftly and easily do so. Descent is fine. Fighting when all else fail's is fine. Outright disreguard for the law is not fine.

 

[Jac]

Yet again Thank You for not bereaving me and taking "The High Road" and doing so logically.

It's my pleasure... nice to have a civilized debate once in a while.

Outright disreguard for the law is not fine.

The law is a slippery slope... sometimes you just have to dig in. How would you feel if you had to get a permit just to own a pistol?

 

[jpIII]

I see good points on both sides. If I may add a few more of my own.

-If the gentleman caller is obedient enough to abide by municiple/state laws, chances are he'll also follow daddy's "house rules"

-I somewhat doubt a date is in much danger of being an accessory to the crime of carrying a concealed weapon. (possible, but unlikely)

-On the other hand,carrying anyway does show an independent, clear thinking individual with a mind like my own.

hard to decide if you ask me. (but I would probably prefer the permit if it is required by the state you reside in)

JPIII

 

[gaston_45]

Hey Lupinus, what's that line in bold type in your sig line again??

 

[Flyboy]

Sorry, being political is fine and dandy. But doing it through illegal mean's does nothing but add fuel to the fire and give them more reason to take away more ... right's.
...
But jsut walking around with total disreguard for the law, even if the law is far over bearing, is wrong.

Yup. I hate it when them uppity <epithet> come in our diner and use our end of the bus. Ain't they got no respect for the law?

Sorry, what were we talking about again?

 

[Lupinus]

The law is a slippery slope... sometimes you just have to dig in. How would you feel if you had to get a permit just to own a pistol?

Might I have one without hte proper permit? Maybe. If that's the law that's the law. is it a BS law? Absoloutly. But it is the law. Proper thing to do is to activly speak agianst it, write your representative. Show that whatever bs law they try to impose on you will not keep you from exorcising your right while you work to get the law changed. If all else fail's move and take your tax dollar's with you to someplace more friendly for your belief's. But even if I had an illegal firearm I damn sure wouldn't be carrying it around on me. That's asking to be arrested and does nothing to help make bs firearm's law go away.

If he disobey's the law of the state because he think's it's unjust and doesn't want to work activly to get it changed. Should I trust him to not disobey other law's he consider's to be BS with my daughter? Drug's, drinking, reckless behaviour, etc? Or obey the limit's placed on their dating? (Where and what are off limit's, what time she has to be home, you use it you loose it, etc.?)

 

[Lupinus]

Hey Lupinus, what's that line in bold type in your sig line again??

I know what it is. But there are proper way's to challenge and inproper way's to challenge it.

Yup. I hate it when them uppity <epithet> come in our diner and use our end of the bus. Ain't they got no respect for the law?

So we are comparing it to that now? When the goverment tell's me I can;t carry a gun period, then the time for law abiding is over. So long as it is while the law may be overbearing there is proper and inproper way's to challenge it.

 

[Flyboy]

A right is a right; it doesn't have degrees.

Here's one for those of you who wouldn't let your daughters go out with an otherwise-respectable gentleman caller who exercised his rights: if your daughter were going somewhere dangerous (and didn't have the option of not going), would you allow her to carry? If so, what's the difference?

 

[Lupinus]

A right is a right; it doesn't have degrees.

And that doesn't mean a law should be outright disobeyed. Agian. Proper and Inproper way's of challenging law. You do what you like I havn't any intention of reporting you. But you will not be dating m daughter if you have complete disreguard for the law. Should I allow him to use drug's around my daughter too? So long as he feel's anti drug law's are BS too? No. You do what you like, my daughter is not being dragged into it if you can't obey simple law's. When the gun is banned that is one thing. When it is regulated fallow the law and work within legal means to change don't just say screw you and do it anyway, least not around my daughter.

if your daughter were going somewhere dangerous (and didn't have the option of not going), would you allow her to carry? If so, what's the difference?

You like throwing off hypothetical's don't you?
Why don't you elaborate on your place's she doesn't have an option of not going to that are so dangerous she'd need a gun? If it was that dangerous I wouldn't be trusting her to go alone with some guy that can't even follow a basic law and properly challenge it.

 

[gaston_45]

Uhh... Lupinus... blacks could ride the bus, it wasn't banned, they just couldn't ride in particular seats. We can carry guns, just not particular guns. It is the identical thing according to your very example! As far as the right and wrong way, sometimes you have to throw tea in the bay even if you would rather drink the tea, if it proves your point. Oh, and even though littering wasn't an issue then, it was still illegal for them to throw the tea in the bay. Personally, I am glad they didn't try to "talk it out" and waste time losing a war of attrition while they waited for the king to decide what to do. Hmm... kind of like what we are doing with the patriot act now huh? Just follow the law and all will be well, just protest legally... oh, you mean you can't because you are locked up without charges or representation? When is enough Lupinus?

If a fine young man showed up to date my one of my daughters( in another 12 years when they are old enough) carying a weapon I would ascertain whether or not he would be willing to use it in the fullest to protect my daughter. If he would, fine. If not, well, he would get a kindly explaination why his night is being cut short. No mention of legal or otherwise is needed, because an adult has the right to keep and bear arms which shall not be infringed by any silly permit or waiting period.

 

[EddieCoyle]

OK, I'll bite.

no takers on my hypothetical?

come on,...just picture it.

Clean cut guy and his response is something like this

"Well sir, although this state has provisions for individuals with no criminal record to take a training course and receive a ccw permit, I declined to apply for one based on my political principle that such permits are a direct slap in the face to the Second Amendment"

I have a beautiful daughter that is just approaching dating age.

Where I live, they have a name for clean cut young men that decline to apply for a CCW based their political principles and carry anyway. We call them "felons". I refuse to let my daughter date a felon no matter how clean cut or principled he may be.

Try this: He really is a convicted felon, can't get a permit for concealed carry, and the part about being "principled" was just a line.

What if they get pulled over on the way home after two drinks? Will his principles guide him to shoot it out with the authorities that are depriving him of his second ammendment rights rather than go to jail?

Look, my belief in the RTKandBA borders on obsession. However, I will not break the law, even if I don't agree with it. I will not let my daughter date a lawbreaker either. Would you?

 

[Lupinus]

They are seperate issue's.

Will we reach the point one day where the same sort of action is needed? Quite possibly, given the current track. Are we there yet? No.

How long and how much pushing did it take for our founding father's to revolt? Diplomacy was tried and when it failed the result was rebelion. They exhausted other way's of doing it. The same applies here. While that point may be reached it hasn't been reached at this point in time. In 12 year's or when I have daughters old enough to date the situation may very well be different. For all we know in another 12 or 13 year's that point may have been reached.

If I had a daughter right now old enough to date given current situation's I have stated how I would act. Given different situation's and current laws of the time the answer may very well be different.

If you can get a permit there is no reason not to and carry a gun anyway. If you live in a state where you can't, well then I might be a bit more open minded. If it is something you are willing to risk with your daughter that's your choice. Given current law's and situation's he would be sent packing...pardon the pun.

 

[Lupinus]

Well said Eddie.

Proper and inproper way's to challenge law and get it changed. We have not yet reached the point for open rebellion agianst the law. In most place's it is neither opressive enough and has not be challenged enough.

 

[m0ntels]

I think Lupinus's point is while they may have a right to carry (legal issues aside,) they dont have a RIGHT to break his rules of his house. If daddy says no dating felons in his house, then no dating felons in his house, whether they are morally right or not!

Randy

 

[kel]

Don't be surprised that many people wouldn't let their daughters go out with someone carrying illegally....they are being sensible in that way. As parents they would want a young suitor to show that he was responsible in that he obtained the CCW license and exercised that right carefully. That shows the girl's parents that he is somewhat responsible and not a total idiot.

Now, as for my own daughter (that I don't have, I'm am to young to be a father, I am in college and will have kids when I have settled down and decided I'm good and ready to have a family, besides I'm only 18), if he does have the permit then yes she may go, but if not, then forget it. If you can't be a responsible gun owner, I have to assume that you can't properly handle, so then if you can't treat a gun like a responsible person then why would I think that you could be respectful and responsible towards my daughter?

And if no license is available?

 

[Lupinus]

Basicly

Morally right and I might allow it if you are a good guy. But at this point, breaking the law to illegaly carry a gun is not morally right. I havn't looked extensivly into law's in some state's like Jersey where it is extremely restrictive. In that case, I MAY consider it if im in a good mood. In many place's, you can get a CCW. If you can get one, get it. We are not at the point IMO where open disobediance of the law is warrented so therefor, good for you do it all you want, just do it away from my daughter and family unless you are going to do it legaly untill such point as there is no longer a point in going the legal route. At which time I will gladly move to a state which decide's to leave the US in order to protect the right's of it's citizen's right along with you. Till that day, do it legal or do it elsewhere.