SA For EDC

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Good Ol' Boy

Good Ol' Boy

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This is meant to be a serious discussion so lets please not stoop to belittling. I will start off by saying that I would never consider carrying a SA revolver for SD.

HOWEVER, I am very interested in understanding how those that do, well, do. What's your technique during drawing and firing, and do you worry about reloading?

There are many videos about this subject online and after having watched a few I just thought it would be nice to hear some feedback from folks who actually carry this set up every day.
 
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The only way I could see doing this would be out in the boonies, where the "animals" would have four legs. :eek:
 
On a ranch or piece of property, but, in the city,
I wouldn't consider that very practical. I'm listening
though.
 
For the first shot I really don't see a single action being much slower. My first centerfire handgun was a Blackhawk and I still find to to be the most accurate.

However, it weighs more than a fully loaded glock 17 and carries 1/3 the ammo... I'm a big revolver fan in general but I don't find a pencil barrel m10 worth carrying
 
I have heard and read many discussions on this topic and here's what I take away from it. There are many shooters out there who love Cowboy Action shooting but do little to no other shooting. If all you ever shoot is a SA revolver it's the gun you are comfortable with and can probably shoot well. Since that's true you are probably better off with it instead of a gun you don't shoot, especially for Home Defense.
 
I often carry a SAO revolver for self defense, especially in the warmer months. Usually it will be one of a pair of Uberti Schofield 7.5" replicas in 45 lc. Sometimes one of my cartridge converted Rogers & Spencers. My primary defensive concern when carrying these revolvers are rattle snakes. First two rounds in the cylinder are loaded with a 1/2 -5/8 oz of #9 shot. The patterns start doughnut holing past 12 feet, but they are quiet and even from horseback effective. I'm not hunting snakes after all. My next concerns are humans, coyote coming after my dog, and a far distant concern are moose, elk and bears. The rest of my load consists of 250 grs wadcutters. Not great for length, but they are going to really hurt. I carry a speedloader with a similar load, and several loose snakeshot and wadcutter rounds.

When snakes aren't a concern, I carry a 1911 or S&W M&P40. I use a flap or strap holster, to better retain while riding and to protect the firearm from the elements and flora, as well as ND. I feel very comfortable and confident with a single action revolver. None of my pistols would be a good concealed carry weapon in my opinion, but I don't carry concealed.

The weight has recoil down near nothing and I shoot these well. Indeed, my "main" R&S conversion is the most accurate pistol I own and 250 grs over 36 grs black powder is certainly quite deadly at 895 fps. 200 grs Horandy XTPs at 1100 fps from the Schofields offer even more confidence.

If I were seriously concerned, I would, and do, carry a rifle or shotgun.
 
I have on occasion carried a single-action for CCSD. Generally speaking I am not worried about capacity or reloading; the number of cases where a normal civilian has gotten in a protracted fire-fight are vanishingly rare. Civilian self-defense almost always resolve in 2-3 shots. Yes, I carry a reload someplace handy, and plan to take cover and remain vigilant if I need to reload.

I do things differently than the fellow in the video posted above- but I cut my teeth on a single-action and have almost always had one around for the last few decades. First off I cock the gun with the thumb of my gun-hand; it just naturally rolls up under recoil, I catch the hammer with my thumb and cock it as it comes back on target. This is very natural for me and very fast. How fast? I shot this group this afternoon at ten yards in about 3 seconds with the gun shown.
3aohY8N.jpg
The gun is a customized Cimarron Richards/Mason conversion in .38 Special, and these weren't cowboy loads; they were 125gr. JHPs.

Now, what I do is not modern and I am not advising anyone to emulate me. In the way-backs I was taught to consciously press my trigger-finger against the front of the trigger guard while cocking the hammer instead of laying the finger along the frame of the gun. This has always worked for me, but again it's how I learned and I've been doing it forever. It's not what I would teach someone else to do in this day and age.

Coming out of leather the thumb goes on the hammer and the finger goes inside the trigger-guard and pressed forward as described above, but the hammer doesn't come back until the gun is on-target and the trigger-finger doesn't move until I intend to fire. As mentioned above I don't thumb-cock with the off-hand, not for the first shot or the subsequent shots because in a fight you might not have that off-hand available.

This gun is a reproduction of a gun from the early 1870s. There is no transfer bar safety, but the firing pin can be rested against the cylinder between chambers and the cartridge-rims keep it from rotating. I feel perfectly confident with six rounds chambered.

I have several modern handguns ranging from a Glock to a Chiapa Rhino, and every one is a 'better' carry gun than a single-action. I used to shoot IPSC, and am an ex police officer. I am well-acquainted with modern firearms and shooting. So why would I carry a dinosaur like this? Because it suits me; I like it and more importantly I am very confident in what this gun and I can do together.

Now, I get that this isn't 'sensible.' I am far more often carrying a double-action revolver, and if I wanted to be serious about it I should be carrying my Glock 23 or 1911. But sometimes the SA just feels right.
 
Good Ol' Boy said:
This is meant to be a serious discussion so lets please not stoop to belittling. I will start off by saying that I would never consider carrying a SA revolver for SD.

HOWEVER, I am very interested in understanding how those that do, well, do. What's your technique during drawing and firing, and do you worry about reloading?

There are many videos about this subject online and after having watched a few I just thought it would be nice to hear some feedback from folks who actually carry this set up every day.
Click to expand...

I have participated in Cowboy Action Shooting for 20 years and Cowboy Mounted Shooting for 4 years and having shot many thousands of rounds I think I can speak with a degree of credibility. We also live in the country so I frequently carry a single action revolver for work around the farm, horseback riding and for self-defense.

The first and most important thing to decide is what type of single action you are carrying.

A Colt Single Action Army and clones are safe only with the hammer down on a empty chamber. We commonly call this "five beans in the wheel." A Colt SAA action allows the firing pin on the hammer to directly hit the primer thus a hard impact on the hammer can cause the firing pin to hit the primer hard enough to fire the cartridge.

Rugers and Single Actions that use a transfer bar are safe to carry loaded with six rounds.

Carry of Single Action Revolver isn't any different than carrying a double action revolver. For iwb carry the bulk of the cylinder is the most difficult part to deal with. That is why some holster designs place the cylinder above the waistband of the pants.

Well almost not any different than carrying a double action revolver. You actually don't need a holster to carry a SAA style revolver. Simply flip the reloading gate open and slide the gun inside the waistband of your pants. The open reloading gate will catch on the top of waistband keeping the gun from sliding down inside your pants.

When drawing the gun I cock the hammer as I bring it on target with my finger off of the trigger. Once my gun is pointed downrange I place my finger on trigger and acquire my sight picture. Just for the record I am proficient with both single (from CMSA) and two hand shooting.

When using both hands I use my weak hand to cock the hammer for each shot. The obvious advantage is I never have to break my strong hand grip and it is easy to get all of the shots off as rapidly as a double action revolver.

The reach for the hammer is a big disadvantage with shooting with one hand as it is necessary to break the grip for each shot. With my Vaqueros I have installed Bisley type hammers which place the hammer spur lower making it easier to reach.

As commented the Single action is designed to rotate up in the hand when shooting one hand. This is a big reason why rubber grips such as Pachmyer are a bad idea.
The grip rotating in the hand redirects the recoil away from the body.

When done shooting I simply stop cocking the hammer.

Reloads on the clock and SAA should not be used in the same sentence.

However the S&W American and Schofield top break models are easy and relatively quick to reload. The empty case are ejected from the cylinder when the gun is opened and the open cylinder makes it easy to feed rounds into the chambers.

While I no longer carry a revolver as my primary edc I am confident with my single actions and will carry one when going into town if it is more convenient.

I let the other Single Action fans add their advice now.
 
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Often carry a single action revolver, most frequently a Blackhawk. It is generally carried OWB cross draw. Let me see if I can break down the draw.

As you reach across the body turn slight toward the target with the weapon side (I'm a lefty so mine's opposite than for most folks, thus referring to the weapon side). The weak hand is sweeping the covering garment out of the way and is thus out of the way. The handgun is drawn and once it clears the holster it is pivoted (still pointing at the ground) toward the target. At close range it can be fired at that point. If two hand hold is desired the support hand grasps the firearm as it is coming up. This also "blades" the torso to the target making a slightly smaller area that is exposed.

There is someone who can likely explain it better but it works with some rapidity, and more to the point (since folks always seem to get it wrong) it only exposed the ground and the target to the sweep of the muzzle.
 
Uberti 45 colt, 4.75" barrel. I draw strong side from iwb or pancake holster. I cock with weak hand thumb.
250 gr soft lead wadcutters.
I grew up with single actions. Didnt have a slide til I was 30 yrs old. Sold it soon after.
I carry reloads on occasion in a belt slide.
When i reload, the revolver never leaves the strong(right) hand. Load latch and ejector rod are all handled with left hand. The pointer finger of the right hand manipulates the cylinder spin from the cylinder flutes(i actually believe thats what they're ment for).
 
I don't see a SA revolver as being any slower than carrying a pistol with the safety on. It would take training to get adept at cocking when drawing and to make it part of your natural motion, but again, not that much different than taking off the safety. Folks should carry what they feel most confident with, and are most proficient with. Sometimes they can only afford to carry what they have. If this is a SA revolver, it's still better than a rock.
 
If all someone did was hunt or target shoot or compete with SA's and decided to start carrying I wouldn't bemoan them for carrying an SA.

My experience mostly lays in DA revolvers, so it'd be a bit odd for me to go that way and I'd need alot of practice and training.
 
A Super Blackhawk was my first carry piece, long before KS ever passed CC allowance, so it was my EDOC for about a decade. I remain to carry it quite often. Most of this time was spent on the ranch, where the big .44mag was used often to dispatch opportunity rabbits, deal with rattlesnakes and skunks, and manage sick cattle.

With an affinity for all things western, I do carry single action Vaqueros in 357, 44, or 45 and Single Sixes in 32H&R even as CC weapons. Over the last ~3-4yrs, I've customized a pair of Vaqueros in .44mag, a new Vaq convertible in 45acp/colt, and a Single Six 32H&R to my vision of sheriff's model revolvers. Birdshead grips, no ejectors on the New Vaq or Single Six, and stubby little barrels. Even the little Single Six is larger and heavier than my G19, which I carry much, much more often.

I spent a lot of time growing up practicing my draw with a "six gun," and continue to do so today. I competed in SASS/CAS off and on since the late 1990's where I further developed these practice techniques. In watching that video posted above, I couldn't help but laugh a few times as the presenter repeatedly tried to contrast cowboy action competition with defensive carry, then (apparently unwittingly) recounted the same techniques cowboy action shooters use. The only differential I saw was his "tactical reload of a wheelgun," where he reloaded the same chamber he just ejected - it's far faster to do a full eject then full reload, if you need 6 more, but there is merit to that "tactical reload," in a defensive situation. Simply put, doing so leaves the gun empty for the least amount of time - granted, you'll only have that one shot you've reloaded, but it happens faster than a full reload. He was incredibly slow on targets, is he any faster with an autoloader? I've gone back and forth on the most effective way to reload an SA, and I keep coming back to the proper way - abandon the shooting grip and commit to holding the pistol in the left hand - if nothing else, avoiding hot brass ejecting on your forearm is nice.

It was also distracting at 5:17 onward where he was ejecting into his holster. I noticed my focus was drawn to watching whether the next round would drop into the funnel or not, instead of watching the technique he was presenting.

I tend to prefer a cross draw carry for large pieces, either IWB at 11 o'clock, or OWB at 10. I'm a pretty fit person, and don't wear overly baggy clothes, and these two positions tend to give me the easiest concealment with ready access.

When practicing my defensive draw, I cock the hammer as the revolver comes level. In that paradigm, the only reason the firearm is coming out of leather is to be fired - I'll never be accused of brandishing in that way, for sure. I don't wait until i raise the revolver to cock the hammer, which allows me the choice to fire at a low draw position or finish raising for visually aimed fire.

If I'm running into town to the hardware store or feed store, I'm absolutely confident in my skills with a single action revolver, and the disadvantages of rate of fire and reloading become moot. When I carry elsewhere which might have more exposure, I carry a G19 or Sig P224, with 10-15rnds on deck, with a rapid reload at hand. My EDC is a Ruger LCP. I reach for a 5 shot SP101 many times over before I take out one of my Sheriff's models.

My largest personal concern in carrying a single action revolver for defense is an inadvertent partial hammer stroke. Slipping off of the hammer costs precious milliseconds, after which, it might skip around, reducing my round count before multiple ineffective dry fires to get back to that round. It's difficult to mess up a hammer stroke at a practice range or in competition, but I tend to assume it'll be much easier and I'll be much more likely to mess up when an attacker may be making physical contact.

As much as I love single action revolvers, there ARE legitimate reasons our nations fighting men converted to DA revolvers, and reasons they converted to autoloading pistols. The SA is venerable, but it does imply specific disadvantages.
 
Draw with strong hand, cock hammer with weak hand...

In a pinch you could cock with one hand.

I really like SA revolvers. You can be pretty quick with them!

We could always imagine situations where you are going to have issues. Hand to hand combat, disabled hand, etc. But, I bet we could come up with a lot of situations to theoretically render any carry setup useless.

So, when they grab my fancy, I carry them, and sometimes I don't.
 
This outfit would do nicely for special occasions such as weddings, BBQs, & fandangos...

101_3891_zpsfc995292.jpg
 
I made it a goal to develop a decently high level of realistic skill with classic SA sixguns in the late Nineties and early 21st Century, originally with plans to try some local western-oriented action-shooting competition, but then a desire to explore the real-world defensive aspects, for my own enlightenment. "Classic SA," in this context, is the Colt SAA design, and other weapons with identical operational procedures.

I do not have much time to type at the moment, but one big difference, compared to most modern weapons, is that so much of handling modern handguns is about trigger management, whereas classic SA sixgun handling is about hammer management; the trigger can break, or be removed, or be tied into the rear-most position, and the classic SA sixgun keeps functioning much as before, by "slip" shooting. The hammer, with its multiple notches, must be understood, intimately, by the shooter of the SAA, for optimal safety and operational efficiency.

At the time I was training with them, I would have felt quite well-armed carrying SAA-pattern sixguns for defense. The reality, then and now, is that any firearm I carry, for defending myself or others, must be a DA revolver or semi-automatic pistol, with which I have fired a qual. (PD rules.) Retirement, this year or next, will free me from that mandate, so it is possible I will, someday soon, consider carrying a Colt SAA, or especially a USFA Single Action, for defensive purposes, on occasion, after I have refreshed my skills. (My "tactical reload" might be a G26. ;) )
 
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I don't, but I could. My first handgun was a single six, and Blackhawks are still my favorite handguns to shoot. I have shot SA revolvers so much that cocking them no longer requires conscious thought. I generally shoot them better than DA revolvers or semiautomatics.

However, I carry DAO snubbies because they are quicker to draw, can be shot from a coat pocket, are easier to shoot one handed or while being grabbed at, etc.
 
I know a lot of people think carrying a SA revolver for self-defense is a bad idea, but I don't see why not. As with any gun, practice, and lots of it, for your CCW pistol is important. You need to train on drawing anything you'll use, you need to train with the safety on any auto with a safety, and you need to train to always cock the hammer with a SA. For police or military work where you will be charging into danger at times, you need a more modern platform. For self defense, likely against no more than one or two people, why not?

I can think of situations (described by others above as well) where it is fine, heck, maybe preferable to carry a SA. If you engage in Cowboy Action Shooting or for whatever other reason you train much more intensively with your SA than your other handguns, then maybe you should carry a SA. You should carry what you are most familiar and comfortable with.

As for reloads, that may be overblown. How many people carry reloads and how many who carry simply carry their handgun? I think most CCWers just carry the gun. Even those who do carry reloads, how many practice reloading enough for it to make a practical difference? Further, I think if I carried a SA and I wanted a reload, I'd simply carry a 2nd smaller handgun as a back up (when I carried a snub I'd often carry a 2nd snub as backup instead of dealing with speed loaders). Of course, if you really wanted to have reloads, you can always carry loose rounds in a pouch or on a speed strip and practice reloading. It would be slower than a DA revolver with a speed loader, and definitely slower than a mag change, but with practice it can be done with some speed.

That said, I don't carry a SA revolver (my only SA revolvers are blackpowder). Though, I've toyed with the idea a few times of getting a Ruger Vaquero or a SAA replica with a modern transfer bar that was small enough to carry (maybe a 3 1/2" "Sheriff's model"). When I do eventually get one, and if I practice with it enough, I can see carrying it from time to time to switch things up (with "if I practice with it enough" being the key).
 
I carried a .45 shopkeeper 3" barrel CCW for a long time. But my situation was a little different. I used Single Actions a lot for my side work/hobby so I became very proficient with them, and seeing as I had it for shows, I carried it with jacketed hollow points, instead of buying a 5 shot .38 snubbie. But I let a friend buy it off me and since then I've retired from the reenacting circuit, so I've gone back, so to speak, to what I used to carry as an LEO. But, with practice, I would again if I wanted too.
 
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