Self Defense, and not just with guns...

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David4516

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I assume that if you are a memeber here, you proably own firearms. Alot of you probably train, at least a little bit, to use those firearms in a self defense situation.

But what if you, for whatever reason, can't use a gun? Maybe you don't have it with you, or maybe you are in a situation where shooting someone might get you into more trouble than it's worth.

So here is the question: How many of you know some sort of martial art, aside from "gun-fu"? What kind of art is it? What is it about that particular fighting stlye that makes it more appealing to you than other stlyes?

I think this will be a fun topic...
 
I got lucky. I managed to stumble accross one of the best Filipino martial arts instructors around, and I ended up taking some lessons from him. Didn't know a things about martial arts (or any form of self defense) at the time, but it worked out really well. FMA is one of the most "efficient" martial arts around. ("Efficiency" being the ratio effectiveness versus time spent learning.)

To this day, my first choce, go to weapon in a sudden self defense situation would be my knife, not my 1911. I'm just more comfortable with a blade at this point.

I think the key is to find a good instructor, not to pick out the best art or style. But as I said, I got lucky, so I can't offer any advice there.

A handgun is a terrific weapon, but even the best pistolero is helpless without his pistol. Unless, of course, he has some empty-handed skills as well.
 
I guess I'll tell you about my martial art experiances while I'm on the subject... This might be a long stroy, and some people might find it boring, so I'll warn you ahead of time...

I'm a college student, and my interest in the martial arts started a couple years back when I found out that I had to take a PE class. I looked at the avilble classes, and found that I could take either Karate, TaeKwonDo, or Akido for the requirement. I decided that I should take one of these classes, instead of something like basketball or soccer. I figured I'd get more out of it. You can never be too prepared, right?

I ended up in TKD. My first choice was Karate, but it wasn't going to work out because the class times conflicted with some of my other classes. It all worked out though, because the TKD stlye being taught in this class has alot in common with Karate anyway, in fact some call it "Korean Karate" instead of TKD.

This particular stlye is called "Chung Do Kwan" (I think it means "Blue Wave Fist" or something like that). It is not the kind of TKD that you seen in the olympics. It is much more tradtional, and has much in common with Karate, as I said before. That is because the Japanese invaded Korea and Japanese Martial arts became popluar there. The modern stlyes of TKD are more of a sport where the tradtional stlyes like Chung Do Kwan are more of a "real" martial art. For example, in some styles of TKD, punching is considered "cheating" :confused:

Anyway, the basic idea behind Chung Do Kwan is to become VERY good at a few techniques instead of kinda sorta knowing a bunch of techniques. There are 15 such "basics" that everyone practices at the begining of class. Everyone from the newest newbie to the black belts works on perfecting these 15 moves. As you advance in rank, you are expected to be able to do them faster and with more control.

I decied I liked this idea. Sort of like really getting to know one handgun instead of shooting several every now and then. So I stuck with it and now I take the class just for fun. I am currently a green belt, the ranking system goes like this:

Newbie
White
Yellow
Green
Purple
Brown
Black

Newbies are technicly white belts, but I break them into two catagorys because a real white belt knows the 15 basics (and a couple other things I'll talk about latter on) and are just trying to improve upon themselves so they can advance to yellow. The "newbies" on the other hand do not know all that stuff and so they are often seperated from the rest of the class and a black or brown belt helps them learn the 15 basics while the "real" white belts and the rest of the class practice the 15 at a much faster pace...

At this point you might be thinking "wow, it takes a couple years to advance to green?". Well, it doesn't really. The reason it took me that long is I had surgery and had to take almost a year off from TKD to heal. Normally it takes about 6 to 9 months to advance to the next level. This can varry from person to person, and you need to be a brown belt for a while before you are ready to advance to black...

Anyway, while Chung Do Kwan is focused on those 15 moves, there are other things that you learn as you advance. They fall under 3 catagorys:

Forms: I think these are known as "kata" (spelling?) in Japanese, but I'm not 100% sure about that. Basicly a long series of moves that help you learn how to flow from one move to the next. They also look cool if you watch someone else do them. At first these stick pretty much to the basics, but as you advance in rank more there are a few more advanced moves that are inculed in the froms for that rank...

3 Step: 3 Steps are done in pairs. You have an "attacker" and a "defender". The attacker throws 3 punchs, and the defender blocks 3 times (thats why it's called "3 step"), and then does some sort of counter attack. Everything is planned out, so both the attacker and defender know exaclty what to expect. At the white belt level, the idea is to learn control (so you don't really hit your partner) and turst (you have to trust in your partners contol). We don't wear any protective gear, and so we don't really "hit" each other in class. The reason being because A: we are there to learn, not hurt each other and B: it helps you learn control. Some complain that it isnt' a real martial art if you don't hit people, but I dis-agree... Anyway, the higher ranks use 3 steps to learn new techniques, like sweeping for example.

I have here a picture of myself and a black belt in the middle of a 3 step:

David.txt


I have just finished my 3rd punch (I'm the one on the right), and my partner is moving in for the counter attack. Notice that he looks a little blurry (his feet in particular), this is because he was moving so fast the camera had trouble taking a clear picture...

Sparring: Like with 3 steps, you spar in pairs, and also like in 3 steps, you don't actually hit your partner (we stop just short of hitting them, and as you advance the space between your foot/fist and your partner decreases, brown belts come within about a half inch of hitting you while yellow belts give you a good 3 inches or so to be on the safe side), and you don't have any protective pads. This is why only yellow belts and above practice sparring. White belts need to learn control and haven't proven that they can spar safely untill they pass the yellow belt test. Sparring is where you put all the other skill you've learned to the test. You see if you can use them in a real fight, aginst an opponet who has some martial arts skills themselves.



I've learned that Martial arts are not only good to know for self defense reasons, but they can also be fun, and are good exersize. I would recomend learning a Martial art to just about anyone. We have all types of people in our class, guys, girls, short people, tall people, people in their teens, people in their 50s. Just about anyone can learn a martial art, it's not just for bruce lee types...

Sorry this post was so darn long. I hope that someone, somewhere out there found this interesting or helpful in some way...
 
For completely unarmed combat, learn to punch/kick. Learn to grapple. This about sums it up. My opinion, is Muy Thai is the best for kicking and striking. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best for Grappling.

Avoid Aikido or any of the super spiritual arts. Basically, any art that does not allow you to train full speed vs. a resisting partner will never be learned well enought to work in real life.
 
I don't know ka ra te, but I know cre ray zee and I will use it! :D In my opinion, if you're not the type to practice regularly, learn WWII combatives a la Fairbairn/Applegate. If you do practice regularly, I can say that the best martial art I have ever studied is Wing Chun. I currently study this 3x/week. We do everything from physical endurance tests to full contact fighting (ouch!). The great thing about this system is that it is completely straightforward but yet it contains concepts that can provide you with an edge over most opponents.

I've studied TKD extensively...I have a black belt...TKD is a very poor combat art. Previously, I probably knew about 40-50 one step, two step, and three step defensive drills. Well...TKD simply takes WAY too long to do anything to damage the opponent. In Wing Chun, before the first punch is even being retracted by the BG we've already struck blows in areas that will end a fight quickly. Wing Chun allows you to get into a position to end the fight RIGHT NOW! I've also studied Aikido. This art is wonderful for studying motion, and I'm glad to have learned some of the kinetic concepts from it. As a stand alone combat art though, I find its value questionable. Another one that I've studed is brazilian ju-jutsu. This art is great except for one gripe: they limit the things you can do on the ground. IME, BJJ practitioners cry foul when you start sticking thumbs in their eye sockets, biting, or grabbing their ears/testicles/etc.

Of course any art has its limitations. One may say that Wing Chun doesn't include groundfighting. Which is true that it isn't covered directly. But there are certain concepts which are applicable to any sort of fighting that we learn in Wing Chun. Once these concepts become muscle memory, it will help you in many different situations whether you are standing, on the ground, or sitting in your car.

My Sifu gave me some of the most valuable advice I've ever heard about martial arts: The system is just your ABCs, it is up to you as an individual to write your own story with your own creativity and skill.
 
"I think the key is to find a good instructor, not to pick out the best art or style."

I think that this one statement gives the best advice for the number of words used. You may have the "best" style but if you cannot teach people how to use it, what good is your style except to you?

One instructor once put it this way, "You may know Karate, Kung-Fu, and a whole bunch of other Asian words, but if I know 2 x 4 to the back of the head and use it first, I win.".

All THAT being said, I have settled on Ju-jitsu as being the art I study. I'm not very good and I have a few residual medical problems (one being old age) which will keep me from being the next Bruce Lee, but JJ seems offer me techniques I can use in most of the situations I can foresee.

I look for a wide variety of "types" of techniques, (avoidance, pressure points, locks, grabs, chokes, throws, kicks, punches, etc.) to try to choose what is best for the situation. If I can avoid an attack and mentally throw my attacker off his game I might be able to end it there. Or cause him some momentary pain and convince him to re-think his direction in life and I may not have to use the "death-touch" on him.

The problem I see with much of the hype around various MA schools or those "wonder" courses you see advertised is that any such physical activity needs to be a long-term commitment to really learn to the point you are able to apply what you learn. By long-term I don't mean three hours a day for the rest of your life, but a more along the lines of some regular work-out or practise to keep refining and honing your skills that fits in with your life-style. Keeping a general level of physical fitness will also help. The idea is not so much "x" amount of time, but time used well.

This became a little more philosophical and long-winded than I intended, but I hope it adds soemthing to the conversation.
 
Dan likes Wing Chun because he gets to beat on a lawyer.:D And a sarcastic, mouthy one at that!:D It's a lot more satisfying than hitting the wooden man.

[Dan, Wednesday night and Friday night next week for WCK. Have you siu lim tao'd today? On one leg? Lying down? December 6th is coming up].

Wing Chun Kuen, Seven Star Praying Mantis boxing and Qin Na here. I like the aggression of Wing Chun, the decisiveness and ferocity of mantis boxing, and the force spectrum of qin na (locking to grappling to dim mak).

Dan and I have a great Wing Chun instructor. He's inactive reserve SF (but went back in after 9/11 for 15 months). He teaches the system as combat. We study gun disarms, knife fighting, pugil stick fighting and lots of other useful stuff.

IME, I believe it is about the instructor and the student, not about the art. Look for a good teacher, not his art. [gong sounds]

It's about the footwork, THEN it's about the bling bling.:D

BTW, guns are just one aspect of fighting. Be well-rounded, learn to fight with everything--the man is the weapon!
 
El Tejon- Consider the beating on a lawyer to be a fringe benefit :D I've already ran 2 miles today, Siu Lim'ed twice, had a professional massage at Myotherapy on Main Street, and now I'm about to go see Master and Commander. :cool:
 
"Well...TKD simply takes WAY too long to do anything to damage the opponent"

I'll have to dis-agree with ya there. I'm not sure about other TKD stlyes, but in Chung Do Kwan at least, we study a number of techniques that can end a fight in a single blow. A good, solid, fast reverse punch to the solar plexus or roundhouse kick to the back of the head will convince the bad guy to stop picking on you ;) sure these are simple moves that even the white blets know, but they will work...

Another one of my favs is called "chicken arm break". Basicly you break the bad guys arm as he punches at you, and you can do this VERY quickly. You are also left in a good postion to follow up with a quick jab or reverse punch...

Anyway, my point is that even a basic punch or kick, when well executed, can stop your attacker in his tracks...
 
Yee Ji Jann Chyh/Yee Ji Ao Chyh ("Wild Chicken Spreads Its Wings or Wild Chicken Breaks Its Wings"). Some of my fave qin na moves off a punch as well (well, Two Children Worship is cool as well, but so are lot of other techniques). Great minds must think alike!

Was not aware TKD was using qin na? Learn stuff everyday. Whose system are you studying?

As to strikes, as wise man in Tejas say, punch and kicks like bullets like medicine don't always work.:eek:
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again,:) if you aren't intergrating unarmed skills in your defensive repitiore, you are setting yourself up for failure. The nature of violent encounters in the real world is that they are close, brutal, vicous and short. If you think that you will access a defensive tool when faced with immediate, violent, overwhelming personal aggression; the only reason you will not die is because the aggressor chooses to let you live. You absolutley must have unarmed skills to allow you to create the time &/or distance to access your tools (gun, knife, OC, stick, whatever).

Things to look for when evaluating unarmed skills programs/teachers:

Aggressive/combative mindset
-combat is 90% mindset

Simple, nondiagnostic, multipurpose tools
-your toolbox must be small, strong, flexible & familiar

Simple, clear targeting
-NOT "triple-warmer point 17 with the extended knuckle of the Yang hand", but rather "palm-heel to head"

How real do the events being trained for appear?
-anything can work at 1/2 speed in a dojo

Do they address what to do when everything mucks up?
-You failed to perform Task Number 23 (super, duper ninja block against the incoming fist of death) and you got clocked. What do you do?

Also, how does it interface with your other training?
-shooting, unarmed, knife, stick, etc....

[None of the foregoing should be seen as an attack on any art/style/system. Just some questions to ask yourself/ concepts to be aware of.]
 
I'll have to dis-agree with ya there. I'm not sure about other TKD stlyes, but in Chung Do Kwan at least, we study a number of techniques that can end a fight in a single blow. A good, solid, fast reverse punch to the solar plexus or roundhouse kick to the back of the head will convince the bad guy to stop picking on you sure these are simple moves that even the white blets know, but they will work...
Be careful where you go with this. Relying on one punch to end a fight is alot like relying on one bullet to end the fight. You've gotta be either very lucky or very good and usually both. I'm an advocate of pummeling them into the dirt as well as shooting them into the ground.
Another one of my favs is called "chicken arm break". Basicly you break the bad guys arm as he punches at you, and you can do this VERY quickly.
Well, you better do it quickly :) . I've had really bad luck trying to apply those sorta moves against a partner who's actually trying to ring my bell.

HTH, is definitely important, probably more important for civilians than shooting skills since we're likely to need to appy our HTH skills to create an opportunity to shoot. It's unfortunate that so many people ignore this and think that just having the gun is enough.
 
Whether you carry a gun or not it is of crucial importance to learn various armed and unarmed techniques to allow you to survive the first few moments of an attack. Remember, none of us is out looking for trouble. All of us should avoid a fight whenever possible. Everyone must understand that you are not sparring or even fighting when the SHTF - you are fighting for your life i.e. in combat. The gun/knife/stick/technique is a tool and if you get fixated on the tool you will be in dire trouble when the tool don't work (all tools fail at some time) so you had better have enough tools in the ol tool box to grab another in a hurry and get the job done.

I started out in commercial TKD, but also pracitced Hap Ki Do at the same time. Eventually I gave up TKD altogether and concentrated on HKD. Fenced in college. Western knife fighting training from various sources. I studied a little Ti Chi Chuan (too touchy-feely of an instructor at the time, but opened my eyes up to some great energy use), Wah Lum Kung Fu (too low a style for 3 knee surgeries, but also opened my mind to using the whole body and non-linear motion) and then discoverd JKD, Escrima, and Kali (WOW did that open my mind). I now study with a Chinese Boxing teacher that is a prison guard that spent 12 years working max at Brushy (what a hellish lab, but his students are the beneficiaries of his experience). I'm too old to be interested in form or tournaments. I've had my training save my butt 3 times (no gun on hand [nor time to deploy]and never pulled my knives) and want to be sure that as I slow down and slip into my dotage:D that anyone that tries to prey on me or mine finds a nasty surprise (or better yet gets an uneasy feeling about the fat old man with the cane and moves on for easier prey).

The point is, if you carry a gun you may not be given the time to deploy the weapon to try to address a threat and you had better have something better to do than scrabble for that precious gun while your attacker compresses your chest with each blow from the knife in his hand.
 
I don't practice unarmed stuff all the time (about once or twice a month), so I do WWII Combatives. It's simple, it works, and it has increased my confidence in my unarmed combat abilities greatly.
 
san0, as THR member Chris Rhines sez, "hit them with something heavy, like a building or the earth."

Ahhh, you got me there.

:D

If you can toss 'em under that falling piano then that oughta work. Better yet, if you need a one-hit fight ender, try a Buick.
 
David4516, I am happy for you that you are excited about your new art. You seem enthusiastic and determined. However, as a green belt, you really don't even know what you don't know at this point. Ya, it is possible to knock someone out with one punch. I just might be President someday. But, don't count on either.

People don't attack like you train in three step sparring. I know it is just a drill. It reinforces some positive and some negative habits at the same time.

Regarding your picture, you are leaning forward a bit and craning your neck forward too much. It does not look like you have good connection to the ground through your hips. The so-called black belts technique looks worse. His draw hand is loose and low. His distance is all wrong too.

This obscure version of TKD is better than watching or bowling. However, don't expect to hold your own against a boxer, kickboxer, high school wrestler, or Judo guy.

It is a man made system with flaws. Some systems have more flaws than others. Find the ones with the least number.
 
About biting, eye gouging, ect... during groundfighting:

1. If you are not a trained grappler, do not think about it. Because these things do not stop the fight on the ground. A brazilian jiu jitsu guy will decide to break your arm instead of just choke you out. If it hurts bad enough, he will break both of them and you will need help just to take a pee. Biting will not stop your opponent. It is a painful annoyance you will pay for later.

2. If you are a trained grappler and have a basic groundfighting game, you can bite to create some movement in your opponent to help escape a hold or setup an attack. Biting keeps the game moving if things get stalled. (If there were biting in the UFC, you would not see people laying on each other for minutes on end).

Biting does change the way the ground game is fought. It will make it more dynamic and prevent people from holding on and stalling. But, I would not use it if I were fighting a trained grappler and I had no ground game. I like my arms and legs too much.
 
dave3006:

"You seem enthusiastic and determined. However, as a green belt, you really don't even know what you don't know at this point."

Sure I do. I know that compared to most martial artists, I know squat. I know that there are plenty of people out there who could kick my butt and I'd never see it coming. But I also know that I have already learned much, and am much better off than I was before I took an interest in martial arts...

"Ya, it is possible to knock someone out with one punch. I just might be President someday. But, don't count on either."

I never said knock them out with one punch. There is a differance between taking the fight out of somebody and knocking them out...

"Regarding your picture, you are leaning forward a bit and craning your neck forward too much"

I had not noticed that, thanks. It's just one of many things I'll need to improve on. I've still got a long way to go before I'm good at this...

"The so-called black belts technique looks worse. His draw hand is loose and low. His distance is all wrong too. "

Actually he is doing this correctly. His distance looks kinda funny because he's stepping into the attack. I wish I had a pic of his final postion so you could see where he's going with this, it would help clear things up...

"This obscure version of TKD is better than watching or bowling. However, don't expect to hold your own against a boxer, kickboxer, high school wrestler, or Judo guy."

The reason I started this thread was to share with the people here what it is that I'm learning, and to see what they are learning. I'm not trying to convice anyone to drop whatever they are doing to learn TKD. And I don't expect you to think that this sub-stlye to TKD is a great martial art. But I do find this last remark of yours a to be a bit rude.

El Tejon:

"Was not aware TKD was using qin na? Learn stuff everyday. Whose system are you studying?"

It's called Chung Do Kwan, it is mainly traditional TKD with some other stuff mixed in, most noticably Karate. It was brought to the USA in the 1960s by a guy named Master Son. I think he is currently in NewYork. I guess he wrote a book that is suposed to be pretty good, but I have not read it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0135168155/102-0116166-7812965?v=glance
 
The fact that my remark seemed rude should be a point of concern for you. The remark was true. I would rather your feelings get hurt than your body.

Boxers and kickboxers are better fighters that karate people because their training is more realistic. They are used to getting hit. Hit hard. The kickboxers low kicks are better than anything you have seen in TKD.

Jiu Jitsu people and submission grapplers train full speed against a resisting partner to the point of submission. If they want the fight to go to the ground, there is very little you can do to stop them.

I am not saying the TKD is worthless. I would say that a person needs to know the limitations of his training and the myths assocaited with it.
 
Dave, of course, has visited your school and knows how low kicks are performed there. He has also visited enough of your classes to know that your classes do not, in addition to 3-steps, practice full-speed.
Right, Dave? ;)

ALL systems have their weaknesses. Each and every one. No exceptions. None.

I'm not even a TKD green belt, but I do know that the way the black belts move at the local school is something I want to be able to do. I also know there's absolutely no reason I can't deliver low kicks with heavy follow-through using the shin--just because TKD doesn't teach it, doesn't mean I've cut myself off from it by studying TKD.

In my opinion, Muay Thai has its weaknesses as well. People talk about TKD being a "sport style" and forget that Muay Thai is also a sport. Now, Muay Thai is a more brutal sport than TKD, but that is only an advantage in situations requiring brutality. It doesn't mean MT GOOD, TKD BAD. In my humble opinion, Muay Thai is a great system that I'd like to study someday, but it places too much emphasis on destroying the enemy at any cost. I see a lot of closing when you could be escaping. That makes a ton of sense when you're in a boxing ring facing a very dangerous opponent and can only win by beating him up, but when your main concern is getting home in one piece it falls short.

Study what you want to study and take the best from it. When you are really, truly good at it, move on to something else and try to shore up any remaining weaknesses. As long as you work hard and keep a clear idea of what your goals are, you'll be fine.

Guns snobs are bad enough, folks, but let's not be Punch Snobs. Geez. Did anyone even bother to ask whether Dave even HAS a Muay Thai gym or a place to study BJJ? Do you suppose that might have influenced his decision?

I know it made the decision for me. When I decided I wanted to study a martial art, I found three options. I could study Aikido, study Shorin-Ryu karate with an instructor I'd been warned was a little crooked, or try TKD with an instructor I'd never heard of. I visited the TKD place and found that the instructor, though confined to a wheelchair, was a good, no-nonsense instructor who was really taking the time to make sure everyone understood him, but coddling no one. I saw that he was willing to modify techniques to fit the objective and the person, and to teach things that weren't part of his art's orthodoxy if he thought they were important. I took a chance on him and was right to do it. His art was not my first choice, but his school was.
And it was through the school that I met a fellow student who trained at home on Sundays with a friend who's fairly advanced in Kajukenbo and BJJ. I fell in with them and learned a bit of both. . . . full speed. . . . against full resistance. . . . in a sweltering garage. Would never have been possible if I hadn't taken a chance on a good TKD school.

Now, I could have said "Nobody teaches the flavor of the month in this little town, so forget it." Or, I could have tried to drive four hours a night on the few evenings I have off from my second job so I could go to St. Louis to train in BJJ or Krav Maga. But for me, in my situation, I don't think either would have worked out nearly as well as what I did.

(Whatever you do, don't go broke, get a second job and adopt twin boys. That'll put you out of training for awhile, believe me!)

Finally, I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers with this, but don't ever believe anyone who says something like "don't expect that you can ever beat a wrestler if you study TKD." That's just plain silly. I've known high school wrestlers who could tie me in knots, and I've met some who couldn't control me--and that was under wrestling rules. I wasn't punching them, using my knees, or anything else. I find it particularly silly that TKD supposedly eliminates some effective techniques for the sake of sport, so it's bad, but wrestling eliminates some effective techniques for the sake of sport, so it's good. How does that work?
 
I'm sorry, dave3006, but a lot of what you've posted is, in my experience, BS. If a groundfighter wants you on the ground, that does not mean that you are going to be on the ground, especially if you are an experienced fighter as well, it doesn't always even make it likely. And, biting, eye gouging, testicle-crushing, ear-ripping, and fishhooking are excellent tactics in real, down and dirty fighting. They cause a lot of pain, which usually distracts your opponent, and can take out one or more of their senses. Which would you rather be, the guy with a broken arm, or the blind guy who can no longer reproduce because his eyes and reproductive organs have been ripped out/crushed?

Whatever fighting style you choose, make sure that it meshes well with your armed training if you go about your daily business armed. Otherwise you could put yourself in a situation where your attacker gets control of your weapons, a bad thing indeed.
 
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