Hand to Hand Combat

[PaladinX13]

Your first point is irrelevant since I was talking about you using an MMA champion as an attempt to garner credibility. If it's true that street fights go to the ground, then let's talk about street fights instead of distracting us with notions of validity because of what a sport champion does. I'm making the scope more specific by even getting away from the street fight but thinking defense. Why is anyone taking me to the ground? A criminal- like a mugger or thief- no more wants to go there or be there than I. We've already taken bar fights and chest thumping out of the equation, so why exactly am I being taken down? So far the only example you've provided comes from testosterone, alcohol, and anger fueled fight. We should be better than that and able to side step conflicts like that.

Can you name a safe proving ground that's any closer to a one on one street fight? The Army and Marine Corps disagree with your notion because their current fighting styles pretty much mirror MMA.

Can you give me a likelihood of getting into a street-fight that justifies the level of training required to excel at it? I'm not interested in street-fighting. I want to be able to defend myself. The fact that you mention the Army and Marine Corps just proves my point. They're NOT "most people" and don't deal with our day to day "most cases", they're a specialized group of individuals dealing with a specialized threat. Here again, is your attempt to glean authority from someone else. Talk about defense of you and I with regards to how much time we have and what threats we face, not compared to a MMA Champion with nothing but time and no threat or a solider with less time to train in H2H but a greater need than you or I. This is poor logic that dictates we all ought to use Government Issue firearms (and training) because US Soldiers do.

That said, even if military training is best, I think it's a far cry from sport MMA except in the loosest sense. Using the word "MMA" like that is really no better than leaving the "mixed" off of it.

That doesn't make their fighting style any less effective. They still possess their skills whether in ring or walking down the street. Or are you saying that Joe Schmo off the street has a better chance of fending off the typical mugger than Chuck Liddell & company?

If "Joe Schmo" took a serious threat assessment at his lifestyle, risk profile, and resources available to spend on training, I'd absolutely pick "Joe Schmo" over the Iceman in not just a mugging but a multitude of defensive situations.

Joe will run when it suits him. Joe will draw and get the mugger to go away. Joe will shoot if he has to. Joe will fight if he has to. Notice these things dwindle in probability so Joe trained first and foremost to be conditioned so he wouldn't be a target, then trained to use his weapons because no one is going after him without an advantage (size, numbers, or weapons). Finally some time is spent on a highly specialized case.

Meanwhile, The Iceman is a champ with pride and anger issues. He doesn't run from slights and gets into unnecessary fights. No one's going to attack him unless they have a size, number, or weapon advantage at which point, they really do have the jump on Chuck.

I'm not telling you not to train in grappling. I'm not telling you it's useless. I AM saying that you do yourself or those you advise a disservice if you overstate the utility of training that is really very very specific for most people. Most people do not get into street fights. Most people don't have to physically man-handle other people whether in their occupation or day to day life. Most people don't have the time to train to a level sufficient to justify the cost (in defensive terms; certainly not enjoyment or conditioning or chest-beating confidence, apparently). The reason we believe in guns is because they're a great equalizer that makes even a 80lbs grandmother an equal or greater match for any Chuck Liddell... because we're intelligent tool users, not mindless brutes.

To sum up, talk about the subject as it relates to us, not people who's sport, occupation, or resources reflect a whole different world. Assess the reality of your situation to maximize the training you actually do instead of relying on statistics which are meaningless to your sample size of one.

btw, I'm not sure you could have picked a worse example! Chuck Liddell is an infamous striker, not grappler! But it goes further to prove the point that "MMA" isn't a style by far, it's really just talent athletes all doing what works best for them.

 

[chipp]

<1 - Your leg grabbed because the kick is high and slow enough to easily grab 2 - Bowled over (how hard can you push and keep your balance when you're on one leg, I bet it isn't hard enough to stop a 5'3" 125 lbs guy that wants to knock your block off) 3 - The person will "shuck" the kick to the right or the left and knock you off balance.)

Thats odd, I've never had this happen.

I ageed that most Tkd isn't helpful on the street. Don't want to spar on the computer.

you don't now...I might roll 3 times fake a flip and then throw the kick...then what could you do?

 

[travellingJeff]

MMA

I think that another thread in this forum, about someone being caught "Flat footed" really shows that it's critical to have close quarters unarmed combat skills. As a prior-service infantryman in the USMC and a 7 year martial artist, I can offer some input into this.

First off, you have to be in shape to fight. It's just that simple, those fancy joint locks and throws don't work if you don't have the juice to put behind them. Same with striking moves, if you don't have the basic muscular power to hit something hard, you won't do much damage.

Second, you have to know how to fight. This is, of course, where the hours and hours of debate comes in to play. I've boxed since I was 16 (10 years now...), taken karate, sport ju-juitsu, muay thai kickboxing, the LINE fighting in the Corps and a system based on Krav Maga. If I had to make commentary based on that, I'd say that most asian martial arts that you learn at your local aerobics center are great for learning how to stretch and MAYBE building reflexes, but not very useful in real world situations. Combat based classes (LINE/Krav Maga/FIGHT), combined with a fitness program that involves lots of flexibility training (karate, TKD, even ju juitsu) and a good stand up class (boxing) seems to be the best system that I know of.

It's amazing how many 5 or more year veterans of martial arts would come into our boxing gym and want to spar, first day out. Well, their cute little sport moves that got them points in the dojo just got them a hard tap on the jaw in the boxing gym. I can't speak highly enough for boxing as part of your training. How many karate "masters" have actually really spent a few minutes doing bag work? My old TKD sensi came to my house and rolled his wrist on his FIRST hit into a 75lb heavy bag.... imagine if it had been his first street fight and he did that! When your coach makes you do 5 4-minute rounds on the heavy bag, punching fast and hard, real properly executed punches not simple "arm punches", you develop technique and power. When you get in the ring with someone who's a better fighter than you, you develop the ability to take a good hit in the face or stomach and keep on fighting. Dancing around and blabbering in Korean just quite simply does NOT do that for you.

So, combat fighting to learn the REAL stuff (i.e. in boxing I never learned how to really DEFEND myself against a street fighter, or three people, or someone sticking a gun in my back), karate or muay thai to get flexible and improve your reflexes, boxing to get your technique down and toughen up. I also do yoga every morning, something I recommend as well.

Thats about my input on it. I don't mean to disrespect anyones system or whatever, but you should be able to objectively analyze your fighting syle that is being taught to you. If you've NEVER done any full-contact fighting or had 1:1 instruction on how to REALLY deliver a hit, you need torealize that, while you may be getting a nice workout and meeting some cool people, that just won't help out that much when it comes down to it. Find a boxing gym or a REALLY well put together martial arts class. If you aren't sore after your classes, if you don't know what a bruised rib is or what it feels like to have your joints manipulated into REAL pain compliance, it's just kiddy play... might as well watch the power rangers and dance around like my nephew does.

 

[SniperStraz]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu mixed with a little Muy Thai. I've seen my share of MMA tournys and BJJ+MT always win. I'm a wrestler myself and I've thrown in some BJJ Aikido and Krav Maga. I suggest you stay away from Aikido.

 

[Soap]

Chipp,

Thats odd, I've never had this happen.

Maybe you've never tried it against a highly motivated opponent then.

I ageed that most Tkd isn't helpful on the street. Don't want to spar on the computer.

I'll tell you what, if you're ever in my area I'll let you try to push kick me in the midsection whilst drawing a red gun from your ideal distance (probably slightly shorter than the length of your leg) and we'll see if I can run you over by simply advancing forcefully. No magic here, we could reverse roles and you'd bowl me over every time if I was standing on one leg. Then we can go drink beer Seriously, try it with a partner, you'll see how easy it is to counter a push kick that is thrown that high.

you don't now...I might roll 3 times fake a flip and then throw the kick...then what could you do?

Then I'd throw the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoryuken

 

[Eyesac]

Paladin, you are a very articulate person. Call me easliy swayed but I have changed my views on the subject because of you.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

A criminal- like a mugger or thief- no more wants to go there or be there than I.

That's your opinion, of course I'd be willing to bet that there are victims who would say otherwise. The BTK Killer disagrees with you as well.

We've already taken bar fights and chest thumping out of the equation

Why is that? Those "bar fights and chest thumping" often happen the exact same way as muggings, with only the motive being different.

so why exactly am I being taken down?

That could very well be your attacker's method of choice. Plus women have to worry about rapists.

So far the only example you've provided comes from testosterone, alcohol, and anger fueled fight.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I93_0074.htm
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E4D6123AF930A35750C0A962958260
http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...streets_need_more_police_to_deter_muggers.php
http://www.amcostarica.com/010302.htm
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/localnews/display.var.1157761.0.mugger_steals_womans_hearing_aids.php

Can you give me a likelihood of getting into a street-fight that justifies the level of training required to excel at it?

Can you give me a likelihood of getting into a gun-fight that justifies the level of training required to excel at it?

That said, even if military training is best, I think it's a far cry from sport MMA except in the loosest sense.

Well, I've been through MCMAP and training for MMA is the closest thing out there. Watching one of our full contact sparring sessions was just like watching an MMA fight.

Meanwhile, The Iceman is a champ with pride and anger issues.

Do you know this for a fact or are you just assuming?

btw, I'm not sure you could have picked a worse example! Chuck Liddell is an infamous striker, not grappler!

Actually I picked him as an example to see whether or not you know what you're talking about when it comes to MMA and you just informed me that you don't. Liddell has stated several times that his grappling background (he was a collegiate level wrestler and has a purple belt in BJJ) is what allows him to strike.

 

[PaladinX13]

What I see is a continual disconnect from reality.

- You have a larger armed male predator who selects female prey who don't resist. Situational awareness, threat assessment, and a defensive mentality would have gotten those women further than training in grappling. Not to mention help them in other situations as diverse as defensive driving, as opposed to a highly specific and extraordinarily rare circumstance.

- If you can't side-step a bar-fight....

- Are you purporting that learning grappling is a more effective path for women against larger rapists than guns or weapons? That's the classic anti myth. Women should simply empower themselves by learning kung-fu and we can live in a world without guns.

- Still every example you provide do not show a criminal WANTING to go to the ground, nor demonstrating victims with the time, inclination, or the reasonable expectation on returns for their training. The grandmother should train in MMA rather than pack heat? Riiight.

- Likelihood vs. efficacy - It's unlikely that I'll get into a gunfight or a street-fight, but the returns on training in terms of efficacy is dramatically greater with firearms than MMA, much less just a specific grappling discipline.

- Chest thump all you like, you're still not supporting your arguments.

 

[travellingJeff]

A few things I forgot...

First off, always carry a knife or two. A famous MMA guy that I trained with before, for a while, said he was more scared of a knife than a gun in close quarters. I carry an Emerson Commander, a custom neck knife and my leatherman wave. I never use the Emerson to cut anything, I know it's nice and sharp. If someone gets me in a rear naked choke, which I find improbable, I'll consider that a threat on my life and I'm gonna grab the blade and skin his arm down to the bone. I don't get in fights unless I'm provoked, so I'm not too worried about a use of force issue. I also carry my P229 damn near everywhere I go, so if I got into a 3:1 situation, I'd deal with them. Most likely, though, if I were outnumbered I'd just go with the blade, unless the other guys were armed with something worrisome.

Next, to CannibalCrowley, Chuck is appreciate of his his ground fighting history, but mainly because he knows how ground fighters think. Thats why he always drops back on one leg and pushes himself (And his opponent) back up after they go in for a take down, he just knows whats going to happen. If Chuck gets in a real fight, again I know this personally, he'd just break the other guys jaw in and let him get a worms eye view of the sky.

Also, I don't think that it's that critical to be a master of grappling. How many other martial artists are gonna be out there starting fights? Most guys that I know that are REALLY skilled, I'm talking top-of-their-class fighters, don't go around starting fights with "civilians". Sure, they'll get drunk and break each others faces in a bar some, but thats just playing around. If some thug, hoodlum or drunk starts a fight with you, basic ground skills should be all you need. Odds are your average bar drunk isn't gonna be trying to get you in guard or mount you. As long as you know more than the average guy, you'll be fine. If you really get your kicks doing grappling, by all means, become a master of it, nothing lost by doing so, but don't forgo your bag working imagining that a Gracie master is hunting for you in the nights to choke you to death.

Just my two cents...

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

the stopper

has seemed to be can you survive getting hit mentally more than physicallly. not everyone can get up after getting nailed and first time is hardest

 

[Stretchman]

I read one of this guy's books. Beofre you laugh too hard, I studied organized martial arts for some years, but books taught me the reasoning behind the training, so to speak. If I had to use something, and I didn't want to spend my entire life training, I'd think like this.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/marcmacyoung.html

The point he consistently makes is to end the conflict. End it, period. Don't fight. No Marques de Queensbury. End it.

Like this thread.

 

[innerpiece]

cannibal, you are apparently the resident "guru" of all things combat...

however, tome you appear to lack simple things such as experience, and knowledge of things you speak..

perhaps yore encounter of a WC school was one of the "many" "McDojos" as you quote.. FYI, it is common practice to learn basic forms, and the fundimentals, long before full force sparring... this is applicable in EVERY style of fighting, that is taught properly.. otherwise people get HURT BADLY learning....

BruceLee was far more than an actor, apparently youre knowledge on this topic extend NO farhter than movies... JetLi is also far more than an actor.. mabey you should do some research outside of movies sometime...


but since you want to make youre self appear as the all knowing source.. Id be interested in hearing about youre actual training of ANY of the various styles, their history, and application...
youre experienced enuff to critisize people whom ARE experienced in these styles... you MUST have EXP youreself... right?

please share.

so far, your only argument, has been argument.. Nothing offerd.

ip.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

has seemed to be can you survive getting hit mentally more than physicallly. not everyone can get up after getting nailed and first time is hardest

Of course that's something which can only be learned by experiencing it during full contact sparring or waiting until it's too late.

Odds are your average bar drunk isn't gonna be trying to get you in guard or mount you.

Guard, no. Mount, I've seen it happen plenty of times. Heck, even little kids know enough to mount an opponent and then follow up with strikes.

If you can't side-step a bar-fight....

Only a fool thinks he can sidestep them all.

Are you purporting that learning grappling is a more effective path for women against larger rapists than guns or weapons? That's the classic anti myth. Women should simply empower themselves by learning kung-fu and we can live in a world without guns.

I never said that. Not all women can legally carry and effective weapon. Furthermore, a grappling attack has a high probability of preventing her from drawing said weapon.

Still every example you provide do not show a criminal WANTING to go to the ground

Did you even read? I'll make it easy for you and display the pertinent parts here.

"witnessed plaintiff McCummings rummaging through [the victim's] pockets as another mugger held him down in a choke hold"

a 19-year-old man was stepping off a bus at the King Street Station when a mugger punched him in the face, demanded his wallet and wrestled him to the ground.


he wrestled her to the ground


the woman struggled with her attacker until she was wrestled to the ground.

Likelihood vs. efficacy - It's unlikely that I'll get into a gunfight or a street-fight, but the returns on training in terms of efficacy is dramatically greater with firearms than MMA, much less just a specific grappling discipline.

It's much more likely that the average person will be in a streetfight than a gunfight. As for efficacy, losing either one can put a person in the morgue.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Meanwhile, The Iceman is a champ with pride and anger issues. He doesn't run from slights and gets into unnecessary fights.

You and Chuck are good friends, are you?

Chuck Liddell is an excellent grappler, by the way, which is why he's so hard to take down and so impossible to keep down. The only guy who's really been a threat to Liddell in the past few years has been Randy Couture, who not coincidentally specializes in takedowns and controlling an opponent on the ground. Even he had to strike with Chuck because Chuck's grappling allows him to choose whether he will fight standing or on the ground. He chooses to be on his feet because in the UFC, he has a bigger advantage there.

BruceLee was far more than an actor, apparently youre knowledge on this topic extend NO farhter than movies... JetLi is also far more than an actor..

Are you serious? Are you aware that you are directly contradicting Jet Li on the subject of Jet Li?
Jet Li has stated many times that he is aware that WuShu is a performance art and he practices it only for performance. He admits that he is not a real fighter and wouldn't last a minute with a pro boxer, wrestler or MMA athlete.
Bruce Lee was supposedly very good for his day, and he definitely had some good ideas. That's about all we know on that subject. He never competed at the top levels and no evidence of his supposed street fights (rooftop fights?) exists to my knowledge. The fights he did have, like the one with Wong Jack Man, are recorded only in the very widely varying memories of witnesses.


Look, clearly MMA is not a street fight. Fine, we get that. Now, kindly name a better way to train for a fight with a fully resisting opponent if not sparring against a fully resisting opponent with minimal safe ruleset? You end up with MMA or something like it. If you want to incorporate knives, fine, but you still need the basic elements of MMA--as many techniques as possible are allowed, full resistance is required--if you want to make it work. Want to add in guns? Fine, lots of skill-building drills, but the best in the world still do "Gun MMA"--full speed, force-on-force work with simunitions or the like.


You wanted the rationale for grappling on the street. Here's why I study grappling:
Simply put, if and when I am attacked on the street, I expect to be surprised, off-balance, and awkward. I therefore choose to train with an emphasis on escaping weak positions, taking strong positions, and controlling my opponent. My ideal is to be able to fight back and win after being taken by surprise and either knocked, thrown, or taken down by an assailant.

Running away, shooting and cutting are alternatives, but they don't solve everything either. I can't run away from my wife and kids. I can't carry a loaded gun in this state without committing a felony, and I can't cut some drunk at a scene who decides he's going to kick my butt.

This doesn't mean I intend to slap an omoplata on that drunk, but I do want to know that if he knocks me down and I'm flat on my back, I'm not done.

 

[innerpiece]

some people know everything... and cant be taught, nor will learn anything..

some people argue, just to have something to say....

for some people, their way, is the BEST!

 

[innerpiece]

Jet Li..lol do you know how old he was when he was champion of the Bejing WuSu team, and for how many consecutive years?
His humbleness comes from being a tibetian monk.. did you know that? or even what that consits of?
I suppose you also diddnt know that BruceLee founded JKD, and how effective that is, still to this day?
Im not here to argue on other martial artists names, just that to say something is NOT effective, especially if you dont have Exp in that feild, is ignorant.

I think there is alot in this thread that is taking it off topic, including uninformed opinion..

Some folks specialize in firarms and their application.. and some specialize in MA and their application.
perhaps, since this forum's focal point is obviously firarms, many folks here cold have less an in depth knowledge of the body and its functions?


Ive studied many arts, seperatly, and combined, since shortly after I could walk.
Im not here sayin anyone is WRONG.. but I see other folks, with less experience, saying others are...
confusing.. and quite enlightening!
ip

 

[Don Gwinn]

Also, I don't think that it's that critical to be a master of grappling. How many other martial artists are gonna be out there starting fights? Most guys that I know that are REALLY skilled, I'm talking top-of-their-class fighters, don't go around starting fights with "civilians". Sure, they'll get drunk and break each others faces in a bar some, but thats just playing around. If some thug, hoodlum or drunk starts a fight with you, basic ground skills should be all you need. Odds are your average bar drunk isn't gonna be trying to get you in guard or mount you. As long as you know more than the average guy, you'll be fine.

This is a contradiction. People swing back and forth between "all your martial arts training is useless against invincible, PCP-freaked street fighters!" and "Sure, we get beat up by other martial artists, but since we're training to fight people who aren't very good at fighting, that's OK." You can't have it both ways.

Also, if you don't train grappling seriously, it's VERY doubtful that you have "basic ground skills." If you haven't done at least high school wrestling, and recently at that, you probably don't have "basic ground skills." I would define basic ground skills as the ability to move well on the ground, use your weight correctly, base correctly, strike effectively on the ground and have at least one basic submission you can pull off against a real opponent--keylocks are good.
No, you don't need to know the difference between spider guard and rubber guard to beat the average drunk (probably) but "basic ground skills" and "don't bother training grappling" does not compute. You can't have one without the other!


Finally, don't place too much confidence in the "too deadly" stuff--biting, eye pokes, groin ripping and striking, etc. Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun is famous for this--"Well, you MMA guys don't train for the STREET! On the street I'd rip your ears off and poke your eyes out!"

These kinds of "dirty tricks" are desperation moves for most people, and if you've ever tried to pull them off when someone who knows what he's doing is in a dominant position, you're in for a surprise. Moreover, that guy in the dominant position can do all that dirty stuff, too--except that he's in the dominant position, so he can do it a lot better. Therefore, spend at least some of your time training to take the dominant positions if you're serious.

 

[Don Gwinn]

et Li..lol do you know how old he was when he was champion of the Bejing WuSu team, and for how many consecutive years?

It's very impressive to be the champion of WuShu in Beijing, as impressive as any other dominant athletic performance, but it is NOT FIGHTING. You might as well say he was a champion swimmer.

WuShu is a demonstration art. It is NOT trained as a fighting art in China. Period. China does have opportunities in actual combat sports, such as San Da, which Jet Li could have competed in, but he did not. Wu Shu was developed within the last 50 years or so at the direction of the Chinese Communist government, which wanted to keep the cultural benefits of kung fu practice and demonstrations but had driven out or killed a lot of the masters and teachers of various kung fu styles and had no wish to encourage the remaining ones to teach civilians to fight.
Being a WuShu champion has nothing to do with fighting ability whatsoever. Jet Li knows this. Jet Li acknowledges this. So does Jackie Chan. Why don't you?

 

[strambo]

It's ridiculous to think that one will be able to reliably use a technique that he's never practiced at full speed or on a fully resisting opponent.

Why? The most high-risk professionals in the world do not train against "fully resisting" opponents. I'm talking about military to include special operations. We/they out fight any element they come into contact with due to superior training methodology which never involves a "contest".

How do you train for a gunfight? Paintball or airsoft games angainst "fully resisting opponents?" No, you practice basic marksmanship and basic tactics slow, medium speed dry and live fire. Then you add in some more advanced tactics at a higher speed dry and live fire. Then as the "run" phase you can conduct force on force scenario training with a tool like an airsoft gun (maybe redman suits too incorporating stiking and shooting), but it is controlled and realistic. An even matched contest with rules would make for crappy force on force training in the realm of firearms.

The psychology of learning and the best way to train the subconscious for conflict is the same whether dealing with small unit military tactics, LE, civilian gunfighting, or H2H. The goal of MMA training,or any sparring is to win against one other guy under a rule set. My goal is to survive against multiple Taliban trying to kidnap me and chop my head off (like happened to the soldiers at a checkpoint in Iraq) how, would MMA training help me?

You bet what I do is "too deadly" to try in the ring. Unless a MMA practitioner is immune to a crushed throat, ruptured eardrum, broken neck, gouged eye, ripped spine, ruptured testicles (I guess they have a cup) and on and on.... These things are very effective at ENDING conflict. How can I train them into subconscious competence in a sparring match? Either I'm successful and go to prison or I'll fail because I have to hold back to avoid injuring them...that lack of injury will allow them to do the legal techniques on me and "win".

The OP was asking about the most effective methods for a violent situation. Theyt are not found in TMA where the goal is to learn that system or in MMA where the goal is to win a competition. There are many good things about TMA and MMA, I'm not criticising them.

I'd go to a DEVGROUP operative to learn how to take over a ship full of terrorists...not a 3-gun champion.

 

[innerpiece]

Ummm, actually, you have NO idea of what youre talking about..
Do you know what WuShu/WuSu means? no you dont.. do you know what KungFu means? how about Wu Kung?

for you to say WuSu, is a prefomance art, indicates to me you knowledge of the art.

I was an instructor at the Chinese ShaoLin Center in CO for 5 yrs...
I have instructed privately for 8 yrs. I have studied under many of the most reputable masters, including Dr. Yang Jwing Ming.. for 38 months.

Im the wrong person to get into an argument about Kung Fu history with, at least for one at youre level of lack of knowledge. no offence ment. but you do not know what you are talking about..

again, like Ive said, to each their own. its better to speak on experience, than opinion..
Im not here to argue with Mods, as I know if my opinion conflicts/differs much from youres, I could be banned... all Im trying to do is share my Exp, and opinion, not argue with people.
If you do some research, Id be glad to further discuss this off topic to thread conversation with you, via PM, with no ill intent.

BTW, I have talked to JetLi over a dozen times online, directly.. tho he is not the focus of this debate imo....

peace now, ip

(PS, PM sent)

 

[CannibalCrowley]

innerpeace, you really shouldn't type when you're drunk. If you're going to do so, at least take your time so that your words make sense.

for you to say WuSu, is a prefomance art, indicates to me you knowledge of the art.

From the offical site of the Beijing Wushu Team:
"Today, wushu has been organized and systematized into a formal branch of study in the performance arts by the Chinese."

 

[innerpiece]

Id expect nothing more from you. do some history searches... as youre Exp seems to be no more than that.. searches..

Id also expect nothing more than passive insults, from somone oh so experienced... eh?

mabey you diddnt know... actually you DIDDNT know, this catagorization is primarily focused on the efforts to get specific forms of WuSu into the olympics....

now, when you can speak on a subject you actually know something about, Id be happy to learn, and share with you, all day long!

Peace, ip.

(BTW, I havent drank an alcoholic Bev for nearing 15yrs)
(and when you can offer something more than argument, perhaps you could contribute to this threads meaning.)

 

[strambo]

I think a large part of the disconnect is many people haven't seen or done high end training in LE or the military. Those who have, often don't think of H2H the same way, and prepare for it differently then they do everything else. I understand the MMA/practice against a fully resisting opponent mindset completely. I've been there, done that. I just watched a 40 min DVD from a Boxer, kickboxer/MMA type 2 nights ago, I stay current with what's available.

Realistic training is conducted in 3 phases; Crawl, Walk, Run. If you see a H2H video, it will be shot from the Crawl and Walk phase perspective so you can see what is happening. Very rarely will you see an all out demo because it would be dangerous for a newbie to do that...and they wouldn't get good training value or see what is happening. People mistakenly think that it isn't "realistic" because it is slow. Well, for all the tough "fully resting opponent" talk from the MMA camp...they sure do a lot of drills slowly and I'd bet in order to avoid injury even top MMA fighters rarely go "all out" in training. If you aren't going all out, you aren't training against a fully resisting opponent.

I have done this training at full speed against someone trying to punch, kick or tackle me full speed. It was dangerous, but my parner stopped being "fully resisting" as soon as I struck, or did something that would have injured him had I not held back. If I screwed up, he kept coming and I would/could get up to a broken nose etc...

In a real situation; when is/are the opponent(s) fully resisting? In the beginning before anyone is injured, that's when. It is your strength and skill vs. their strength and skill. I hate those odds (what if they are bigger/more skilled?). So, my objective is to injure them ASAP by any means available, so then it is my strength and skill vs. and injured person. That's a lot easier.

So, how do you train this? Above, I talked about going against some one trying to attack me full speed (I didn't know what he was gonna do). I responded by trying to injure him. Since he is a partner, I stopped short of actual injury and he "acted" as if he was injured for realism. It isn't realistic for someone to be "fully resisting" after you rupture their eardrum and they cannot stand. The "Run" phase is training partners attack at full spedd and keep coming unless/until you do something that would have injured them. There is a tacit agreement: "I agree not to actually injure you....if you agree to act as if I did". There is no place in effective training for ego or competition. You are working together to learn how to destroy another human being.

I realize I am fighting against the prevailing current...there are a number of groups that train high level military and LE units who are in agreement though...that's who I learned from.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

most folks

have a hard time racheting up the level of intensity to the right level. and doing it right now. most folks find talking about it easier than doing it. i've always treated each event as a life threatening experience and reacted as such. its not pretty but i don't like getting beat.

 

[innerpiece]

here cannibal, from the same site you linked:

"Chinese wushu. Wushu is an important component of the cultural heritage of China, with a rich content that has remained untarnished over the centuries. Literally translated, "wu" is military, "shu" is art. Wushu therefore means the art of fighting, or martial art"

"To describe wushu, it is best to understand the philosophy of its teaching. Every movement must exhibit sensible combat application and aestheticism."

"Since then World Championships have taken place with 56 nations participating. Wushu is also vying for the Olympic games in the 21st century."


you obviously have more "reading" to do....

and for Don Gwinn:
"Wushu" is the correct term for all Chinese martial arts therefore kung fu and wushu were originally the same."

hope that clears a couple things up for you fellas..

If all youre going to do is SEARCH for the info you speak on, atleast search a bit more in depth..

no harm no foul.

ip