shooting dogs

[ZeSpectre]

A dog that appears aggressive gets the same MMO (Means, motive, opportunity) assessment that I give just about any other potential threat.

Used to live near a military base and at the time you could hike their nature/training trails (but you had to be unarmed to go on base). During one hike this BIG German shep comes bounding up the trail, freezes for a second, and goes completely into aggressive mode, teeth bared, growling, and starts to creep towards me.

Oh SNAP, all I've got is a 5ft oak walking staff. Well I'm just about to start swinging at the dog and another guy comes around the bend and calls the dog to him.

Me - It's a good thing you showed up.
Him - He's just a big baby, he'd never hurt anyone.
Me - That may be so but I had no way to know that so you might want to get your dog back on a leash so nobody has a misunderstanding or gets hurt.
Him - Hey it's a free f***ing country so why don't you mind your own business.
Me - I -was- minding my own business until your dog came charging along the trail.
Him - Yeah whatever (and he stalks off in a huff).

Met up with an MP friend of mine and we waited at the trailhead until that joker showed up (dog still running free off the leash in violation of clearly posted regulations).

I consider it extremely likely that I would have shot that dog if I'd been armed at the time and as it turns out I would have been justified since the guy had already been told to keep his dog off base because it had bitten someone previously.

 

[USMCDK]

You will get over it after, oh I don't know, 500 rounds a piece down at you local indoor firing range, MCgunner. Kudos to you winning the case and rabbit pellets (I mean $#!t) to those that arrested you and the law statue that made you have to go through all that rig-a-maraw

 

[Flopsy]

I'm afraid I would. This was my neighbor's dog. He moved away before anything happened. Good for him.

I took these in advance of taking any action in order to protect myself.

 

[Moonclip]

Nice doggy! But how did you take pics and point gun at same time?

 

[Flopsy]

I didn't have a gun when I took those pics. I bought my Mossy a few days later. A few days after that, the guy moved away.

Funny, that.

 

[Ruger1280]

I wouldn't hesitate - remember almost always its the owners that have made the dog that way; he(the dog) usually can't help it, but usually pays the price.

I have had to shoot several dogs in my lifetime, It has NEVER been good or fun - it just had to be. (Mostly because of stupid owners)

Sorry ...

Dave

 

[Confederate]

I think that is because any human old enough to be a threat to anything larger than a mouse knows they better cut it out when someone draws on them, and if they don't then they have made their own decision, what happens when they catch 2-10 bullets is the direct result of their own decisions, no one else's.

True, but many dogs also know what guns do. They may not know the way a gun functions, but many of them have seen the results. Also, a man with a weapon tops almost any dog in existence. Many dogs will thus not attack a man with a staff or a machete.

I had a friend who was out mending fences on a ranch one day. A cougar dropped from a nearby tree and charged him in broad daylight. He had a Dan Wesson .357 mag and dropped it with one shot. Suspicious, he sent the head to the Center for Disease Control in Denver and they confirmed it was rabid.

My father grew up in western Kentucky back before rabies shots. Bein' from the country, he recalls a man bit by a rabid dog. There's two types of rabies—ferocious and paralytic—and this guy had the former. He said that as his mind began going they tied him to a log to keep him from running off or harming someone else. If it had been a dog, they would have shot him. In fact, my dad said he lost one of his favorite hunting dogs to rabies. It was just like Old Yeller. Once it began to exhibit signs, he had to shoot it with his .22 rifle. It really did him in emotionally.

With rabies, one really shouldn't take too many chances with dogs. I live in a populated area and had two dogs come at me, both setters. They got out of a back yard and were clearly working in concert. Living in Maryland, I can't get a permit and I had no other weapon with me. After that, I bought one of these unfolding aluminum police batons. You can beat a dog to death with one of those. Also works on people.

 

[coyotehitman]

I have shot plenty of dogs, some sick, some injured, some ready to eat me. If you have prepared yourself, you'll be amazed at how fast you break leather, take aim, and double tap a threat.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Like 1911Tuner, I am an avid dog lover. I don't elevate them to human status, but my dogs are an integral part of my family.

I have Jack Russells. They are bred to hunt. The first three years we had them, we had a terrible time keeping them in our fenced yard. It wasn't until I created a literal fortress with concrete and hardware cloth staked in the ground that finally stopped them from getting loose. I cringed every time I came home and discovered they had escaped. I also was thankful that in my rural area no gun owner shot them, thinking my dogs were simply some feral pack. They look a whole lot different after running the fields looking for the groundhogs and fox around here. There are times I didn't recognize them myself.


However, if someone had shot them, I would have understood it. My wife would not have. But I would have cried, gotten mad as hell, and buried them. I also would have a chip on my shoulder for my neighbor for a long, long time.


Remember that when you shoot a dog that belongs to a family, it is often a part of that family. The fight doesn't end when you shoot that dog. My dogs aren't the type to hurt anyone. But my male Jack is very territorial, and has a tendancy to protect his home, and protect those he loves - us. The part of his pack. Its instinctual.


We own dogs because we like that about them. They protect us. We are part of their pack, their pack leaders. The owner can be a responsible pack leader, or not. In the end, if a dog attacks someone its the dog that pays the price. If someone shot my dogs when they got loose, I understood I might be recovering a corpse. If I wasn't convinced they were a threat when they got shot, I'd become enraged. That's not conducive for neighborly relations.


In the end, its all situational specific. If I had to shoot a dog, I would. But I'd make damned sure I had literally no other options.

 

[LKB3rd]

I would, under the same circumstances I would shoot a human in self defense. If I was in danger of death or great bodily harm. I actually worry more about dogs attacking children than attacking me, as I am pretty big, and not afraid of dogs generally(unless they are very large and in a full sprint towards me). If I saw a dog attacking another person, putting them in jeopardy of death or great bodily harm, I would also shoot it.

 

[Sato Ord]

First, yes, if I'm willing to defend myself, I'm willing to defend myself. I would definitely kill a dog that is a threat to me.

I've handled and trained dogs for many years. I've trained police dogs, bomb squad dogs, drug sniffing dogs, personal protection dogs, and guard dogs, as well as done a whole lot of obedience training on regular mutts. For my next project I am actually considering getting a good dog like a Belgian Shepherd and training for search and rescue.

Now that my qualifications are hanging out there I'll make a few comments.

Bulldogs, mastiffs, etc. don't respond to pain like we do. There are stories of dogs with their guts ripped out, still hanging onto bulls. It's not appropriate to use a choke chain or slip lead for training on these dogs, because if they get it in their head that there's something they want on the other side of the street, they'll just hang themselves, pulling with their own strength against the choke lead

Like so many who post about these dogs you have some things right and some wrong.

You're right, once these types of dogs get wound up pain isn't the deterrent that it is for other animals. They get an adrenalin rush and keep going. But remember, the stories of dogs with their intestines trailing behind them are retold as "stories of glory" because they were unusual in nature. Blood loss and shock are still effective tools when dealing with such an animal.

As for not being able to use choke chains, that's big news to me. I've been training such dogs effectively with choke chains and a standard six to ten foot lead for a long time. The dogs respond well and learn quickly; shame I've been doing it wrong for all of these years.

Don't mistake poor handling on the part of the dog's owner for bad behavior on the part of the dog.

I currently own a Great Dane. That's one of the mastiff breeds in reality. My dog is a sweet heart, and when I walk her she stays right beside my left knee at heel with slack in the lead. She has tried to take me for a drag once and the choke chain put an end to that quickly because I know how to use properly. She wasn't hurt by the correction, but she got the idea quickly and hasn't pulled a similar stunt.

Properly used a choke chain is a communication tool, not a punishment device. All dogs will respond to them, even Pits, Mastiffs, other Bulls, Rotties, and Dobes.

I haven't read every response so I may be saying this prematurely, but at least I haven't seen the old garbage about Pits having "jaws that lock". That is a load of nonsense. Pits and all other Bull Dogs, do not have "special locking jaws" that are configured differently than other dogs, they simply have a lot of jaw strength. When they latch on they are able to hold on, and crush bone.

Now for some basic safety concerning dogs. Dogs are territorial, if you are in their perceived territory they will defend it. This usually involves mostly display. The advice of backing away that was given wasn't bad. However, I might not shout at the dog while doing so. Dogs often take shouting as aggression and respond in kind.

Never turn and run. First, you can't outrun a dog, they are faster. Second, running can activate the hunting instinct and actually cause them to run you down and bite.

Make eye contact, but don't do it aggressively. Predators make eye contact, prey avoid it. However, don't get into a dominance game with unfamiliar dog, you might lose, especially if the dog is being territorial. Let the animal know you see him, but don't make him think you are "staring him down".

Also, it was pointed out that the dog will go for your extended hand, or a stick. That's instinct, and that instinct is used to good effect when training dogs to defend against weapons. That's why they can be trained to go for the gun in the guy's hand so easily.

If you think the dog is just posturing and will let you back away, keep your hands down. Putting your hand up is a sign of aggression and an attack could be the result of your behavior in such a case.

The biggest instance of this type of attack usually goes something like this.

Stranger: "Does your dog bite?"

Owner: "No, she's the sweetest puppy in the world."

Stranger reaches suddenly over, palm down, hand coming down from about waist high to pet the dog on top of the head.

Dog thinks this idiot is reaching down to smack her the head and bites preemptively.

Owner doesn't understand the dogs behavior and chastises causing a neurotic reaction that is later passed on to other strangers in an attempt to avoid being chastised for no goos reason. Stranger get stitches and decides that the dog is vicious.

Honestly, folks, I highly recommend that you read some books about dog behavior. They really do use sound and body language to communicate.

Try starting with a book titled "Adam's Task" by Vicki Hearne

As for drawing your weapon when threatened by a dog, that is a judgment call just like any other self defense situation. Remember, you don't have long to decide. The average dog can run at speeds in excess of 35 miles per hour; they can cross a yard or park lawn much more quickly than you might be thinking. Also, as it has been said, they are a small target as well as fast moving. If you are going to shoot, make the first one count because they just might not shy from the noise.

 

[Flopsy]

I agree that all other reasonable options should be exhausted, if possible. In my case, I had once maced the dog in my pictures when it came after me. I had also kicked it square in the face once when it charged me. It flipped on its back and then tried to flank me around the back of a car, before its owner intervened. Once, I had to beat it with a collapsible baton when it came after me. And all during, I gave it food and water (pushing it close with a stick) when its owner neglected it in order to try to get it to like me, or at least not hate me. The thing was literally determined to kill me. Finally, I bought the gun.

 

[MCgunner]

The rabies thing is a good point. I reckon it's better to err on the safe side if you don't know the dog and suspect it's feral. Otherwise, it if has a collar or I know the dog, I might just take it on with a knife and sue the owner if it chews me up. Hopefully, I can bolster my retirement income with the pain and suffering. LOL I'll take their house, take their car, whatever. I think civil suit would make a better deterrent than just killin' their dog. I'd be willing to get a few stitches at the emergency room for a couple hundred grand.

If you have prepared yourself, you'll be amazed at how fast you break leather, take aim, and double tap a threat.

That's one thing that amazed me about my incident. I carry and practice with a Kel Tec P11, a DAO pocket auto that is very accurate, but has a long 10 lb trigger (the old trigger spring, new ones are 8 lbs). I am a good DA shooter and prefer the trigger for pocket carry. I get nervous if the gun has too light or short a trigger even in a good pocket holster.

Anyway, when that dog attacked me, I had my adrenalin levels up already from trying to get the thing off my cats, I drew the gun without even thinking about it and that DA trigger felt like a 2 lb 1911 trigger, LOL! Seriously, it was almost as if the gun aimed and fired itself. I just got a flash sight picture of a front sight on fur and BOOM! It was so fast, yet it was almost like slow mo when it was happening. Guess that was the adrenalin slowing things down. I guess it was a good test of my preparation and practice, if an expensive test in the end. I never got that sort of experience out of IDPA or any other competition. In competition, you might be a bit nervous about doing well, but you still consciously think about the process. It was as if I didn't even have to think, it just happened. This is the first time in my 55 years I've ever had to fire my weapon in self defense. I pulled a .25 on a mugger with a knife once, but he ran for the hills at first sight of a gun. I shot a wounded hog once that was coming after me when I tracked him down in the brush, got some adrenalin going on that one to the point I had to sit down and stop shaking after the fact. But, this was a novel experience. I already had the gun ready and out of the leather with that hog. This dog attack, I drew and fired and didn't even have to think about it.

 

[plexreticle]

The temperament of a dog says a lot about the owner.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Honestly, folks, I highly recommend that you read some books about dog behavior.

Why? It's much easier to simply shoot something than it is to understand it...

 

[MCgunner]

I've owned a lot of dogs. I probably know as much as you about dog behavior. I've even trained retrievers. You can toss the book out the window, though, when a dog comes in your yard and starts attacking your cats and then you when you try to save 'em. IMHO, that dog NEEDED killin', owners fault or not. I have no remorse about it. I was protecting my cats and it was just a damned dog, after all. I don't think it deserved to live any more than the two cats it was attacking, or me for that matter. Don't anthropomorphize animals. That's what PETA does.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Don't anthropomorphize animals.

We aren't. We're just tired of all the ignorance and prejudice when it comes to dogs.

Here's an excerpt from the wikipedia entry on pit bulls on general misconceptions of the breed. Each and every one of these misconceptions were covered here by this very thread by people who THINK they know what they're talking about.

Misconceptions

[edit] Locking jaws
Many sources propagate the myth that pit bulls have a "locking jaw" mechanism, and that the dog cannot let go once it has bitten. This is untrue. According to Dr. I. Brisbin, a senior researcher with the Savannah River Ecology Laboratory, University of South Carolina: [37]

“ The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different from that of any breed of dog.
There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier.
”

[38]

Furthermore, the pit bulls that compete successfully in protection sports such as Schutzhund obviously do not display an inability to release their grips after biting, as releasing the decoy's sleeve on command is an integral part of scoring the competition. [39] Reports of pit bull type dogs refusing to release a bite grip is more likely a function of the breed's gameness—a willingness to engage in a task despite pain and discomfort.

A variant of the "locking jaw" story is told by Tom Skeldon, Lucas County (Ohio), dog warden, who said that an impounded pit bull that had been used in fighting started "going wild," biting at the walls of the kennel.[40] He shot the dog with a tranquilizer, and then left it for five minutes to let it pass out. When he came back the dog had indeed passed out, but not before it had leaped up and clamped its jaws on a cable used to open the door of the kennel. "Everything else was relaxed, the dog was out cold, but its jaws wouldn't let go of that cable, and he was hanging in midair," said Skeldon. "Not even a jaguar will do that."

However, an incident reported by the Associated Press suggests that other breeds may also fail to relax their jaws when they become unconscious. An Albuquerque police officer was attacked, in October 2005, by a Belgian Malinois, a dog used for herding and police work, with no significant commonality with "pit bulls." The dog bit the officer on the arm. When the officer couldn't shake free, she shot the dog, killing it. Still, other officers had to come to her aid, and pry the dead dog's jaws off the officer's arm.


[edit] Inability to feel pain
Another common misconception is that pit bulls don't feel pain. However, pit bulls have the same nervous system as any other breed, and they can and do feel pain. Historically, those dogs that would tolerate or ignore discomfort and pain and finish the task they were required to perform were the dogs that were bred and the sort of dogs breeders strove to produce. This is the trait of “gameness” that so many breed fanciers speak of, which may be defined as “The desire to continue on and/or complete a task despite pain and discomfort”. Therefore, the difficulty in deterring a pit bull from its task is in fact not an inability to feel pain but rather a desirable trait in any trained working dog. It is clearly shown in herding dogs which continue to herd despite a broken limb.


[edit] Only breed unaffected by pepper spray or other pain when attacking
Another urban myth surrounding this breed states that pit bulls are the only type of dog that are not affected by capsaicin-based dog-repellent sprays. In fact, many other dog breeds also display this resistance to pepper spray when they are attacking. Documented cases include Bull Mastiffs, Rottweilers and many German Shepherds (including Police K-9's).[41] In the words of two police officers, it is "not unusual for pepper spray not to work on dogs" [42] and "just as OC spray doesn't work on all humans, it won't work on all canines." [43]

It is also untrue that the pit bull is the only dog that will keep attacking after being sub-lethally shot. Rottweilers, Mastiffs and German Shepherds have all exhibited this capacity. [44][45]


[edit] Unpredictable
Research performed by Goodpooch.com director, the late Marjorie Darby, finds that dogs involved in attacks overwhelmingly have a known history of aggression, even though their owners may deny or minimize this fact.[46] The neighbors are usually a better source for documenting negative aspects of a dog's history than the owners are. As such, it is further evidence that dogs, including "pit bulls", don't just "turn" on their owners. A follow-up to a CDC report on dog bite fatalities came to a similar conclusion. [47]

 

[MCgunner]

Well, dog or human, you attack me, I shoot you. That's why I carry, to protect myself against attack. I'm not going to try to reason with you. I'm not going to offer you a doggy biscuit. I'm just going to put you down before you do me harm. It's that simple. You're on MY property attacking MY cats, then you won't run off, but attack ME when I try to run you off? You're dead, fido. Game over, especially since I didn't know you from a rabid stray. I really don't care about the owners or who's at fault for your behavior, you're goin' down. I won't walk onto your turf and shoot you. Do me a favor and don't walk on my turf and attack me.

 

[MarcusWendt]

Watch the dog whisperer. Don't shoot dogs... Unless it's an absolute last resort.

I'm a near middle aged guy, healthy, pretty strong. I think I'd fight first. Of course a lot depends on the type and number of dogs attacking.

If my child were with me, it would be a different story. I'd likely shoot sooner.

Still, I hate to even contemplate that scenario. I think any dog that is not secured and is the type that would attack... well, I'd rather shoot the irresponsible owner before I'd want to hurt the animal.

 

[MCgunner]

Most of the dogs I've had problems with here have no owner, feral. I did not know about this dog and he had been in my yard with a feral pack before killin' cats when I chased 'em off. None of 'em had ever attacked me before until he did.

Anyway, my cats are my kids. Well, maybe not, but when my house cat got out one night and they killed her and I found her dead a few days later mowing the back yard, that REALLY pissed me off. This feral dog stuff had been going on for a couple of years leading up to this dog attack. Yet, a few weeks before I'd run one of those people's dogs off my yard who was after my cats. He didn't attack me, I didn't shoot him.

I am not doing to mess with a dog if it attacks me, I'm sorry. I'm not a ninja, I'll just shoot if that's the only weapon I can get at, unless I happen to have a nice baseball bat or axe handy, maybe a chain saw. You can get pretty chewed up stabbin' a dog and if there's any chance of rabies, I don't think taking the risk is what I wanna do.

What is really the difference in shooting a feral dog or a coyote???? Well, the feral dogs kills to be killin'. The coyote only kills what he can eat. Yet, folks kill coyotes. I've shot a few off the deer stand, myself. I've killed a hell of a lot of animals in my day. I'm licensed by the state of Texas and the Department of the interior to do it, it's called a hunting license.

. well, I'd rather shoot the irresponsible owner before I'd want to hurt the animal.

Well, now days, laws screwed up as they are, you'd probably get probation for first degree murder. You'd get 20 years in the electric chair for shooting a dog. Guess you have a point.

 

[Flopsy]

I know a lot about dog behavior, so I don't need a preachin'. I'm a former volunteer at an animal shelter, where I worked with anti-social dogs to try to get them to a point where they were adoptable to families so they wouldn't get put down. I've put in the time, sweat, and tears just because I wanted to and never took a dime.

No amount of understanding is going to make me want to have an animal rip my throat out.

Dog was trying to kill me. Look at the pics!



Edit: And I didn't include the pics of the rawhide treat I gave it to try to calm it down, or the bowl of water I gave it because the owner left it in the hot sun without water, or the pics of it running around without a lead, etc.

 

[XDKingslayer]

MCGunner: Don't anthropomorphize animals.

MCGunner: Anyway, my cats are my kids.

And you expect me to take you seriously from this point forward? Little anti-dog are we?

 

[coyotehitman]

Nice doggy! But how did you take pics and point gun at same time?

You haven't seen the cameras that attach to a picatinny rail?

 

[MCgunner]

And you expect me to take you seriously from this point forward? Little anti-dog are we?

No, I'm not anti dog. I'm anti having dogs come in my yard and kill off every cat I get in the past 4 years. Who gives you the right to let your dog into my yard to kill my cats? You torture cats when you were a kid? That's cruelty, ya know. Why is it not cruelty to let your dogs kill my cats, but it's cruelty when I catch 'em in the act and shoot the dog when it attacks me? You got something against cats? I've never heard of a house cat killing a man. Can't say the same for dogs. I'd treat a man just like I treated that dog if he came in this yard attacking me.

 

[BullfrogKen]

And on that note . . .