Those of you who feel a .380 is underpowered for ccw, would you carry a 9X18?
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Fastcast
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Ever wonder why the entire U.S. military and law enforcement agencies across the country haven't chosen the "superior" .380/9x18 instead of the 9mm/.40/.45 as a primary issued caliber? I haven't........
Why do you insist on your same nonsense.....Who said the .380 or 9x18 were "superior" to 9mm, .40 or .45? :banghead:
My post was referring to the people who think like you. That being, the .380 or 9x18 aren't much better than sticks or spitballs.
Why do you always get involved in every thread about .380, when you have such little respect for the cartridge? Obviously, just to put down others and their choice of CCW......Get a life and please stop putting words in peoples mouths.
CZF
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I'd love to have a KEVIN or MDE (blued) in 9mm MAK.
The CZ83 MAK that I had was fun to shoot.
Recoil would be more than a MDE in .380, but add a little extra
punch.
My carry load would be the superb Hornady XTP.
As there is no MAK offering from Double Tap right now.
The CZ83 MAK that I had was fun to shoot.
Recoil would be more than a MDE in .380, but add a little extra
punch.
My carry load would be the superb Hornady XTP.
As there is no MAK offering from Double Tap right now.
bdb benzino
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We are talking about small frame CC pistols, and you are comparing them to service or military pistols.
Downhill motion detected. Please exit the thread in a calm, orderly fashion, women and children first.
Anyway, I consider .380 to be a little marginal for a "primary" carry piece, especially in something the size of a Walther PPK, which is larger and heavier than several 9x19mms on the market.
A micro .380, however, makes an excellent deep cover piece or backup. If there were micro 9x18mms, I'd consider one, though the gap is nowhere near as wide as the one between .32 and .380. .380 can't rimlock, and is 30% bigger (area, not diameter) than .32. While 9x18mm only makes a 5% bigger hole than a .380, and neither one can rimlock.
Given the marginal increase in power, the fact that micro mouseguns aren't available in 9x18, and the low cost of Kel-Tec guns, I'd have to say that, IMO, 9x18mm guns are strictly for people on very restricted budgets. Otherwise, a Kel-Tec P11 or PF9 is a better "primary" carry piece, while a P3AT is a better deep concealment or backup piece, and for not too much more money than a cheap Eastern European milsurp 9x18.
Anyway, I consider .380 to be a little marginal for a "primary" carry piece, especially in something the size of a Walther PPK, which is larger and heavier than several 9x19mms on the market.
A micro .380, however, makes an excellent deep cover piece or backup. If there were micro 9x18mms, I'd consider one, though the gap is nowhere near as wide as the one between .32 and .380. .380 can't rimlock, and is 30% bigger (area, not diameter) than .32. While 9x18mm only makes a 5% bigger hole than a .380, and neither one can rimlock.
Given the marginal increase in power, the fact that micro mouseguns aren't available in 9x18, and the low cost of Kel-Tec guns, I'd have to say that, IMO, 9x18mm guns are strictly for people on very restricted budgets. Otherwise, a Kel-Tec P11 or PF9 is a better "primary" carry piece, while a P3AT is a better deep concealment or backup piece, and for not too much more money than a cheap Eastern European milsurp 9x18.
bdb benzino
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I would not consider any Kel-Tec to be a better primary pistol than especially the real Makarov, due to the reputation of reliability of the two. I know that you can get a perfect Kel-Tec, but the reputation aspect leans with Makarov.
Fastcast
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+1......It still amazes me that people put the likes of Keltec, Taurus etc. above a real, proven police and military pistol like the Mak or the fabulous CZ-82.....LMAO
I'll take the weaker cartridge in the 9x18 pistols any day, over the likes of those mentioned with 9x19.....As I've said before....For SD, I'm not nearly as concerned about the differences between 9x17, 9x18 & 9x19 as I am the platform shooting those cartridges......To each their own, is no doubt correct!
MCgunner
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I own the Kel Tec P11, have owned it for 14 years. As far as I know, any bad rep is from the ignorant who've never played with the gun. I've never had a jam with the gun in those 14 years. I did have a stove pipe on Monarch ball with my P64 the other day. I've only had this one about 3 months. Now, I'm not worried about it. I'm just sayin'. I didn't have a good grip on the gun and I think it might have been one of those infamous "limp wrist" jams I hear about. I consider it a reliable gun, but right now, I have more faith in my ol' reliable Kel Tec and, after all, 11 rounds of 9mm +P trumps 7 rounds of 9x18. Add to that the fact that the Kel Tec is nearly as accurate as the Radom.
But, I ain't sellin' either gun. I like 'em both. I'd really been wanting a 9x18 and I stumbled upon this P64 at a Gander Mountain. I just had to have it. I'd never seen one, but it shot 9x18, so I bought it. I've learned to like it a lot, quite accurate, all steel, it's a nice little gun.
Why don't you guys all buy one of each? I mean, why not? Can you ever own too many?
bdb benzino
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Thats what I am talking about! I have wanted a P3AT for pocket carry or a BUG as its sive can not be beat!
orionengnr
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No.
With the gun choices available and the ammo choices available, to be honest, I have more use for the .380.
And as long as I own a Kahr PM9, I don't have much use for either of he other cartridges.
With the gun choices available and the ammo choices available, to be honest, I have more use for the .380.
And as long as I own a Kahr PM9, I don't have much use for either of he other cartridges.
harmon rabb
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I guess I have to agree with you here. My cz-82 is a tank.
Cards81fan
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I carry both a 9mm Luger and a .380. I am considering a 9x18 pistol (p-64) just because it's so cool (PPK-like) and cheap (less than $200).
I still don't buy the ammo cost argument, though. I have no problem finding 9mm Luger from a quality manufacturer (Monarch/Prvi Partizan, CCI Blazer/Brass, or Federal at Walmart) for 10-11 dollars a box, locally. To me, that's no more expensive than a $9 box of 9x18 after shipping.
I still don't buy the ammo cost argument, though. I have no problem finding 9mm Luger from a quality manufacturer (Monarch/Prvi Partizan, CCI Blazer/Brass, or Federal at Walmart) for 10-11 dollars a box, locally. To me, that's no more expensive than a $9 box of 9x18 after shipping.
christcorp
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The problem with this type of poll question, is that is usually brings out the worst in stereotypes in a person. The 2 worst type in the gun world.
1. "X" caliber is TOO SMALL to be effective in real life situations.
2. "Y" Rounds in the magazine or more is needed for real life situations.
While very general and broad, both of these ways of thinking are so ignorant and misguided. Usually based on a person rationalizing their own gun purchases and ownership. Forget the fact that countless law enforcement agencies around the world carried 32acp and 380acp for years. And forget the fact that people's anatomy hasn't changed over the years, making them less prone to injury and death from a 32 or 380. And forget the fact that until recent years, people defended themselves perfectly fine with a 6 shot revolver. And forget the fact that today's ammunition is much better than it was 50 years ago.
Bottom line is that all of these polls, question, stereotypes, etc... all become a moot point if you become proficient with your weapon. You are not going to make a person "MORE DEAD" with a 40sw over a 380. Dead is dead. And considering that your objective is only 1 thing...... "To Stop the Threat"; which doesn't necessarily mean that they die, then the deciding fact is..... YOU. There is plenty of 32 and 380 ammo that can penetrate 12 inches. If you practice, and are proficient, and have the right ammo, then the 32, 380, or 9mm makarov is going to be fine for self defense purposes. If you don't practice, and aren't proficient, then it doesn't matter if you have an 17 round Glock 40sw, a miss is a miss.
For years, people have quote the "FBI STANDARD" of roughly 12" of penetration. Well, now that there is 32acp, 380acp, and 9mm makarov ammo that has no problem penetrating 12", many of these people dismiss the FBI standard because it doesn't fit their agenda. Guns and calibers are very personal. There's a handful of calibers I don't want to have anything to do with. Not because they aren't effective, but because they are Niche calibers. There is nothing great about them; they are only there to make money; and they are way too expensive and rare. And because of that, I won't support them. e.g. 10mm, 357sig, 45gap, etc... I'm not saying anyone has to own a 380 or a 32 or 9mm mak. You're not wrong for "WANTING" a 45acp, 40sw, or 9mm. But anyone who says a 380 isn't good enough for self defense is wrong and doesn't know what they're talking about. Are there scenarios where such a round might be at a disadvantage, such as in the winter with real heavy coats and clothing? Yes, I agree that a 32 or 380 probably isn't the best choice. But every caliber has it's purposes and limitations. You don't shoot deer with a 22LR and you don't shoot rabbits with a 300 win mag. Spring/summer, light clothing, etc...; there's nothing wrong with a 32 or 380 or 9mm mak.
1. "X" caliber is TOO SMALL to be effective in real life situations.
2. "Y" Rounds in the magazine or more is needed for real life situations.
While very general and broad, both of these ways of thinking are so ignorant and misguided. Usually based on a person rationalizing their own gun purchases and ownership. Forget the fact that countless law enforcement agencies around the world carried 32acp and 380acp for years. And forget the fact that people's anatomy hasn't changed over the years, making them less prone to injury and death from a 32 or 380. And forget the fact that until recent years, people defended themselves perfectly fine with a 6 shot revolver. And forget the fact that today's ammunition is much better than it was 50 years ago.
Bottom line is that all of these polls, question, stereotypes, etc... all become a moot point if you become proficient with your weapon. You are not going to make a person "MORE DEAD" with a 40sw over a 380. Dead is dead. And considering that your objective is only 1 thing...... "To Stop the Threat"; which doesn't necessarily mean that they die, then the deciding fact is..... YOU. There is plenty of 32 and 380 ammo that can penetrate 12 inches. If you practice, and are proficient, and have the right ammo, then the 32, 380, or 9mm makarov is going to be fine for self defense purposes. If you don't practice, and aren't proficient, then it doesn't matter if you have an 17 round Glock 40sw, a miss is a miss.
For years, people have quote the "FBI STANDARD" of roughly 12" of penetration. Well, now that there is 32acp, 380acp, and 9mm makarov ammo that has no problem penetrating 12", many of these people dismiss the FBI standard because it doesn't fit their agenda. Guns and calibers are very personal. There's a handful of calibers I don't want to have anything to do with. Not because they aren't effective, but because they are Niche calibers. There is nothing great about them; they are only there to make money; and they are way too expensive and rare. And because of that, I won't support them. e.g. 10mm, 357sig, 45gap, etc... I'm not saying anyone has to own a 380 or a 32 or 9mm mak. You're not wrong for "WANTING" a 45acp, 40sw, or 9mm. But anyone who says a 380 isn't good enough for self defense is wrong and doesn't know what they're talking about. Are there scenarios where such a round might be at a disadvantage, such as in the winter with real heavy coats and clothing? Yes, I agree that a 32 or 380 probably isn't the best choice. But every caliber has it's purposes and limitations. You don't shoot deer with a 22LR and you don't shoot rabbits with a 300 win mag. Spring/summer, light clothing, etc...; there's nothing wrong with a 32 or 380 or 9mm mak.
David E
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The half-wit that posted this:
If 99.9% of the badguys won't have much fight left with ONE well placed shot, let alone a double tap, then that implies it's better than the 9mm/.40/.45, as I don't see too many folks, including you, saying those calibers will do the same thing.
You always ignore the fact that I have always maintained and have repeated several times that any gun with you beats any gun not. This includes the .380/9x18, .32 and even .25 acp.
You would be wise to follow your own advice. I do respect the cartridge. I respect any cartridge, as any and all of them can kill. Constant care is required when handling any gun of any caliber. .380's certainly have their place. I own 2.
As you failed to understand in the previous thread, I don't care what you carry. But I do object when a self anointed internet gun guru claims a .380 is "just as effective" as larger, more powerful calibers, if not more so. (one shot - 99.9% of badguys, etc) That's just foolish.
denfoote
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Not only would I carry Pistolet Makarova, but I DO!!
Fastcast
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Yes David, once again for the learning impaired. One well placed shot of .380 or 9x18 will kill a man dead, in short order. I've said that, NOT that they're superior.....but really, how much quicker does one actually die with an identically placed 'kill' shot of 9mm as compared to .380 or 9x18?
With handguns, shot placement is what incapacitates and kills quickly, not strictly caliber......IMO, so I guess that makes me a half-wit.
David E
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Perhaps I gave you too much credit, as even a half-wit knows that you cannot guarantee surgical shot placement when fighting for your life.
A "properly placed" knitting needle will kill, so what is your point again?
Your posts are fraught with assumptions, such as being able to attain surgical shot placement, at will, during a violent, fast moving life or death encounter.
A .380 or .45 in the right eye? Immediate incapacitation with either one.
A single .380 or .45 in the center of the chest of a charging 300 lb badguy? I think we can agree it's "well placed," but I doubt they'll have the same effect in the same time frame.
A "properly placed" knitting needle will kill, so what is your point again?
Your posts are fraught with assumptions, such as being able to attain surgical shot placement, at will, during a violent, fast moving life or death encounter.
A .380 or .45 in the right eye? Immediate incapacitation with either one.
A single .380 or .45 in the center of the chest of a charging 300 lb badguy? I think we can agree it's "well placed," but I doubt they'll have the same effect in the same time frame.
harmon rabb
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I'd say it has something to do with how the 9x18 recoils. My only 9x18 experience is my cz-82, but I note that, upon recoil, it doesn't pop up like all my 9mm's do. It pushes straight back. That can make it easier to get back on target quickly.
oldfool
Member
post #64 +1, ditto that
and a public service note for any charging 300 lb badguys, who might be listening in -
Just because it's Thursday, that is no excuse for forgetting your drugs and your machete ! Never leave home without it, because you just never know when you might run into a half-wit with a knitting needle. For those zombie grizz who "simply cannot handle" a big machete, then a large kitchen knife may do, but a smart zombie grizz knows that rule #1 is to always bring a knife to a needle fight.
and a public service note for any charging 300 lb badguys, who might be listening in -
Just because it's Thursday, that is no excuse for forgetting your drugs and your machete ! Never leave home without it, because you just never know when you might run into a half-wit with a knitting needle. For those zombie grizz who "simply cannot handle" a big machete, then a large kitchen knife may do, but a smart zombie grizz knows that rule #1 is to always bring a knife to a needle fight.
Fastcast
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+1.....but David wouldn't know this because he would never bet his life on a quick shooting, extremely accurate & reliable pistol that only fires "spitballs".
A Hi-Point 9mm to David is better than your spitball shooter 82. Why because it shoots one of the calibers he believes will stop his attacker "(a charging, 300lb, machete wielding gorilla)" instantly, just like in Hollywood.
oldfool
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no, friend David never said one shot kill, instantly
fair is as fair does
fair is as fair does
Fastcast
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Well, that's right and seeing as David loves to twist others words......A 300lb charging BG that he believes will be stopped from a .45 but not a .380, implies he would have to die instantly, does it not?
Fair is as fair does.
MCgunner
Member
Personal insults from know it all types just send a post further in the dumpster far as I'm concerned. No need to be calling people "half wits" because they don't agree with your little world of "reality" as you perceive it.
Now, no matter what you shoot, it's a POS, trust me.....
Why Your Favorite Caliber Sucks
5.7×28mm: Ingenious way to make a centerfire .22 Magnum and then charge quadruple price for the same ballistics. Awesome chambering for a police weapon…if you’re the park ranger in charge of the chipmunk exhibit at the zoo, and you want to make sure you can take one down if it turns rabid on you.
.25ACP: Direct violation of the maxim “Never do an enemy a minor injury”. Designed by folks who wanted to retain the bullet diameter of the .22 rimfire round, but take a bit of the excessive lethality out of it. Favored by people who don’t feel comfortable carrying anything more dangerous than the neighbor kid’s rusty Red Ryder pellet gun.
.32ACP: Inadequate for anything more thick-skinned than Northeastern squirrels or inbred Austrian archdukes. Semi-rimmed cartridge that is rimlock-happy in modern lightweight autoloaders. Doesn’t go fast enough to expand a hollowpoint bullet, and it wouldn’t matter even if it did, because the bullet would only expand from tiny to small-ish.
.38 Special: Legacy design with a case length that’s 75% longer than necessary for the mediocre ballistics of the round due to its blackpowder heritage. On the plus side, the case length makes it easy to handle when reloading the gun. This is a good thing because anyone using their .38 in self-defense against a 250-pound attacker hopped up on crack will need to empty the gun multiple times.
.380ACP/9mm Kurz: Designed by people who thought the 9mm Luger was a bit too brisk and snappy, which is pretty much all that needs to be said here. Great round if you expect to only ever be attacked by people less than seven inches thick from front to back.
9mm Luger: European popgun round that’s only popular because the ammo is cheap for a centerfire cartridge. Cheap ammo is a good thing for 9mm aficionados, because anything bigger and more dangerous than a cranky raccoon will likely require multiple well-placed hits. Wildly popular all over the world, mostly in countries where people don’t carry guns, and cops don’t have to actually shoot people with theirs.
.40S&W: Neutered compromise version of a compromise cartridge. Even more setback-happy than the .45ACP, and setbacks are much more dangerous because of higher pressure and smaller case volume. Manages to sacrifice both the capacity of the 9mm and the bullet diameter of the .45. Twice the recoil of the 9mm for 10% more muzzle energy.
.357SIG: Highly overpriced boutique round that does the .40S&W one worse: it manages to share the capacity penalty of the .40 while retaining the small bullet diameter of the 9mm. Noisy, sharp recoil, and 100% cost penalty for ballistics that can be matched by a good 9mm +P+ load. Penetrates like the dickens, which means that the Air Marshals just had to adopt it…only to load their guns with frangible bullets to make sure they don’t penetrate like the dickens.
.357 Magnum: Lots of recoil, muzzle blast, and noise to drive a 9mm bullet to reckless speeds in an attempt to make up for its low mass and diameter. Explosive fragmentation and insufficient penetration with light bullets; excessive penetration and insufficient expansion with heavy ones. Still makes only 9mm holes in the target.
10mm Auto: Super-high pressure cartridge that beats up gun and shooter alike. Very brisk recoil in anything other than all-steel S&W boat anchors, with a shot recovery that’s measured in geological epochs for most handgun platforms. Often underloaded to wimpy levels (see “.40 S&W”), which then gives it 9mm ballistics while requiring .45ACP magazine real estate.
.45ACP: Chunky low-pressure cartridge that hogs magazine space and requires a low-capacity design (if the gun needs to fit human hands) or a grip with the circumference of a two-liter soda bottle (if the gun needs to hold more than seven rounds). Disturbingly prone to bullet setback, expensive to reload, fits only into big and clunky guns, and a recoil that has an inversely proportionate relationship with muzzle energy.
.44 Magnum: Overpowered round that generates manageable recoil and muzzle blast…if you’re a 300-pound linebacker with wrists like steel girders. Often loaded to “Lite” levels that turn it into a noisy .44 Special while retaining the ego-preserving Magnum headstamp. Considered the “most powerful handgun cartridge in the world” by people whose gun knowledge is either stuck in 1960, or who get their expertise in ballistics from Dirty Harry movies.
Now, no matter what you shoot, it's a POS, trust me.....
Why Your Favorite Caliber Sucks
5.7×28mm: Ingenious way to make a centerfire .22 Magnum and then charge quadruple price for the same ballistics. Awesome chambering for a police weapon…if you’re the park ranger in charge of the chipmunk exhibit at the zoo, and you want to make sure you can take one down if it turns rabid on you.
.25ACP: Direct violation of the maxim “Never do an enemy a minor injury”. Designed by folks who wanted to retain the bullet diameter of the .22 rimfire round, but take a bit of the excessive lethality out of it. Favored by people who don’t feel comfortable carrying anything more dangerous than the neighbor kid’s rusty Red Ryder pellet gun.
.32ACP: Inadequate for anything more thick-skinned than Northeastern squirrels or inbred Austrian archdukes. Semi-rimmed cartridge that is rimlock-happy in modern lightweight autoloaders. Doesn’t go fast enough to expand a hollowpoint bullet, and it wouldn’t matter even if it did, because the bullet would only expand from tiny to small-ish.
.38 Special: Legacy design with a case length that’s 75% longer than necessary for the mediocre ballistics of the round due to its blackpowder heritage. On the plus side, the case length makes it easy to handle when reloading the gun. This is a good thing because anyone using their .38 in self-defense against a 250-pound attacker hopped up on crack will need to empty the gun multiple times.
.380ACP/9mm Kurz: Designed by people who thought the 9mm Luger was a bit too brisk and snappy, which is pretty much all that needs to be said here. Great round if you expect to only ever be attacked by people less than seven inches thick from front to back.
9mm Luger: European popgun round that’s only popular because the ammo is cheap for a centerfire cartridge. Cheap ammo is a good thing for 9mm aficionados, because anything bigger and more dangerous than a cranky raccoon will likely require multiple well-placed hits. Wildly popular all over the world, mostly in countries where people don’t carry guns, and cops don’t have to actually shoot people with theirs.
.40S&W: Neutered compromise version of a compromise cartridge. Even more setback-happy than the .45ACP, and setbacks are much more dangerous because of higher pressure and smaller case volume. Manages to sacrifice both the capacity of the 9mm and the bullet diameter of the .45. Twice the recoil of the 9mm for 10% more muzzle energy.
.357SIG: Highly overpriced boutique round that does the .40S&W one worse: it manages to share the capacity penalty of the .40 while retaining the small bullet diameter of the 9mm. Noisy, sharp recoil, and 100% cost penalty for ballistics that can be matched by a good 9mm +P+ load. Penetrates like the dickens, which means that the Air Marshals just had to adopt it…only to load their guns with frangible bullets to make sure they don’t penetrate like the dickens.
.357 Magnum: Lots of recoil, muzzle blast, and noise to drive a 9mm bullet to reckless speeds in an attempt to make up for its low mass and diameter. Explosive fragmentation and insufficient penetration with light bullets; excessive penetration and insufficient expansion with heavy ones. Still makes only 9mm holes in the target.
10mm Auto: Super-high pressure cartridge that beats up gun and shooter alike. Very brisk recoil in anything other than all-steel S&W boat anchors, with a shot recovery that’s measured in geological epochs for most handgun platforms. Often underloaded to wimpy levels (see “.40 S&W”), which then gives it 9mm ballistics while requiring .45ACP magazine real estate.
.45ACP: Chunky low-pressure cartridge that hogs magazine space and requires a low-capacity design (if the gun needs to fit human hands) or a grip with the circumference of a two-liter soda bottle (if the gun needs to hold more than seven rounds). Disturbingly prone to bullet setback, expensive to reload, fits only into big and clunky guns, and a recoil that has an inversely proportionate relationship with muzzle energy.
.44 Magnum: Overpowered round that generates manageable recoil and muzzle blast…if you’re a 300-pound linebacker with wrists like steel girders. Often loaded to “Lite” levels that turn it into a noisy .44 Special while retaining the ego-preserving Magnum headstamp. Considered the “most powerful handgun cartridge in the world” by people whose gun knowledge is either stuck in 1960, or who get their expertise in ballistics from Dirty Harry movies.
mljdeckard
Member
It's not the cartridge that would make the difference for me really, I just think that Makarovs are great guns.
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