Volunteers 'with heat' to support National Guard

[The Real Hawkeye]

Subculture" and "regional" are not the same things. I'll argue that there is a long established, peacefully coexisting Hispanic subculture within our borders, considered uniquely American. Tex-Mex anyone? How many "old time" cowboys were Latino? What do you need besides architecture, food, naming conventions, and history to have a "subculture"?

Ah, but then you'll make the "peaceful" claim. So since there have been issues with Mexico and Mexicans in the past, that aspect of our national history isn't a uniquely American subculture? So the "Native American" tribes that we have a violent history with are not an American subculture?

Keith, I'm sorry, but there are too many logical inconsistencies in the above for me to intelligently respond. Read what you wrote over again carefully, and then try again.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

Logical inconsistencies?

One more time. There is a large, historically established population of peacefully co-existing Americans of Mexican origin in the US, who have added their own "flavor" of life to our nation. How is that not a "subculture"?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i believe

those are the code words for punting

logical inconsistencies

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

like speaking english, putting trash in the trash can and not the side of the road

Funny you should mention this. Growing up back in the 1960s and '70s, my parents always hired illegal aliens to live at the house and provide maid service. Many of them became almost like family to me, and that's how I picked up a little Spanish. One of these maids gave birth to a boy in our home. She waited too long to tell my father, who's a doctor, that she needed to go to the hospital. My father delivered the boy, and later they became his Godparents. The boy became like a member of the family, and still receives Christmas and birthday presents from my folks, and sometimes visits with his wife and children.

Anyway, when he was a kid, and I had just learned to drive, I took him out for some fast food. They were no longer living with my folks at this point. On the way there, he looked at the streets in amazement and asked me why everything was so clean. I didn't know what he meant, it all looked perfectly normal to me. He explained that in his neighborhood the streets were full of garbage.

Just a little anecdote. Take it for what it's worth. Must be a cultural thing.

PS: His mother is still in the employ of my parents, and she's now a citizen. Her daughter is also in my parents' employ, also a citizen, though born south of the border. He's an assistant manager at a grocer.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

How is that not a "subculture"?

I'm still having trouble finding where I said there were no subcultures in America with a Mexican flavor, among the other problems I'm having with the post in question.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

I'm still having trouble finding where I said there were no subcultures in America with a Mexican flavor

We ended up here based on:

"Mexicans are increasingly unwilling to be a part of American culture"

"Oh yeah, what's American culture?"

"Well, there isn't one American culture per se, but rather a number of American regional cultures", "umm, make that American subcultures"



Yeah, way off topic, but it's been fantastic to have a thread on this open this long without it breaking down in to name calling.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Um, I think that when people say that Mexicans are increasingly not wanting to become "American" and you ask "What is American?" and get into the argument of regional dynamics, you miss the point.

The point is rallies which many an illegal (and American on paper Hispanic of Mexican descent) have been attending. It is the Mexican flags that some Hispanic folks have felt the need to run up flagpoles outside of Post Offices in the US.

It is the rhetoric of groups like La Voz De Aztlan. It is the talk of La Raza. It is the fact that even now when I speak to many Hispanics, although many of them do wish to become American, many of them tell me straight out, they have no such desire.

I find it funny that although my great grandfather never really mastered English, he did his best to make sure his kids were "American." Yet, many Mexican descended Americans, have no such desire for their children. They either do not care at all, or want their kids to remain "Mexican inside" regardless of what they are outside.

Now, I don't know (and no one really does) what is in the hearts and minds of illegal immigrants, Americans by birth, etc. in terms of percentages. I can give much anecdotal evidence, but you can supply opposing evidence. Regardless of such evidence, we still have the Maywood debacle. We have the fact that at rallies, the illegals and their supporters don't scream "We're Americans too."

They instead yell, "This is our land."

If they yelled "We are Americans too!" I'd feel alot better about what is going on. If they carried USA flags to their rallies, and turned this into "I want to be an American" I'd feel much better.

But I listen to the vitriolic hate mongering of Antonio Villaigrosa and various militant leftists who read as an exile list from the 1960's radical Hispanic left, and what they have to say. (Which generally is racist against whites, and especially hate filled towards Jewish folks) and I worry.

Now, can I bunch all Hispanics, all illegals, etc. in with that crew? No, and I wouldn't. But, we have to consider these facts, not opinions, facts in terms of assimilation.

We also have to consider the motivations of the groups backing illegal immigration who aren't big business or big government, and how much pull they have. I look at the smaller, supposedly less meaningfull groups, and I worry.

If you have listened to what some of them have said (this goes for you as well as me KW, because the Aztlan folks are Nazis with brown skin), you would be worried as well.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

If they carried USA flags to their rallies...

You mean like the American flag shown in the picture on this page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_U.S._immigration_reform_protests


Look, I'm not saying "let them all in", nor am I saying they're all innocent. What I am saying is something like this:

Now, I don't know (and no one really does) what is in the hearts and minds of illegal immigrants, Americans by birth, etc. in terms of percentages. I can give much anecdotal evidence, but you can supply opposing evidence. Regardless of such evidence, we still have the Maywood debacle. We have the fact that at rallies, the illegals and their supporters don't scream "We're Americans too."

They instead yell, "This is our land."

If they yelled "We are Americans too!"

Could be the result of selective listening. Or, like many political issues, a case where the minority do the loudest yelling, kind of like gun control.

No, and I wouldn't. But, we have to consider these facts, not opinions, facts in terms of assimilation.

Facts? How many millions of Mexicans are here? How many raised that flag over the post office. Judging millions by the actions of a handful is not something I'd call using "facts". Using facts like that, I should assume every white guy with a short haircut is just another Timothy McVeigh.

If you have listened to what some of them have said (this goes for you as well as me KW, because the Aztlan folks are Nazis with brown skin), you would be worried as well.

Agreed. Hence my taste in armaments.

I look at the smaller, supposedly less meaningfull groups, and I worry.

Me too. Like the good, well assimilated Americans that say "kill 'em all". There can be "Nazis" on both sides of this.

To go back to the original issue in this thread. I support the actions of the Minutemen, given they live up to the responsibility of policing their own for home-grown fascists. (Just like I would hope the American citizens of Mexican origin would take care of theirs). My worry is when someone ways "kill 'em all", their definition of "them" tends to expand, and historically speaking, it ain't long before I'm one of "them".

 

[AirForceShooter]

Forget about the Minure Men for a moment.
I have a problem with any Office in Charge that after this incident would deploy his or her men to a border post without being fully armed and having sufficient ammo at hand with proper rules of engagement.

AFS

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

air force shooter

there is some question regarding what they are armed with few facts davo has had some interaction and he described it as some are some aren't. the rules as presented to us were they were instructed to withdraw just observe

 

[CornCod]

I support the actions of the Minutemen. At least SOMEBODY is trying to protect the border. If a different group can do a better job than the Minutemen I will support them instead.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Heated Agreement

It appears that, 11 pages in and more than 260 posts later, we are more IN agreement than not.

Uncontrolled incursions into the US are bad.

Infiltration and freeloading is bad. So is the piggy-backed drug trafficking.

Refusal to assimilate (learn language, adopt meta norms) is bad.

Color/race is not an issue.

The left is in this up to their armpits.
The right is in this up to their armpits.
The corporates are in this up to their armpits.
There are provocateurs involved with their own agenda.

Those getting the shaft are a) American citizens, especially those at the lower end of the income slope and those who pay taxes, and b) the illegals themselves, who are an unwitting commodity.

If it continues, the hole gets deeper.

The place to start is at the border itself to staunch the bleeding.

The next place is . . . where things get fuzzy. Political activism will only work if the objectives are cleaned up and the little bits of emotional lint are brushed away.

We have a major security problem, coupled with a major services overload problem.

And the people responsible for fixing it profit too much from the problem to want it fixed, so they lie to us and continue to promote the problem.

One way they promote the problem is rhetoric that mis-characterizes the problem, so that left-leaning people buy one "view" and right-leaning people buy the opposing "view" complete with pre-packaged blame and talking points.

So we come to this: What is to be done? What form of activism will be effective?

Let us begin with this: IT CAN BE FIXED.

How do we do that?

 

[seeker_two]

My only response is......

S3....

 

[Keith Wheeler]

Those getting the shaft are a) American citizens, especially those at the lower end of the income slope and those who pay taxes, and b) the illegals themselves, who are an unwitting commodity.

If it continues, the hole gets deeper.

The place to start is at the border itself to staunch the bleeding.

A good start. I'll say it again because someone will imply I didn't. A good start. Maybe a better one is to react like the American Revolution, and attack the property of the corporations that profit from immoral government regulations (Boston Tea Party).

Let us begin with this: IT CAN BE FIXED.

How do we do that?

1) We punish owners of and decision makers at corporations who abuse the situation, "free market" be d***ed, if you employ someone illegally you need to be slammed. (Of course being in Arkansas that probably means someone from Tyson is signing a contract for my head right now...) I believe that economics, properly applied, is a powerful tool (please tell me I didn't pay for an MBA for nothing!) and that if you curb the demand side of this equation, you can ease the supply as well.

2) We remind our friends, as necessary, that racism is unbecoming of free men.

3) We support those of Hispanic origin who are here legally and encourage them to inform any non-citizen friends and relatives that we are a country of acceptance for those who follow our laws and wish to bring the positive benefits of their personal contributions to the table.

4) Coyotes. Trafficking in human beings on our soil should be a serious crime, citizen or not. We're not talking about mere "smugglers" of contraband, but slavers, liars and sellors of human souls and they should be treated like the felons they are.

5) We gotta figure out a better way to solve our War on (Some) Drugs issue. The narco-smugglers wouldn't, um, be smuggling narco without the demand. I'm smart enough to say I'm not smart enough to solve this problem, but also I hope smart enough to see that it is indeed an issue.

and

One way they promote the problem is rhetoric that mis-characterizes the problem, so that left-leaning people buy one "view" and right-leaning people buy the opposing "view" complete with pre-packaged blame and talking points.

6) As those of us with differing viewpoints have done on this thread, we must strive as a people to find a common ground on this situation, instead of playing the political "my side - your side" game. We've done it here, it is possible at a national level.

 

[kungfuhippie]

Yes, KW the guy from ARKANSAS, I am a backwards redneck. I must just be a racist. You are so right! How'd you know?
<Sarcasm off>
Have you ever been to a third world country? I don't mean tourist towns. I mean dirt road, agriculture based, blue collar third world. It's a dump. Even with free trash collection the third world places I've been to were full of litter. It's part of the third world culture. Not part of the race. Loja, Ecuador won awards for being one of the cleanest cities in the world, the people there were middle class. The mentality of throwing trash out the car window, dropping it on the street, burning it, throwing it in the river, is all third world. Barrio El Guasmo of Guayaquil is one of the filthiest places (and poorest) in the world, a mere 130 miles apart.
I must be a racist, because you said so. I must be uneducated too, because you said so. All I did was point out the truth, labeling me a racist for speaking the truth is just you projecting you personal flaws and prejudices on me. When you complain that people ask you to get out of Arkansas and see the real world, I think the point is that they assume your closed minded attitude is from a very small world view and seeing the rest of the world would help you. Too bad it hasen't.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

I must be a racist, because you said so. I must be uneducated too, because you said so.

I don't think I claimed either. I was countering the point "Mexicans are bad because they don't speak English very well and throw their trash on the streets" with an example of Americans who are guilty of the same. User a counter example is a long way from calling someone "racist" or uneducated. I've done my best in this thread to not call anyone a "racist". I have pointed out that certain rhetoric could invite those who genuinely are motived by such concepts.

It's part of the third world culture.

And the culture of some parts of our country....then you say:

Loja, Ecuador won awards for being one of the cleanest cities in the world, the people there were middle class.

Ok, it's part of the third world culture but not the middle class of the third world? I think the same can be said of our nation.

The undereducated and disenfranchised don't care about the appearance of their neighborhoods. The solution? Education and opportunity! The more "stake" someone holds, the more likely they are to care about it.

 

[kungfuhippie]

You said in quotes, (that means you wanted it to apear that you were quoting me)

"Mexicans are bad because they don't speak English very well and throw their trash on the streets"

I didn't say Mexicans, I said ILLEGAL ALIENS. Learning the language is different than, "they don't speak English very well"

The undereducated and disenfranchised don't care about the appearance of their neighborhoods. The solution? Education!

disenfranchise
"to deprive someone of the right to vote"

So who are we denying the right to vote? Foreigners, criminals...who else?

So you just confirmed what I said, and even included legal aliens too.

Okay, foreigners and criminals "don't care about the appearance of their neighborhoods" I thought I read that in Mein Kampf...

Oh and education hasn't worked yet, California is now 49th in education, but we spend more per child than most the nation.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Still Throwing Spitballs??

Please see post #262.

We're now into the "need a plan to fix it" phase.

We've completed the "we're all racist idiots" and "we're all sophist poseurs" phases.

We can really, really do without the "grits" phase ("ad hominy").

Y'all put down yer pea shooters and let's have a jug while we talk about how to get ridda dem gophers.

 

[razorburn]

American culture is regional, but saying that is not the same as saying there is no such thing as American culture, and there are certainly lots of people who live here who do not embrace American culture in ANY of its regional forms.

I said there's no uniform American culture. That comes from our freedoms, people are allowed to act any way they wish within the law, some things are more become more or less popular within their respective areas? It's dangerous to start demanding behavioral standards from others if they're already living within the law. The enemy of freedom.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I said there's no uniform American culture. That comes from our freedoms, people are allowed to act any way they wish within the law, some things are more become more or less popular within their respective areas? It's dangerous to start demanding behavioral standards from others if they're already living within the law. The enemy of freedom.

True, but there are good and bad choices to be made as to which cultures are most compatible with our own. It would be most unwise, for an extreme example, to stop all immigration, except that from the Middle East, increasing that ten fold. I hope we can agree that this kind of policy would essentially constitute national suicide. Once you acknowledge that there are good and bad choices to be made, we then have to ask if allowing a tidal wave of Mexicans, who typically express zero interest in adopting any of the regional forms of American culture, is a wise decision. By wise, I mean one which will result in long term peaceful coexistence and prosperity within our borders.

 

[carebear]

Remember that the most important part of "American culture" has nothing whatsoever to do with people's, nations, or groups.

It's not any kind of ethnicity, it's the belief in the sovereignty of the individual, living with other self-identified individuals under the rule of law. This belief system is open to all, should they have the intelligence and will to accept it.

Our culture is reverting from that founding standard, which is abstract and nationless, to one of tribalism, of forming groups based on shared you-name-it and trying to get "our guy" in power so he can take care of us.

Classical modern liberalism, the supremacy of the individual, has been poisoned by well-meaning collectivists who can't accept life isn't fair and so try to form us back into tribes to take care of each other.

Whether it's tribally minded people from the Middle East or peasant-minded Mexican serfs or lilly-white homegrown hippies afraid to take responsibility for their own well-being based on their own ability and drive it matters not.

Until we break this cancer of collectivism, we're headed for the same misery as the rest of the world.

An open border just speeds us down the road.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Until we break this cancer of collectivism, we're headed for the same misery as the rest of the world. An open border just speeds us down the road.

Yes, and this is not mere coincidence. Our open borders are not due to either the impossibility to correct them nor mere negligence on the part of our elected representatives. In order for the American people to accept world government, and the submergence of our nation's sovereignty into same, we must first be brought down to the level of the rest of the world. We cannot have 1950s style prosperity in the United States AND world government. The American people would never tolerate such a huge loss of prosperity. Make us equal, however, and there is little to lose in becoming one big happy world system.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Carebear, Hawkeye

+1

Nicely said.

I wonder what would be an effective remedy?

 

[razorburn]

True, but there are good and bad choices to be made as to which cultures are most compatible with our own. It would be most unwise, for an extreme example, to stop all immigration, except that from the Middle East, increasing that ten fold. I hope we can agree that this kind of policy would essentially constitute national suicide. Once you acknowledge that there are good and bad choices to be made, we then have to ask if allowing a tidal wave of Mexicans, who typically express zero interest in adopting any of the regional forms of American culture, is a wise decision. By wise, I mean one which will result in long term peaceful coexistence and prosperity within our borders.

If you think the Mexicans culture is incompatible, why? They can create their own form of regional culture, as other Americans have done in the past, not necessarily conforming to what's already there. The people of liberal san franciscan, or the rural south, or Harlem, or the Hollywood jet set, all developed their own and are still American.

1st generation immigrants usually keep their former cultural identity close, but 2nd and 3rd are much adapted. It's reasonable and prudent to ask they obey the laws, but that's it. Requiring certain behavioral and cultural standards is ridiculous.

 

[STAGE 2]

This whole things is so stupid. Other nations with borders FAR smaller and little illegal immigration have armed border posts. Why we don't do this is beyond me.

Most immigrants come here because the benefits outweight the dangers. A couple of rifle posts would flip this 180 degrees.