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Volunteers 'with heat' to support National Guard

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Desertdog, Jan 9, 2007.

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  1. deadin

    deadin Member

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    I may have missed something on this “attack”. Were shots fired? All I have seen is that a small group of men, carrying “what appeared to be rifles” were observed crossing the border by a NG post whose orders were to “observe and report”. They were also under orders to vacate the post if they felt in danger. It appears that they did exactly as ordered. They were also authorized to use their weapons if attacked, which they did not. So I would assume that they weren’t “attacked” and “overrun” by gun firing drug lords as some seem to want to have happened. If just “seeing” some men with rifles is justification for the guard units to open fire, the Minutemen better be careful if they decide to arm themselves with more "heat" than just handguns and deploy to the border. They might be mistaken for “attackers”.
     
  2. Malone LaVeigh

    Malone LaVeigh Member

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    Wow. Cassandrasdaddy's a leftist? I never knew.

    Actually, I suspect the Minutemen are trying to get some media attention to the fact that US troops were assaulted on our border and were unable to respond effectively. That is something that needs to be done if you ask me. Did you notice that the original event barely made a ripple on the national media? Unfortunately, this stuff winding up in Worldnetdaily just reinforces the perception that this is the domain of the lunatic Right.

    I just hope they can get covered by the major media and the way they're going about it doesn't backfire. If they're smart, it will involve a few photo ops and little risky behavior.
     
  3. carlrodd

    carlrodd Member

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    the behavior of violent illegals is the problem......it's sick to point fingers at anybody but those being violent, and those in our government that do nothing to stop it. this situation will only get worse, so get used to these sorts of headlines. it heartens me to know there are rough men willing to sacrifice a great deal to be down there. violent trespassers are going to be shot, more and more frequently i think, and by definition, that's what they deserve. sometimes, many times, situations present themselves that have no chance for a peaceful solution. i think this is clearly one of them. tiptoeing around the issue while violent illegals compromise our borders and threaten OUR FELLOW CITIZENS is sick, and weak, and deplorable. a hard, hard line needs to be taken, and so far, these guys are the only ones willing to do it.....kudos!
     
  4. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    The funniest part is what happens to foreigners who have a spent cartridge case in their vehicle they cross the Mexican border, let alone ammunition or a firearm.


    Any other country in the world if armed men crossed the border illegally they would be confronted posthaste, every single one. And if the armed intruders resisted all violent consequences would be their fault.

    I really don't see why so many people on this forum want intruders, especially armed intruders to be granted immunity. Lol America is one messed up country, if people can't even agree on that rather universal point.


    For the record, about a year ago a Minuteman posted a video of Mexican soldiers crossing the border and securing a shack temporarily, then leaving after spotting the camera.
     
  5. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    really?

    "The only real advantage military personnel have over civilians when it comes to border defense is that they're generally younger and in better physical condition -- not a major consideration if you're not going on long marches."

    if thats the only advantage you can see you illustrate my point perfectly.
     
  6. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    ita all a matter of perspective vis a vis my leftist leanings.

    remember james watt ? secretary of the interior? he was once asked if he had any liberal leftist friends, to which he replyed "sure jesse helms for one." so ita all a matter how far to the right you stand whether i'm right left or center
     
  7. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    This is so true. For five years I was a supervisor of workers who were almost entirely Ukrainian. They were utterly perplexed by our Mexican border situation. They would tell me that in Ukraine, if someone crosses the border from Poland, or visa versa, they are simply shot at a distance from a watch tower which is constantly manned by border guards, and no one ever thinks about this as inappropriate. It is assumed that they wouldn't be crossing illegally unless they were somehow a threat to the population (otherwise, they'd just apply like everyone else). The person shot was violating the territorial integrity of a nation, and you shoot those people. If you just let them cross, you really cannot consider yourself a nation. To be a nation, you need borders, and those borders have to mean something. I guarantee that if shooting on sight were our policy from the beginning, we would have near zero attempts to cross illegally. It would be a non-issue today.
     
  8. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    ya think?!

    "Quote:
    Any other country in the world if armed men crossed the border illegally they would be confronted posthaste, every single one. And if the armed intruders resisted all violent consequences would be their fault.

    This is so true.


    really? you gotta get outa the country more or taker a real world look at what it takes to secure a long border. but hey it made a nice sound bite not very credible though
     
  9. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    Do us all a favour, and name a country where you could pull it off.

    I will personally donate money to buy you a plane ticket, and I'm sure others will too.

    And then pull out a rifle, ignore the border police, and just keep running at them. Or you could try to sneak around them, carrying your rifle, that'd be funny too.

    And if they confront you don't worry, they won't shoot you, that's not how the world really works. Just hold onto your rifle and know your rights, that you can violate the territory of any country you want, because you're part of the international socialist brotherhood, and we're all one big happy family.

    And have a guy film it too.
     
  10. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    How long have you been away from Queen and Country? :)
     
  11. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    how about canada?

    lots of unmanned spots. and world wide there are thosands of miles of unguarded borders that are crossed often. like lets say pakistan and iraq as one. milions of folks cross borders like that world wide
     
  12. SamTuckerMTNMAN

    SamTuckerMTNMAN Member

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    close your eyes

    there's nothing to see here. Move along.

    C'mon, wouldn't you rather watch HDTV than defend your home? Who needs that land over there anyway it's all dry, and stuff. Polish your rifles, brag about the RKBA, eat from your microwaves and watch TV late into the night. These are the makings of truly powerful citizenry. And all that jazz about Chavez changing the constitution and absorbing privately owned land and business a few more miles south is just propaganda. You can't trust the news anyway. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,242418,00.html

    Minutemen? AH! They just hate people with dark skin. Except for the dark skinned ones of course, they just want to build their egos. One time in middle school these three guys kept picking on me. I just let them beat me up because I didn't want to stroke my ego.:barf:

    Seriously though, we need to just lobby and send money to the politicians and get them to change things down the road. :barf: :barf:

    OH WAIT, the drug cartels have more sophisticated EQ than our own federales, they certainly have more political $way than me - a simple, ordinary, American.

    ST
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2007
  13. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    Holy Cow!

    This thread . . . just . . . man!

    When I talked to the Minutemen, I asked why they weren't allowed to carry rifles. My point was that if you found yourself in trouble out in the middle of BFE -- or is that BFM -- you were knowingly placing yourself at a disadvantage. I asked why anyone would do that to himself.

    They made it clear they are NOT there to engage. They are allowed sidearms only, as a defensive weapon only. They felt that a long gun would convey intent to engage at distance. They avoid actual personal contact with aliens. They observe and report. One of their guys, 'Vic', took pity on a guy they encountered and fed/watered him. 'Vic' was sent home for breaking the "no contact" rule.

    They do their darndest to assist the overworked Border dudes, who (quietly) really appreciate that. If they get involved in shootouts, they know the political deck is stacked against them, so they go to great lengths to avoid anything of the sort.

    I mentioned that a bunch of these guys are vets, what I forgot was that several of them are vets of much more current action: Desert Storm.

    This isn't some rag-tag bunch of wannabe Rambos. Background checks. Interviews. If they even smell that you're likely to "get into it" with the illegals, you don't get to play.

    Their entire activity is conducted according to High Road standards.

    If I had the time and money, I'd participate actively, but I probably wouldn't go to the border -- despite years and years of desert experience: they won't permit rifles. And, in my book, given the level of exposure, that's just nuts.

    It's possible, if they can establish a long enough track record of "being the good guys" that they might feel safe in adding rifles without worrying that they will immediately be seen as provocateurs.

    You see bad press on these guys? You see video that makes them look stupid? You hear criticism from .gov sources? WHAT A SHOCK!

    The press would NEVER criticize armed citizens carrying out a civic duty, would they?

    This group is the very personification of the Second Amendment. They are, even without the name, a militia -- "well regulated" in the original sense of the term -- using their arms and their very persons to intercede on behalf of the nation's security.

    You can expect the press to pick up on that Real Soon Now, and serious favorable reportage is right around the corner.

    After all, the press is on our side.
     
  14. azredhawk44

    azredhawk44 Member

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    God bless you, Sam Tucker.

    There's a lot of whiney platitude spewing apologists here today.

    Rememer Lexington? Remember the Alamo?

    I'm willing to bet that one day we will be saying 50 years from now, Remember Arivaca, or remember Three Points, or remember King's Ranch.

    One of those.

    If we don't, we'll be saying "No se olviden Aztlan!"

    I'm one of them redneck minutemen types. Except I speak 3 languages besides english, I have a college degree, I have a very good job.

    These 3 places I listed are d*mn close to being overrun. Don't believe me, then drive down and see for yourself. But I don't want to hear another word from someone who hasn't actually SEEN for themselves how bad this is.

    If Sean Hannity can find time to come down and see, then a few of you folks should be able to free up some time to do the same. Tellner, cassandrasdaddy? Been down there to observe the competence of the minutemen for yourself with your vast wisdom?

    Minuteman bashing is even less sensible than cop bashing. At least the cops have done SOMETHING at some point to deserve it.
     
  15. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    i agree

    "This isn't some rag-tag bunch of wannabe Rambos. Background checks. Interviews. If they even smell that you're likely to "get into it" with the illegals, you don't get to play."

    the problem is the fringe lunatics that are drawn to em and that it seems they have a hard time controlling. as they grow they lose that tight control and shortly any milyia is called minuteman. integrating two armed groups can be a chore even with lots ogf training this situation is an accident already happening
     
  16. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    like theses guys

    http://www.minutemenunvarnished.com/minutesite/home.html

    we have some clowns around here that claim that name that are nothin to brag about.
    the difficulty with any group like this is lack of control, and doofus's that show up and need to be sent packing but aren't
     
  17. ForeverArmed

    ForeverArmed member

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    Feel free to explain any other advantages the military has when it comes to border defense. (I'm talking about people illegally crossing the border on foot, mind you -- not invasion by tanks or fighter planes.)
     
  18. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    kidding right?

    this isn't some high kid trying to rip off your laswnmower your gonna "confront" and live out an armed walter mitty dream. theses are guys with real weaponry. and trying to control the kinda areas you have out there is no joke. there are reasons why groups train together as opposed to a group of guys loading up and playing soldier against real soldiers. the observe and support role is cool but even trained units screw up in theses deals (see dead goatherd) a grop of ambitious semipros will endanger everyone including them selves
     
  19. carlrodd

    carlrodd Member

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    the problem is the fringe lunatics that are drawn to em and that it seems they have a hard time controlling. as they grow they lose that tight control and shortly any milyia is called minuteman. integrating two armed groups can be a chore even with lots ogf training this situation is an accident already happening

    where is the evidence of this? or are you just being alarmist, and assuming that this is what is going on or could happen? if the minutemen were having some huge problem with 'fringe lunatics' in their ranks, or borrowing their name, it would be BIG news. our traitorous media would never commend the efforts of these men, but you can be sure they would vilify them given the appearance of ANY 'wrongdoing' or 'trouble'.
     
  20. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    But it will get press. And in the end that's what this is about, exposure.

    If some volunteers getting slaughtered in a shootout with Mexican gangs then there will be exposure.

    If a volunteer shoots an armed invader and there is a trial, there will be exposure.

    This is not a tactical issue, it's political.

    It's dangerous, it's playing with fire, but nothing seems like it will get done otherwise.
     
  21. Biker

    Biker Member

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    Well Cdaddy, I figure they'll endanger armed Mexican invaders also. And, as Martha might say, "That's a good thing!"

    Biker
     
  22. Keith Wheeler

    Keith Wheeler Member

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    And

    The United States of America. During the height of the cold war. Do you guys have any idea how many times armed Soviet troops landed in Alaska? It was more than a couple.


    Has anyone on this forum come out in favor of immunity for illegally crossing the border? Please show me where one of the "leftists" has come out stating that. The most any "anti gun, anti American" member here has said is "perhaps these guys could make things worse and may have not so honorable intentions". I think debating and discussing an idea is very American, but perhaps some think it much better to call names.

    ArfinGreebly and cassandrasdaddy have both stated information showing very different pictures of the Minutemen, and I think that's part of healthy, American debate. Thank you gentlemen for your links to external data and direct personal experience in the matter.

    Immediately attacking and name calling someone because they voice concerns, well, I gues that's "American" to some of you.

    Was he "securing a shack temporarily" or looking for a place to take care of some "business"? :neener:
     
  23. azredhawk44

    azredhawk44 Member

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    Since you AREN'T a minuteman and have no idea what training opportunities are available, that is an extremely ill informed opinion to take.

    SAR/Wilderness Rescue training has been conducted for several groups inside the minutemen. They are trained to work as a unit together... they are assigned to specific patrol regions that augment the already established observation lines. Additional firearms training was provided for these folks. I don't remember exactly, but I believe that CCW permit status was either highly encouraged or required prior to becoming part of these units, one of the two. Safety and territorial awareness are highly "encouraged", to say the least.
     
  24. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    biker

    i agree with ya, but the best way to do that is to bring fire and smoke down on these "armed groups". but the kind that gunships carry not a group of volunteers. i don't mind bad guys getting nailed but this deal scream innocents hurt and pros killed bailing em out

    and these are the most camera shy groups in the world aren't they? seems some one could get em on tape or even private satelite
     
  25. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    azredhawk

    sar is different from being aware of fields of fire ar night in the brush while the stuff hits the fan. it seems the caliber of participant is higher out there. back here it would seem a different kinda folk show up
     
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