Dlowe167
Member
Ya a small .380 is better than nothing. With the right placement a peeble to stop a person.
Who carries a pocket pistol?
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monotonous_iterancy
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Is it just me, or are people more skeptical about what is adequate for defense? Decades ago, people used to be totally fine with .25s and .32s. Now we're discussing wether a .380 is too weak. It's .38 caliber. Not exactly under-gunned.
I was about to say that we've been spoiled by the proliferation of .45 ACP, and so we've raised the bar, but then I realized, those small calibers (and .32s used to be common police guns) were considered adequate just after the era of .45 LC.
I was about to say that we've been spoiled by the proliferation of .45 ACP, and so we've raised the bar, but then I realized, those small calibers (and .32s used to be common police guns) were considered adequate just after the era of .45 LC.
I think there was a change after the 1986 Miami shootout, the buzz created by Marshall & Sanow with their One Shot Stop nonsense, the development of the FBI tests, and movement toward the 40 S&W cartridge. A lot of work from Duncan MacPherson, Martin Fackler and the Firearms Tactical Institute changed the way that many people thought about wound ballistics.
Some of the theories were bad, some of the methodology was bad but IMO, most of it tended to highlight the 380 ACP deficiencies.
If you look at a 4 layer denim gel test of 380 ACP JHP bullets and see how it stacks up the FBI recommended 12" of penetration - most rounds don't do very well, so it doesn't engender a lot of confidence.
If you go down a list of Marshal & Sanow "statistics" and see the one-shot-stop percentage that they assigned to most 380 rounds - that doesn't engender very much confidence either.
I'm just saying for good or bad, junk science or good science the bulk of information out there tended to change people's opinions about the 380 ACP.
People are fatter these days. Need more penetration
Have you ever NOT seen anyone go down right away after one casual shot out of James Bond's PPK?
Just sayin!
I carry my CM9 75% of the time. Mostly in a Theis IWB holster but also (when wearing shorts mostly) in a plain black cow leather Bear Creek pocket holster (without the 'flap'). I love that gun! Sometimes, when i wear loose jeans, i wear my Glock 23 in a Theis IWB, but that is more "because I can" than "I like to". I am waiting to find a Kahr CW380 for pocket carry for when i wear tighter jeans. In the mean time the NAA 22 Mag (loaded with Critical Defense) fills that position.
Whenever someone tells me that the NAA won't do any damage they always seem to decline to want to be the test subject??
Whenever someone tells me that the NAA won't do any damage they always seem to decline to want to be the test subject??
Schwing
Member
I have pocket carried with several guns. It took me a few years to dump the holster and give it a try. I started with a Bersa thunder .380 but had a couple of trigger springs break at the range so I lost faith in it and moved to an LCR .38. It is probably the most comfortable and unobtrusive gun I have pocket carried but it never felt comfortable in my hands. I carried an LCP for a short time but hated the trigger pull and, frankly, I was not accurate enough with it to be comfortable. I finally bought a Beretta 9MM PX4 subcompact fully intending to just get a holster again. I actually ended up pocket carrying it with a Desantis pocket holster for over a year. I do Prefer to holster it now but it makes a great pocket carry gun if you have the right pants.
As far as the .25s are concerned... As others have stated, I would never volunteer to catch one but I have also seen some semi-reliably sourced cases where they were very much lacking. There was a shootout about 15 years ago in SLC that they covered on everyone's favorite show... COPS.
Some gang bangers were having a little shootout with their .25s and a couple of them got hit. One of them had a cracked rib and the bullet barely broke the skin. The other was wearing a leather jacket. he was hit twice and had some serious bruising but it didn't even break the skin. Having said that, I know that they do kill people, especially if they are in close proximity.
I suspect these guys were quite a distance away from each other since I know a .25 will do much more damage at close range but it was enough for me to eliminate it as one of my carry calibers.
As far as the .25s are concerned... As others have stated, I would never volunteer to catch one but I have also seen some semi-reliably sourced cases where they were very much lacking. There was a shootout about 15 years ago in SLC that they covered on everyone's favorite show... COPS.
Some gang bangers were having a little shootout with their .25s and a couple of them got hit. One of them had a cracked rib and the bullet barely broke the skin. The other was wearing a leather jacket. he was hit twice and had some serious bruising but it didn't even break the skin. Having said that, I know that they do kill people, especially if they are in close proximity.I suspect these guys were quite a distance away from each other since I know a .25 will do much more damage at close range but it was enough for me to eliminate it as one of my carry calibers.
Handguns suck for stopping people, some just suck less.
I have a 22 and a 25 mouse gun they're fun and cool, don't pocket carry them though, just like people have evolved since the early parts of the last century so have pocket guns.
I regularly pocket carry a Kahr PM9 or CW45 covert depending on pants.
VegasAR15
Member
99.9% of the time I am awake I have an LCP in my pocket, not sure how that wouldn't be considered a pocket pistol.
I wonder if you would see a velocity reduction for a .25 ACP round when fired from a cheaper pistol? I wonder if they have a looser bore or something. I suspect that a nicer pistol like a Colt or Beretta will have tighter tolerances and possibly give the round more "oomph"?
Whenever I hear a story like Schwing's (.25 ACP bounces off leather jacket), the pistol invovled is almost always a Raven or something along those lines.
Would be interesting to do a test, get two pistols, a cheap .25 and a nicer .25, and do some chronograph testing using the same ammo out of both guns...
Edited to add:
I would be willing to try this, I have an assortment of .25 caliber pistols. Even have a chronograph. What I don't have is a tripod to put the chrongraph on (my old one broke)... soon as I can find one, I might have to test this out...
Whenever I hear a story like Schwing's (.25 ACP bounces off leather jacket), the pistol invovled is almost always a Raven or something along those lines.
Would be interesting to do a test, get two pistols, a cheap .25 and a nicer .25, and do some chronograph testing using the same ammo out of both guns...
Edited to add:
I would be willing to try this, I have an assortment of .25 caliber pistols. Even have a chronograph. What I don't have is a tripod to put the chrongraph on (my old one broke)... soon as I can find one, I might have to test this out...
bikemutt
Member
I keep a S&W 351C 7-shot .22 mag revolver close at hand, in a Nemesis pocket holster I can pack that 11 oz marvel even in gym shorts. It's not my only carry gun but it's great for those times when having something is better than having nothing.
VegasAR15
Member
That would be an interesting thing to test. I would love to see the results.
David4516
I would like to see that as well. If you would try a box of domestic 25acp vs some made in Europe. I found in 32 acp a dramatic difference Fiocchi 60gr half jacket is 200fps better than Win, Fed or Speer 60gr HP I tested.
I would like to see that as well. If you would try a box of domestic 25acp vs some made in Europe. I found in 32 acp a dramatic difference Fiocchi 60gr half jacket is 200fps better than Win, Fed or Speer 60gr HP I tested.
huntsman
Member
Do you know if the Fiocchi manufactured in the US is loaded like the European?
Averageman
Member
Polish P64 in 9X18 Mak.
Hornady makes 9X18 Critical Defence and it rolls at 95 grain bullet going 100 fps at the muzzle with 21 ft lbs of energy.
A lot of folks complain that these little pistols have some recoild and muzzle climb, but it really isn't that bad at all. Fool around with some aftermarket springs and its not at all an issue.
I carry this little gem because Texas doesn't allow open carry and in the summer months I have to adapt my gun and wardrobe selection or melt.
Why this particular gun?
The P64 is pretty much a copy of Walthers design at about 1/4 the price or less when you can find them. Surprisingly accutate and pointable and I can cover it with my hand.
Hornady makes 9X18 Critical Defence and it rolls at 95 grain bullet going 100 fps at the muzzle with 21 ft lbs of energy.
A lot of folks complain that these little pistols have some recoild and muzzle climb, but it really isn't that bad at all. Fool around with some aftermarket springs and its not at all an issue.
I carry this little gem because Texas doesn't allow open carry and in the summer months I have to adapt my gun and wardrobe selection or melt.
Why this particular gun?
The P64 is pretty much a copy of Walthers design at about 1/4 the price or less when you can find them. Surprisingly accutate and pointable and I can cover it with my hand.
HoosierQ
Member
S&W 642 frequently rides in a pocket. I think the hamerless nature of the thing (and the long hard trigger pull) make it a true pocket piston. Jacket pocket usually but it has seen some time in the pack jeans pocket for summer, nighttime dog walks and the like.
Last edited:
AKElroy
Member
Quote:
Decades ago, people used to be totally fine with .25s and .32s. Now we're discussing wether a .380 is too weak. It's .38 caliber. Not exactly under-gunned.
Decades ago, I rode on the rear deck of my dads 1970 impala across the country, and everyone in my family smoked three packs a day. We live, we learn. We have a lot more evidence for what works and what does not. We have forensics around actual shootings, and the summary is basically this:
ER doctors and surgeons cannot tell the difference between a 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 mag or .45 ACP. Wound channels look the same, tissue damage looks the same, mortality rates look the same.
That is most decidedly NOT the case with the smaller calibers. There is a marked difference in these studies for the ..22, 25, .32, with the .380 being on the fence. They are simply not as effective, and that is a proven fact.
With the smaller, more concealable 9's, there is not much reason to not look to them for a small EDC.
Decades ago, people used to be totally fine with .25s and .32s. Now we're discussing wether a .380 is too weak. It's .38 caliber. Not exactly under-gunned.
Decades ago, I rode on the rear deck of my dads 1970 impala across the country, and everyone in my family smoked three packs a day. We live, we learn. We have a lot more evidence for what works and what does not. We have forensics around actual shootings, and the summary is basically this:
ER doctors and surgeons cannot tell the difference between a 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 mag or .45 ACP. Wound channels look the same, tissue damage looks the same, mortality rates look the same.
That is most decidedly NOT the case with the smaller calibers. There is a marked difference in these studies for the ..22, 25, .32, with the .380 being on the fence. They are simply not as effective, and that is a proven fact.
With the smaller, more concealable 9's, there is not much reason to not look to them for a small EDC.
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
I carry a Beretta .32acp as my 'pocket rocket' even in swim trunks (did a moly-resin spray and bake on it - good stuff). my main carry is a Makarov.
I carried a HS .22mag derringer on a chain around my neck when I pushed a construction crew but sold it off and bought a .25acp Titan, had a bit too much to drink one time and decided to 'kill' my ageing TV set - the slug bounced off the screen from about 15' distance and wound up stuck in a styrofoam cooler alongside about 1" deep.
the .25acp is a 'belly gun' IMO. but if a lady can't handle anything else and some can't or won't it will do the job to get an attacker off of them.
I carried a HS .22mag derringer on a chain around my neck when I pushed a construction crew but sold it off and bought a .25acp Titan, had a bit too much to drink one time and decided to 'kill' my ageing TV set - the slug bounced off the screen from about 15' distance and wound up stuck in a styrofoam cooler alongside about 1" deep.
the .25acp is a 'belly gun' IMO. but if a lady can't handle anything else and some can't or won't it will do the job to get an attacker off of them.
huntsman
Member
Thank you
FWIW I bought some .380acp Herter's select which I believe is loaded by Fiocchi ( USA made?) and it had some snap to it, more than UMC at least.
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