Why we're gonna lose in the long run

[Baba Louie]

"No one wins. It's a War of Man." neil young

How far back do you want to go? Forget the British or Ottoman empires for a minute, tho' they did set up the current borders and national names, post WWI.

Israel vs... everything Arab. Maybe we should start here really, but let's table this one for a spell. Or put it on a back burner.

We could begin with the USSR and Egypt in the 50's, but...

Let's start instead w/ the mid 70's... the Pavlavi Shah of Iran, backed by the US/UK, close to the USSR, oil rich, despot of immense proportions, Western civilized, lot's of unrest. SAVAK (remember them?).
Comes the revolution in 78/79. Embassy overtaken. Iranian "Students" holding American hostages.
Enter Ayatolleh Khomeni, conversion of Iran back to Islamic fundamentals. "Great Satan", terrorist training camps, ouster and hatred of all things Americana and Western. Possibly with cause.

Who can we find who is the enemy of our enemy? Hmmmm

USSR enters Afghanistan. Whoo boy.

Again, Who can we find who is the enemy of our enemy? Hmmmm

Paks vs India.
Wind it up again boyo.

Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Libya.

One hyena cannot kill a lion. A pack of them...?

What is it they have that US/UK needs/wants?
2 things.

Cheap high grade oil.
Territorial positioning near potential economic threats to our way of life.

Call it the control of Ye Olde Silk Caravan Trade Route for all I care.

East meets West where?

The Fertile Crescent.
Persia. Mesopotamia.

Same old song, time for a new verse from a new singer. Our turn at the mike.
Everything's temporal.
Stability is ethereal and thus non real, fleeting at best. Good for the moment, then gone.

Why we're gonna lose in the long run... because

"No one wins. It's a War of Man."

But Israel... is THAT a "War of Man"? Who really wants to find out?

 

[longeyes]

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." Princess Leia to Governor Tarkin.

Ah, spoken like a true princess!

 

[longeyes]

The Brits are calling us Nazis?

Yes, the Brits are very adept at irony, no doubt about that.

 

[.45&TKD]

we are operating in a culture that places a very high value on vengeance and honor

Someone could have said something like this about the Japenese and the Germans during WWII, but of course at that time no one would have cared what the enemy thought.

I'm so sick of this "getting in touch with the others feelings" nonsense.

 

[longrifleman]

It's not a case of touchey-feely kumbya bs. It's a case of know your enemy.

The only way to "win" is to completely and totally occupy the whole region and remake the culture from the ground up. The leftists here have given us a pretty good blueprint of how to do it. Look around you, especially at the schools. The fundamentalists in Islam have been doing it in their countries with the madrassas that the Saudis pay for. Their goals are slightly different than ours.

Unless you are ready to make that kind of comittment- 50 yrs-100 yrs?- then just killing anyboby that shoots at you will just perpetuate a gorilla war that we can't win. The only tactic that I think will work it to attack the root of the hatred Islam has for the west. Again, not touchey-feely kumbya why can't we all just get along bs but "attack" the root. Tell the Saudis to knock it off. If a few leaders here and there that are advocating attacking America have accidents well boo hoo.

Some libertarians may have a problem with this but I would remind them of an interview that a survivor of the Holocaust gave. He was asked what lesson he had learned. He said "If someone says he intends to kill you, believe him."

I think we will probably have to fight Islam but I think we picked the wrong time and place.

 

[Waitone]

I think we will probably have to fight Islam but I think we picked the wrong time and place.

We ARE in a war with islamofascist terrormongers. They declared war on us by their actions in 1993 at WTC I. They previously attacked us in foreign locations but the first attack on US soil was WTC I. We ded not admitted to being at war until WTC II. It is an inter-generational war, trans-cultural war, a multi-decades long war, and a worldwide war. For now it is not as intense as previous conflicts but it could easily flare up into regional conflicts. If you are interested in an historical go-by, take a look at the 30 years war of Europe or even the Hundred Years War. This ain't gonna end any time soon.

The worst possible mistake we could make is to relegate our efforts to a combo of foreign policy and legal actions. It is war of a type we have neve seen before.

 

[Werewolf]

The worst possible mistake we could make is to relegate our efforts to a combo of foreign policy and legal actions. It is war of a type we have neve seen before.

You Got that RIGHT!

The West (and I say west even though the Europeans don't get it yet) is in the first stages of what will IMO end up as a full scale knock down drag out war with the East. It's a culture thing. It will end with either the destruction of one side or the other or the assimilation of one side by the other.

Historically the USA at the outset of a war doesn't do too great - in fact in the Civil War, WWI, WWII and Korea we got our butts stomped in the early stages of each. We lost Vietnam because we tried to fight a politically correct war (trying that in Iraq too - probably end with the same result).

This new war of which Iraq is but a small part will be no different IMO. The USA and the West will take some major losses - maybe for years - until the PC crowd and the Pols finally wake up and get well and truly angry at which point the west will stomp or absorb the east out of existence.

It's not a matter of if - just when...

 

[bountyhunter]

The only way to "win" is to completely and totally occupy the whole region and remake the culture from the ground up.

So far, we have committed somewhere around 200,000+ troops and spent about $300 BILLION just to destroy Iraq and get to the first stages of an interim government.

Do you have any idea what would be involved in:

"completely and totally occupy the whole region and remake the culture from the ground up."

Even if it was possible?

 

[longrifleman]

bountyhunter, that's my point. At this point, all we are gonna do is kill a lot of people and create hatred for us for at least three generations. Heck, some folks there still cuss the Crusaders.

Every father, brother, son and 15th cousin we kill creates enemys. The ones killed in combat are justifiable, maybe even to their families. The real problem is the innocent bystanders. The "collateral damage". I've had an interest in studying warfare(some would say a morbid interest) and I know that there is no way to avoid this in moderm urban warfare, no matter how skilled and careful our troops are. That's why I think we have a tiger by the tail. How do we get off?

Maybe the hunting forum will have some ideas about how to do it without getting eaten.

 

[R.H. Lee]

That's why I think we have a tiger by the tail. How do we get off?

Westernize them? Bring them into modern times like we're doing with China? Introduce them to consumerism and french fries and pizza, and by so doing make their life worth living rather than just another day in a sandy hell hole.

Maybe GWB is onto something.........

 

[bountyhunter]

At this point, all we are gonna do is kill a lot of people and create hatred for us for at least three generations. ...Every father, brother, son and 15th cousin we kill creates enemys. The ones killed in combat are justifiable, maybe even to their families. The real problem is the innocent bystanders. The "collateral damage". .

I agree about both points, creating a mass of enemies who are running into the arms of Al qaeda. IF (as I suspect is true) we are slaughtering these "insurgents", why is it they are not running out of volunteers?

As to collateral damage, there was one point in the Iraq war that genuinely shocked me but was hardly even noticed in the news coverage by our side. It was when they dropped the two "bunker buster" bombs on the restaurant they thought saddam might be in and turned it into a crater about 50 yards across.... killing everyone inside as well as people in adjacent buildings. Turns out the intel was bogus, Saddam was never there. But about 20 civilians were including a bunch of children. That really rattled me, both that it was believed to be within our rules of engagement and also that nobody seemed to care. If our troops accidentally kill civs when returning fire, that is one thing. But a planned attack on a civilian facility with many civs inside for the sole purpose of assassinating one person is criminal IMO. Even the Israelis are much more careful than this. For all the whining by the Palestinians, the Israelis almost always vaporize the correct person while he is in a vehicle, so the only dead are the target, his soldiers, and possibly his family. The Israelis have acknowledged aborting a number of "hits" when it was clear the target could not be isolated from civ targets. They have never dropped bombs on a restaurant or a domicile that did not have legitimate targets in it. I am still surprised we have gotten to the point where apparrently this is considered acceptable for us, and I can only imagine the level of hatred this evokes against us.

 

[TaurusCIA]

Tuesday, April 20, 2004

...

About a third of the city's 200,000 people fled in the two-week siege that killed at least 600 Iraqis, according to hospital officials.

Hamdi Rashid, a schoolteacher driving a minivan with 17 family members inside, was one of the Fallujans who made it back Tuesday.

"We love Fallujah," he said while waiting in line. "The Americans are doing good. They are going to arrest the bad men. We are looking for peace. We want to live in peace."

Iraqi policeman Maj. Khamis Suleyman said he expects Iraqi security forces to begin searching houses for weapons.

...

Link...

 

[Iain]

Taurus...

If w4rma posted the following (and I made it up)...

CNN has today been investigating reports of extreme Marine-led violence in Fallujah.

A local man who did not want to be named said 'The Marines are butchers and are killing people indiscriminately...'

...you'd say 'of course CNN says that, they found one individual...'

Fox may well use similar 'journalistic techniques'.

Just me playing devils advocate.