Would you ignore work policy or state law to defend yourself?

[BryanP]

Is there anything you can legitimately carry as part of your work that could double as a weapon?

I don't know what you do, but I'll give you an example. A friend of mine is a geologist / geological engineer for TDOT (Tennessee Department of Transportation). As a geologist who performs field work, she has a perfectly good explanation as to why she has a rock hammer with her most of the time. As you can see from the picture, you could damage someone rather badly with one.

I work for state govt as well, and the "no guns except for LEO's" signs at work annoy me, but at least I can carry any legal knife. I usually have two on me. One small cheap folder that gets every-day use and a larger "semi-tactical" folder in a different place. I also carry a satchel / bag with me to work with me and one of the items in it is a 2 D-Cell mag light. I even have a legitimate excuse. Two of the servers I have to go work on regularly are in areas with no natural lighting whatsoever and if the lights go out it is completely dark. 2 D's isn't quite as hefty as the 4, but it's less likely to be questioned.

What we really need is something that is an ordinary item that can double as a weapon. Other than the mag-light.

Hmm. Now there's any idea. Somebody needs to market a "tactical umbrella." It would be a perfectly functional umbrella, but the center pole wouldn't be that wimpy piece of hollow tubing. Make it from a piece of polished metal along the lines of rebar.

 

[chaim]

In that case just try having a little faith.

I do, and I am thankful that G-d gave me a wakeup call for my apparently lowered situational awareness. We all need occasional reminders or we get complacent.

I trust that whatever is meant to be, will. If something is to happen to me, there isn't much I can do (other than prayer and repentance) that could stop it. Likewise, if nothing is to happen to me, it won't. However, we are not allowed to rely on miracles. We are required to do what we can to aid our situations or avoid dangerous situations. We can't run red lights saying if G-d wants us injured in an accident we will be and if He doesn't we won't- you do that and G-d lets nature take its course. We can't sit back and hope for the best, if we don't do our part G-d can change his mind (so to speak- he never actually "changes his mind") and the good that was to happen to us won't. Thus, while I trust in G-d and know whatever happens will be for the best, I must do my part.

Maybe you should get one of the oversize ink pens from a truck stop or tourist trap. It should make a good improvised stabbing weapon.

I used to carry a nice Waterman pen. I don't anymore as an unnecessary luxury, however they are pretty heavy and would be a nice stabbing weapon if needed. Maybe I should pick up another.

Just for curiosity,, what do your fellow employees carry in and out of work every day?

Most, nothing. Some people have canvas tote bags or small brief cases. A brief case would put something between a person and an attacker, but in my particular position it would be a bit out of place as I don't take work home (when I have a lot to do, I'm simply stuck there to 7, 8 and sometimes even 9pm).

Also you might remind the arshlock that Hitler is dead and you all are still around

There were several things I thought about saying, but there were people around and I may be the only religious Jew they'll ever meet so I didn't want a bad impression by saying some of the things I may have wanted to (plus I don't talk that way anymore). I simply rolled my eyes and walked off.

If I do see him again, I won't say anything to escalate things, but I will report it to the police (especially since a second encounter is likely not a "chance" encounter).

 

[BryanP]

A brief case would put something between a person and an attacker, but in my particular position it would be a bit out of place as I don't take work home (when I have a lot to do, I'm simply stuck there to 7, 8 and sometimes even 9pm).

You don't need to carry work to justify a briefcase or satchel. Carry your lunch. Use it to carry various personal items such as whatever book you are currently reading. Carry two books in it - one for pleasure and another work related. Fill it up with various other minor items.

 

[chaim]

OK the umbrella idea will probably work best when there is at least the threat of rain. I will use my full-sized umbrella more but it isn't really an everyday option.

I will buy another nice pen. Pretty thick, tapered, and fairly heavy. It would work if I needed a stabbing defensive weapon.

I also like the brief case idea. Soft case with soft leather handles loaded with some heavy items (books, flashlight, whatever) so it could be used as a blungeoning weapon if attacked, or hard case which will really only work well as a shield (but probably do a better job in that role)? Maybe a smaller maglite (C cell) which could be explained as just being prepared for power outage (and most likely that is all it would be used for- it really is a good idea to have a flashlight on you always) but that could be used for defense could be kept in the brief case.

 

[BryanP]

From Mag-Lite's web site:

 

[fjolnirsson]

Hmm, a fellow who taught unarmed defense to my Academy class carries a pair of titanium chopsticks in his back pocket for when he has to enter victim disarmament zones. A chopstick in the eye would discourage most would-be attackers, I'm guessing. I'll see if I can dig up the link he gave me.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I have to wear a yarmulke, even though it is removable Ino man will scare me away from obeying what G-d Himself expect of me

So you aren't obeying the commandment when you wear an Orioles cap?

"Everything in the world- whatever is and whatever happens- is a test, designed to give you freedom of choice. Choose wisely." Rebbe Nachman of Breslov- Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom, #300

Even if you never see this particular piece of dirt again, he has done you a service. He has made you realize that you live in -- and work for -- a state that does not respect your human right to defend yourself.

He has also exposed in you a common fallacy -- "I'll carry when I think the risk is high." Unfortunately, we can't schedule violent encounters, so the chance of getting it right are pretty slim. That's why so many of us choose to carry every day. Shouldn't you have the same right?

I'm not saying quit tomorrow; we all have economic, social and familial realities with which we must deal. But I am saying that it is time to examine the possibility of choosing a place to live where the state allows you to obey the religious commandment of self-preservation, and starting the long process of making that happen in as non-disruptive a way as possible.

geekWithA.45, for example, made the difficult decision to move to a state that trusts him. It wasn't simple or easy, but I think he feels it's worth it.

There are Orthodox communities is many of the majority of states that are shall-issue. There are even Breslov presences in many.

I wish you all the best in this difficult time. You have a lot of thinking to do. Make sure that among the tactical considerations you take some time for longer-term strategy.

 

[chaim]

OK, looking at that chart, maybe the 2 D cell version may be better than one of the C cell versions.

A 2 D cell flashlight will look like a "regular" flashlight and may not seem unusual. Meanwhile, for the candlepower of the 2 D cell in a C cell you need the 3 C cell version which will look a little long (candlepower is important both when using it as a flashlight and it might help disorient an attacker if there is time to get to it and flash it in his/her eyes). It is also heavier than the 4 C cell version which would definately look a bit odd to be carrying around (and may be too long for a brief case). Maybe if I get one in red or blue it will look a bit more friendly than in black as well.

 

[BryanP]

Here's a picture of my 2D blue mag lite I just took with a few items for proper scale comparison. It's actually quite handy / hefty for it's size.

 

[chaim]

So you aren't obeying the commandment when you wear an Orioles cap?

Yes and no. There is something to wearing something that specifically identifies you as Jewish, we are supposed to be proud of it, not ashamed (there is a reason most Orthodox Jews of the end of Orthodox I'm on only wear black suits, white shirts, and hats- this is one of several of the reasons). Also, an Orioles cap will work when going to a ballgame or bar, but it isn't so good for work (I work in an office).

There are Orthodox communities is many of the majority of states that are shall-issue. There are even Breslov presences in many.

That is true, there are many places that might work. Miami has a large Orthodox population, and a small Chassidic population. Cleveland has a large Orthodox population (but not much that's Chassidic).

As for the Breslov presence, I like Reb Nachman's teachings, but I'm actually not Breslov (I can see from my sig how you'd think so). It is one of three Chassidic directions I might go. Actually, Hornosteiple is more of an influence on me. There are two main brothers who are Rebbes from this group, one (the main one) is in Milwaulkee (does WI have CCW yet?) and one (his group is shrinking though) is in Denver.

I am thinking about moving to a CCW state. I'm also thinking about the NYC area due to the large Orthodox population (important while I'm still single and dating- there is a much larger dating pool there). If I did the NYC area I'd prefer Monsey as Rockland County isn't too bad (they might even issue CCW permits there), but it is on the expensive side in Rockland County. I think a good compromise might be Phily- near NYC for dating (less than 2 hours), inexpensive living costs, and CCW, but most of the Orthodox population there is very different from my style of Orthodox (a bit more liberal religiously on one end, and on the more religious end not particularly pro-Chassidic). Still it may be a good temporary solution, then I could move somewhere better religiously and good gunwise after I'm married.

 

[dmallind]

As a fountain pen collector I can recommend the ideal model for those of you going that route. The Rotring 600 has an extremely firm nib which would penetrate quite well without simply bending (this makes it not the greatest writer on earth for most stylophiles since we generally prefer a little flex or give, but here it's ideal) and as a bonus is made out of a hefty alloy over brass metal which would make a nice kubaton at a pinch.

http://www.executiveessentials.com/detail.php/id/397/

 

[Andrew Rothman]

There is something to wearing something that specifically identifies you as Jewish, we are supposed to be proud of it, not ashamed

I have a great deal of respect for your religious conviction, but in enemy territory, when forced to be disarmed, I think that discretion is the better part of valor, and believe that G-d will understand if you choose to keep a low profile while so disarmed. (I'm no theologian, but it is my understanding that self-preservation trumps any other commandment -- dietary laws, fasting on the High Holidays, etc.)

one (the main one) is in Milwaukee (does WI have CCW yet?) and one (his group is shrinking though) is in Denver.

Wisconsin doesn't yet have CCW, but this may very well be the year. Colorado has quite good CCW laws.

I think a good compromise might be Phily- near NYC for dating (less than 2 hours), inexpensive living costs, and CCW.... Still it may be a good temporary solution, then I could move somewhere better religiously and good gunwise after I'm married.

Now THAT sounds like a plan (although you'd be going to NYC unarmed to pitch woo).

I guess the ideal is to become a reserve police officer and gain nationwide carry.

 

[WT]

A nazi is a nazi, whether it be in 1943 Warsaw or 2005 Maryland. I don't believe in backing down to nazis. Maybe its my age and the fact that some of my relatives fought and killed the SOB's. When it comes to nazis, discretion is NOT the better part of valor.

I have a couple of friends who are police officers. They are also Jewish. I'm sure they would like to meet this punk and have a serious heart-to-heart discussion.

My suggestions would not be PC so I believe the mods would delete them. That said, don't back down to a nazi. NEVER! The World learned the hard way what happens when nazis are allowed to come into power.

 

[ralphie98]

If it were me, I would at least carry a gun in my car and have a knife on me at all times. I also agree with having improvised weapons near me. Since high school I have always had a large maglite in my car.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Forget about the pens, flashlights, and improvised weapons. I'd also advise foregoing the knife - unless you're highly skilled in using a knife for defense, it's liable to get you into more trouble than it can get you out of. Pepper spray is a useful too for breaking contact and beating feet, but it will be useless against multiple attackers. A knife is the same, but it counts as deadly force and you have to touch the attacker to be effective.

A cane might not be a bad idea. If your co-workers butt in, tell them you fell down your front steps and sprained your ankle. Or some such.

I think that if you're going to risk your job by carrying a weapon, you may as well carry an effective one. Go ahead and make an application for a carry permit. Worst they can do is turn you down.

To the best of my recollection, a first offense concealed firearm violation in Maryland is a misdeameanor. I may be wrong.

Second filing a police report, as well as a formal written report (if possible) with your employeer. You want to have as much paper trail as you can get.

Be aware, but keep your head up. We're going to be really pissed at you if you get yourself hurt.

-Chris

 

[model 649]

Wow! I am impressed! Alot of excellent feedback here. Chaim I think you will come up with the right way out of this. The rest of you have responded the way REAL AMERICANS respond when faced with FASCIST B.S. I salute and admire you ALL!

Josh

 

[Sam]

Chaim,
I would not hesitate to ignore a work policy.
As far as state law:
It has been my experience that laws exist as a reason to rendering someone into custody after something happens and not as a preventative. If you are carrying a truely concealed weapon, only you and God would know until you had to use it. No one is really running around looking to see if you are armed. Avoid areas where you have to go through a detector. Life is not without risk.

As for those who advise not to carry knives because you might not "be trained how to use one correctly", I say stuff it where the sun don't shine. You may or may not be dealing with an experienced knife fighter, either way you are better off than having nothing at all. He isn't going to be easy on you if you are trained is he?

Most importantly, develop a winning mindset and habituate yourself to attact in response to threat. If your opponent really wants to harm you, he will. You can minimize that with a strong defense, if he is just a loudmouth, he runs, you win.

I can guarentee that if you do nothing, they have already won without trying.

Sam

 

[HI express]

Work experiences count

Some of us old timers have knowledge of or experienced situations which we have had to weigh what we do at the work place.

My experience? I had several employees who were going after each other then finally one girl nails the other one with an elbow to the back of the head. When I interviewed both parties separately, they both talked about bringing their guns to work...result? Both placed on administrative leave while the bosses above me investigated the incident. Security was alerted to both parties. One was fired...the other transferred out.

Another time, we tried a series of security checks. Police placed the BGs, beat officers were told to stay away from the office. All employees were alerted that during the week there were going to be scenarios being played on them. Releases were signed and the games began.

Results? every scenario played? we took casualties, security was breached...the BGs got to the department head and executed him several times with no one able to call security. They were either rounded up and held under gun or plain out shot for resisting.

A bunch of people decided that they had to have some kind of weapon on them....

 

[thorn726]

WOW.

i jsut want to emphasize, that by the description of guy and his actions, MOST definitely a parolee or at least ex con wh ohas been t othe big house.
SEND HIM BACK. REally. it's only a matter of time till he hurts someone BAD.


as far as the thread= i live in CA. me , almost everyone i know- we have no choice. protect ourselves or obey the law, and it does occasionally get dangerous here.

 

[Baba Louie]

Chaim, To answer your thread question... Oh yeah.

1st... Presence of mind. You've now got that... keep it.

Next... Really good running shoes. I'm not kidding. No leather soled wingtips or slip on loafers... good lace up rubber soled shoes that'll help you move faster than Mr. FoulmouthNeoNaz (at least to retreat to some spot where you make a stand). Begin daily running/jogging/walking fast.

If you have a dog, get a spare (sturdy) leather or chain leash & a steel link choker collar for your suitcoat pocket. If you don't have a dog, at least have a neighbor or friend who does and carry your present for them around... daily.

http://www.donrearic.com/main.html
All kinds of interesting things there to read.
http://www.gutterfighting.org/Main.html
Stick fighting, improvised... find it, read and practice.
http://www.canemasters.com/
Organized stick fighting for defense, exercises, tapes and expensive canes.
http://www.kravmd.com/
If you feel up to it and have to resort to H2H get some training, they may be able to help.

Go down to the closest Police station and discuss verbal harrassment with Desk Sargent (or equivilent) or do it via phone. Give them a heads up. Mr. Foulmouth NeoNaz might be doing the same thing to others and it is probably against some law somewhere.

Be prepared to let the monster inside you out... (To coin a phrase...Not size of dog in fight, size of fight in dog) Enjoy training and preparing for what you pray will never happen.

If anything does happen, promise that you'll fight dirty, I mean, to win... mmmkay?

 

[Chris Rhines]

As for those who advise not to carry knives because you might not "be trained how to use one correctly", I say stuff it where the sun don't shine. You may or may not be dealing with an experienced knife fighter, either way you are better off than having nothing at all.

Quite the contrary. If you are not an experienced knife fighter, having a knife will leave you worse off than being barehanded.

I won't bother totting up all the pros and cons - anyone with two grey cells can do that for their own situation. Just take a realistic look at your own situation, and decide if a fighting knife would really be a help to you.

- Chris

 

[Third_Rail]

Oh Bryan? Here is a tactical umbrella.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You are faced with a difficult personal decision. Me, personally, I would not break the law and risk becoming a felon. I seriously doubt that your workplace rules are encoded in state law, so if you carry a LEGAL knife and/or pepper spray (if that's legal in MD), the worst they can do is fire you. If you get caught with a gun and no CCW, you're violating the law, not just a workplace rule.

Start by doing your homework. You can't decide whether or not to risk breaking laws until you at least know what the laws say.

 

[JohnKSa]

In that case just try having a little faith.

Why not post a list of mainstream religions that guarantee their practicing members physical safety... Having faith is one thing, relying on something that's not been promised is another.

If you are not an experienced knife fighter, having a knife will leave you worse off than being barehanded.

There is no logical way to justify a statement like that.

The first thing this statement ignores is that one can simply not take the knife out in which case "having a knife" doesn't make any difference at all.

The second thing this statement ignores is deterrent effect.

You may have a lot of knife know-how, but this statement is badly flawed.

 

[Tom Servo]

Concealed is concealed, eaten by a mountain lion is eaten by a mountain lion.

That's my new motto

Seriously, it doesn't sound like you come under close scrutiny at your workplace. There aren't any metal-detectors, and you don't wear skimpy clothing, so it should be fairly easy to conceal a small pistol or snubby. As long as you're mindful, nobody would be any wiser. I've had friends in banking/accounting who have been doing this for years.

The other improvised-weapon suggestions are nice, but I don't think this guy's going to stop for a sharpened umbrella or such. He almost certainly will stop for a gun. The other problem is having the training and reflexes to use such a thing effectively. With something like a rock hammer or a dirk, you've got to get in close, and you've only got one chance. To me, not worth it.

Now, as far as carrying, bear in mind that you're risking possible jail time, as well as the loss of your job. I can't advise this, but if you choose to do so...well, lots of people do it for years and don't get caught.

If the unthinkable happens, and you have to use it, make sure you've got a paper-trail with the police documenting a pre-existing threat, and get a good lawyer. You're in a tough spot, and whatever choice you make I wish you well.