Would you ignore work policy or state law to defend yourself?

[SpookyPistolero]

That is a tough spot indeed. Normally I would reccomend that someone just take some extra precautions if they were a person without any specific threat to fear. Since you have a very clear and present danger, I believe you have the right or responsibility to increase the amount of force you have available to you to apply towards self protection.

The satchel idea is almost necessary. Becides being a handy man-purse, they do make bulletproof kevlar shields that slip into something just the size of a briefcase or satchel. A little James Bond-ish, but not if you expect the possibility of an armed attack. These satchels also have lots of little zippers and flaps and compartments. If you're smart enough to appear to others like the kind of guy with the whole world in his bag, most of it appearing to be junk, then a concealed weapon in a readily accessible pocket is not going to be an amount of weight or a visual protrusion that anyone will notice. Good examples would be an ASP baton or a taser. Both of these might hopefully get you in a little less trouble should someone find them, or if worse came to worse, if you had to use them.

Also, I would at least try to get a carry permit. Barring that, you could try pocket carrying a very small auto, like the kel-tec P3-AT. Another excellent location would be in a Smart Carry belly strap or one of those little pager-holsters, if you regularly wear a pager. Basically my point is if you fear a likely life-threatening assailant, then there are lots of deep-concealment means available to you. These are good options if you're willing to break a law, however absurd, to ensure your safety.

Lastly, that umbrella above looks really cool! If you have the patience to learn to use something like that, and it is what it says it is, I'd check it out. If you think you're the kind of guy who could pull off a cane, Cold Steel, I think, used to make a cane made just for circumstances like yours.

Anyway, do be very aware of your surroundings, always have multiple escape plans and don't get complacent!

Take care-

Spooky

 

[rick_reno]

Yes - I would carry whatever I'm comfortable in using to defend myself.

 

[fjolnirsson]

That's my new motto

Glad you liked it.

 

[olyAR73]

Follow the law of man (in this case, policy) until it jeopardizes your personal preservation. Then follow natural law.

 

[zastros]

Being knot gifted, I made myself a keyring/fob kinda thing about 16" long. I inserted the key ring into the handle looking knot at one end.
"And what's the little leather bag at the other end for?"

"Change purse. Always full of quarters, you know tolls, phonebooths, that kinda thing.

It generally rides around my neck when I'm in public. It'll ride under the neckyoke of a jacket and still slide out quick as necessary.

I generally carry the Gerber version of the Leatherman too. It's a very useful tool and who would want to catch a needle nose plier betwixt the ribs

 

[pete f]

chaim

I worked for a few years with a company that denied weapons. I was never without a weapon. I carried a gun to work evry day. pre ccw.

It never came out of my brief case. It was in a little executive planner but I had it. I was stopped a few times and never caught. I still carry that briefcase every day. My briefcase also carried a balistic clipboard. supposedly proof against a 44mag

another question, are there any pistol or shooting clubs nearby?
anything where you could justify saying GEE i was going to shoot after work, and I forgot to take it out of my briefcase.

I had a teaching job for a while and I carried there everyday, not once was I ever even questioned.

 

[BryanP]

Third_Rail, thanks. That is cool. The only thing I would change about it is to make it heavier.

Me, I could get away with a cane if I felt the need. I'm only 36 but I have arthritis that bothers my hands and my knees.

 

[Redneck Revolver]

not sure hwat other posters have contributed but...

if you can get away with it, wear steel toed boots. you dont need to be all that strong to get a man on the ground gasping in pain (ESPECIALLY FROM A GROIN SHOT). also unlike what some others here have recommedned carry. carry a handgun with you. knives are very difficult to wield effectivly. take it from somebody who has his share of scars from them. don worry so much about the law. in the words of st. augustine "an unjust law is no law at all".

 

[chopinbloc]

in a word? yes, hell YES you have a moral right and responsibility to protect yourself. i imagine you are a religious man from your post. our Creator has given us life, are we so irresponsible and ungrateful as to leave His divine gift unprotected? if tom selleck gave you an original sharp's falling block, would you leave it out in the rain? of course not! you have a duty to protect yourself. get a glock m27 w/ a good iwb tuckable holster and carry all the time. besides, it's only a misdemeanor if you get caught. http://mlis.state.md.us/cgi-win/web_statutes.exe?gcr&4-203 just conceal well. (insert usual legal disclaimers here)

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

'Would you ignore work policy or state law to defend yourself?'

Short answer.

Yes. Everyday.

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

In 8 years of working where I do now, there has been one single day in which I was not armed, and armed well. And without shame -- although I do have to keep it a secret. They're protecting us, don'tcha know, from someone who might abuse a gun if they were "allowed" to bring it onto the premises.

Yes, my company has a no-weapons policy in the employees' handbook. I think it's a crock of crap, and I won't abide by it, because it would take next-to-nothing for a miscreant to enter the premises and start doing damage, if one were so inclined. You want to know how good our company security is? They've had DRUNKS wander in. Despite a roving patrol with golf carts (UNarmed, and mostly fat and stupid); card-key entry at all doors; cameras all over the place. Now, at each exit, the doors are magnetically locked, BUT, if you come within about 10-15 feet of any of these doors, a seeing-eye detects you and UNLOCKS THE FREAKIN' DOOR!!!!!!! So you could be suspicious of a person outside who is asking to come in, and as you interrogate them and unmindfully come close enough to the door, YOU UNLOCK IT FOR THEM!!!!

I have legal CCW here. I will NOT give up my right because my employer is so ignorant as to believe that any good is done if we good people give up our right to be armed for our own defense. I know several other gun owners at work, even one who is a woman (and I think she might have gotten her CCW license by now, too). My boss is a big shooter himself, and mentioned something about having a gun in his car in the past, but I do not think he carries, and I don't think he even keeps one in his car anymore. (I think the old story was that when he did do that, his car was stolen with a gun in it.)

I checked out that link for the Unbreakable Walking Stick Umbrella, and it looked pretty good until I got to the price.

Who are they kidding, $139 for an umbrella?!?!?! If they really wanted people to protect themselves with their product, they'd price it FAR more reasonably. That's just INSANE.

And as far as

Can't get in trouble for having an umbrella. They make excellent defensive weapons that can be used with very little training. They make pretty good offensive weapons, but you won't be on the offensive here, will you?

is concerned:

Don't kid yourself about what employers can and can't do. Your employer, if he should decide that you're carrying a full-size umbrella every day rain or shine, very well can take you aside, and tell you, "Look, I believe you're carrying that thing as a weapon and I don't care how much you swear you're not: carry it again when it's not raining that day and you're fired."

It's naive to think that they couldn't do exactly that. Most times, with employers, it's "my way or the highway," particularly if you live in a so-called "right-to-work" state (where they can fire you for whatever reason they want). All they have to do is make a rule you don't want to live by, and then call your grumbling "insubordination." Poof! You're gone, dude.

I know you didn't want to read responses of "get out of that state/job/etc." but that's really all that applies here. You are looking at some choices:
- is remaining employed more important than remaining alive?
- should you care if people who don't know you are carrying a weapon would not approve of it if they knew?
- how much would you care about being found out, if being found out means that you just finished saving your own life using your defensive weapon?
- why would you ever consider acceding to the policies and stipulations of those who order you to be vulnerable but who WILL NOT protect you because they have rendered you so?

If the day ever comes when they put up metal detectors at the doors of my employer, I will have to lose my job. I will walk up to them armed, get myself detected, get myself fired, and then tell them exactly what I think of their moronic policy, in "no uncertain terms." And I will walk out, making sure to tell all of my former co-workers (who hold me in high esteem) that they need not worry; their friend of 8 years who carried a gun for all but one day is no longer a "threat" to them, being out on the street, and that they should feel that they are in good hands being protected by Terry the 450 lb. security guard (actually, they call them "loss control," because they're really more about protecting the company from US than protecting US from any outsiders). You can bet I would make sure everyone understood how ANTI-safety the rules they are living under are for them.

These rules are made to be broken, because they don't accomplish an iota of good, as far as protection of the innocent.

And Chaim, I say this as a man of Jewish ancestry, if not belief: You do your ancestors a disservice if you allow ANYONE, EVER, to render you disarmed. Are you familiar with JPFO? How would you explain to them that you, as a Jew, are counting on ... I dunno, "luck"? ... to carry you through. I mean, every day you carry no weapon is a day you are counting on not getting confronted by someone who means you harm, as opposed to taking proactive steps toward being able to handle that threat in a meaningful, real-world way. Millions of Jews died because of placing unearned faith in other human beings, figuring, "Oh, they can't seriously be meaning to do us in" -- believing that all the way to the end of a train ride. It is unforgivable, in my opinion, to place oneself back on that track, for fear of loss of employment. You have forebears to apologize to. Go arm yourself. Move. Get a new job. In that order.


-Jeffrey

 

[MoeMentum]

You can always get a can of dog spray, the kind the postal services gives the letter carriers. It can spray 10 feet, and is good for bad guys, as well as wild dogs. If anybody asks about it, tell them you are afraid of dogs, after being attacked by one in the past.

 

[roo_ster]

Concealed means concelaed. Do what you gotta do. fjolnirsson said it well: My duty to family overrides my duty to my employer.

The hatchet in the auto is a good idea.

Start carrying a tote or backpack or some such. It will hold your lunch, books, whatever, maybe a 2D Maglight, whatever. An easily-accessable ASP baton would be nice.

(Religious infrastructure= Orthodox Jews need a regular minyan so we need a community of Orthodox Jews around, we need available kosher food, mikvahs, and some kind of learning in the community).

Come to Richardson/North Dallas. The Orthodox Jewry is as thick as the Texas A&M alumni. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting two or three.

I can not give you numbers or sub-sects, but they are noticable as individuals and there are at least two stores specializing in Judaica within 1.5 miles of my house...one of them with a Jewish/Texas theme. Honest.

Also, Jewish places of worship seem a bit different here than other places I've lived. Elsewhere, I have noticed that Jewish places of worship are tucked away behind screening landscape and almost hidden. It is as if they are saying, "Please ignore us and pass us by." OTOH, here they are usually as out in the open as any Baptist church.

Anyway, you have two things in your favor:
1. The Big Man Upstairs is looking out for you.
2. YOU are looking out for you.

Stay safe.

 

[cracked butt]

Walking canes can be quite a stylish accessory if you already dress pretty sharp. I've known a few guys who dresses in a suit every day and carry a cane without the prerequisite bad hip or knee, and no, they were neither pimps nor gay.

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

Canes canes canes!

I've been thinking about getting one of these for a while, but still haven't. Can't quite reconcile actually walking with a cane when I'm a fit person. The idea is plenty cool, though. It is presumed that these could not be denied you on an airplane -- you just offer that you have a bum knee or whatever and how are they gonna challenge that? Walking canes are not on the list of banned items for airline travel, to the best of my knowledge.

And these canse sell for much more reasonable prices than that damned umbrella!

Of course, it bears considering that one might benefit from martial training in the use of one of these canes; nonetheless, even without training, anyone knows how to swing a stick-shaped-thing...

http://www.canemasters.com/default.htm


Blue skies,
-Jeffrey

 

[Model520Fan]

Chaim,

What Pete & Peacefull and a few others said - cover your back. If you choose not to carry a gun, I suggest you look at a C-cell Maglite, not a D. The C will fit your hand just about like a nightstick, MUCH more securely than a D. 5 or 6 cells seem best to me, but you may want something shorter.

If you go to the Philly area, check out the Jewish geography very carefully. Depending on which shul you will be walking to, you may be able to locate outside whatever county Philly is in. I may be mistaken, but I think that Philly is a bit weird on guns, although you can carry in Philly on your permit which just about any other sheriff will give you with no hassle at all. there are definitely orthodox congregations outside of Philly.

Virginia is not much problem, but northern Virginia is expensive, as I'm sure you know. There are a few Chabad congregations in the DC area.

If you end up going to Philly area, I can give you the name of a lawyer there if you run into any permit-related problems, but outside of Philly I'm quite sure you won't.

 

[aut2no]

OT
jfruser wrote
"Come to Richardson/North Dallas. The Orthodox Jewry is as thick as the Texas A&M alumni. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting two or three."

Made me remember years ago when I lived south of Dallas and remember redneck country band -Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys, hilarious songs like "They ain't making Jews like Jesus anymore" & "A__hole from El Paso"

He's running for governor of Texas now

http://www.kinkyfriedman.com/index.htm

 

[Ridge]

Me and a few of my buddies...

In the Punk scenes around Eastern Ky have had to deal with Neo-Nazis before,the first major encounter we had with them, was when they Zig-hailed and we flipped them the bird in responce,they stormed over to us (There were only five of us at the time,we were bandmates,they had eight in their group) then the fight was on,they rushed us, seemed like it went on for 10 minutes, until the cops showed up,we were bloody and beaten,they won but they earned it,I had a busted nose,two cracked ribs and a messed up right knee. Bob (our bass player) was knocked stupid,Wess (Our Lead Guitar player) had his forehead split wide open,Clayton (The Drummer) had a bottle busted over his head and a few teeth knocked loose ,and Eddie (Our Rodie) had a compound fracture in his forarm and wrist. We limped away from it taking the worst end of the event but we got our pay back.

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

Broken ribs, broken noses, lost teeth, messed-up knees, split foreheads, armbones sticking through skin...

Tell us again how this was preferable to shooting a few of the nazi scumbags?

I'm sorry, the "satisfaction" of seeing them get arrested so that they can get a slap on the wrist (and bragging rights about getting pinched) is NOT worth lingering physical injuries. :banghead:

-Jeffrey

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

If I thought I could get away with it for any length of time, or if I felt the danger was great enough, yes. Of course, in my state, concealed weapons without a permit is only a misdemeanor...

My life is more important.

 

[bigjim]

Quote:Quote:
In that case just try having a little faith.



I do, and I am thankful that G-d gave me a wakeup call for my apparently lowered situational awareness. We all need occasional reminders or we get complacent.

I trust that whatever is meant to be, will. If something is to happen to me, there isn't much I can do (other than prayer and repentance) that could stop it. Likewise, if nothing is to happen to me, it won't. However, we are not allowed to rely on miracles. We are required to do what we can to aid our situations or avoid dangerous situations. We can't run red lights saying if G-d wants us injured in an accident we will be and if He doesn't we won't- you do that and G-d lets nature take its course. We can't sit back and hope for the best, if we don't do our part G-d can change his mind (so to speak- he never actually "changes his mind") and the good that was to happen to us won't. Thus, while I trust in G-d and know whatever happens will be for the best, I must do my part.

Sounds a awful lot like its up to you. So G-d won't help yout out if you make bad choices but he is gonna slam you if you ditch the hat. Have you ever actually thought about this? Or is there some rule that g-d slams those that apply rational thought to a problem?

 

[JohnKSa]

Have you ever actually thought about this? Or is there some rule that g-d slams those that apply rational thought to a problem?

Helpful...very helpful.

I'm sure that chaim appreciates your taking this opportunity to harass him for his religious beliefs.

Congratulations bigjim! I think your post was the occasion for my first use of the barfing smiley...

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

Actually, I'm with BigJim about this one. I can't see past the illogic of a lot of religious belief. Stuff that doesn't make any sense, on a really basic level...

-Jeffrey

 

[Sam Adams]

Chaim,

It may have been said before on this thread, but I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. I'd also rather be fired from a job than end up dead or in the hospital nearly gutted by some lunatic with a big knife, or beaten into the land of the 50 IQ by the same nut with a baseball bat or brass knuckles.

G-d demands that we defend our life, which is His most precious gift to us. This is not optional, it is an affirmative command. If you are responsible for others (wife and/or kids), then you also have a duty to them to come home at night, and in one piece. All else is, IMHO, secondary.

If I were you, I'd have some kind of weapon available. At least a large knife, but preferably a small and very concealable handgun (in at least .357 or .40, and preferably .45). There is enough equipment that is out there to allow perfect concealment that you shouldn't need to worry about being found out (and fired/jailed/both).

That said, if there's any way to avoid the problem then by all means do so. If it means looking for a new job, maybe you should consider it - especially if that means moving to a nearby state (PA or VA) where you can carry legally and not have this unenviable dilemma.

In the final analysis, this is your decision. You must weigh the value of your life and your health vs. the probability that some type of assault will take place and the probability (and cost) of getting caught with a weapon in the absence of an assault. No matter how good or bad the advice of any person on this board may be, YOU have to live with your eventual choice. Me, I carry whenever I can, including to shul on Shabbos. One never knows when some goblin or goblins will act out their fantasies on you and your family - and if it happens to me I plan to use the most effective means available to prevent damage to me and mine. Even if that meant going to jail (and it probably wouldn't, since I live in Texas), it is preferable to the alternative. Millions have survived jail, few have ever exited a sealed box buried 6' underground.

Good luck in making your decision - may G-d grant you the wisdom to do the right thing. May you also be protected from any harm, physical, legal or economic, as a result of whatever decision you make.

 

[Sam Adams]

I trust that whatever is meant to be, will. If something is to happen to me, there isn't much I can do (other than prayer and repentance) that could stop it. Likewise, if nothing is to happen to me, it won't. However, we are not allowed to rely on miracles. We are required to do what we can to aid our situations or avoid dangerous situations. We can't run red lights saying if G-d wants us injured in an accident we will be and if He doesn't we won't- you do that and G-d lets nature take its course. We can't sit back and hope for the best, if we don't do our part G-d can change his mind (so to speak- he never actually "changes his mind") and the good that was to happen to us won't. Thus, while I trust in G-d and know whatever happens will be for the best, I must do my part.

Without presuming to speak for G-d, as the old saying goes, "G-d helps those who help themselves."

As you said, you cannot rely upon miracles. You must do all that is humanly possible to avoid problems, or if they are unavoidable then you must do all that is humanly possible to resolve them in your favor. Even so, there is no guarantee of you succeeding or of G-d helping you out. Nonetheless, you are obligated to try. G-d gave all of us a brain (OK, some are better than others, but most are quite capable for most uses). If we fail to use it, then it is our tough luck.

It is like the old story of a guy who is trapped in a flood on the roof of his house. He prays for a miracle as the waters rise. A bit later, a guy in a rowboat comes by and asks if he needs help. He declines, saying that "G-d will help me." Later, a bunch of rescue workers come by in a large boat - with the same result. Finally, just before he's about to drown, a police helicopter comes by. Same result, our friend declines because he's waiting for a miracle. Of course, he drowns. When he gets in front of G-d, he asks why G-d let him drown despite all of the prayer. G-d says, "What kind of an idiot are you? I sent a rowboat, a bigger boat and a helicopter to rescue you, and you failed to use any of them. You deserve to be dead."

Prayer is fine, even necessary. So is using your G-d-given brain and ability to reason. Find a way to protect yourself or, better yet, to avoid the problem in the first place. Your life and your soul may depend on it.