Your carry gun is NOT for Show & Tell

[SwampWolf]

No Loaded Firearms Inside Store! policies aren't antigun or antiidiot.....they are to reduce or minimize liability on the storeowner.

Am I to assume that you are for the "No Guns Inside the Store" policy with the obligatory sign on the door demanding compliance? The "stupid" sign is what I and others in the law enforcement community call the door to the "killing field"; a sign informing the monster that only he will be armed when he starts shooting people. It's akin to a sign at the bank informing customers to not wear a ski mask while transacting monetary business. When I see the "No Guns Allowed" sign, I ask to speak to the manager or proprietor and explain to him how stupid the sign really is and inform him if the sign isn't removed, I and my friends and family will shop someplace else. You might be surprised at how often the sign comes down.

 

[danez71]

Do you?

You go 1st.

I wrote: "Location" matters in that its expected that loaded firearms are in use at a gun range. The gun counter at Cabelas?

The 1st sentence you wrote to my question of "
Does context change the 4 rules of gun safety?" was "They don't."

Then you added that qualifier.

Do the 4 rules of gun safety change with what is expected at various locations?

You also still never answered....
Does context change the 4 rules of gun safety?

You're bringing up issues of 'context', location', and 'expectation' but can't articulate how any of those impact or change the 4 rules of gun safety.

 

[dogtown tom]

Am I to assume that you are for the "No Guns Inside the Store" policy with the obligatory sign on the door demanding compliance? The "stupid" sign is what I and others in the law enforcement community call the door to the "killing field"; a sign informing the monster that only he will be armed when he starts shooting people. It's akin to a sign at the bank informing customers to not wear a ski mask while transacting monetary business. When I see the "No Guns Allowed" sign, I ask to speak to the manager or proprietor and explain to him how stupid the sign really is and inform him if the sign isn't removed, I and my friends and family will shop someplace else. You might be surprised at how often the sign comes down.

If you've read any of my posts in this thread you'll see that my objection is to customers drawing/unholstering their loaded handgun inside a gun store and clearing it themselves. If they are bringing a firearm to the store for sale/trade/shipping or repair it needs to be unloaded OUTSIDE the store BEFORE entering.

No gun store I know of cares one bit if a customer enters with his carry gun in his pocket or holstered.

 

[dogtown tom]

You go 1st.

No.

You're bringing up issues of 'context', location', and 'expectation' but can't articulate how any of those impact or change the 4 rules of gun safety.

Good grief man. I didn't claim that context, location or expectation impacts or changes the 4 rules of gun safety.

You seem to take objection to the matter of liability, right?

When bdickens said: "The location is immaterial. You think somehow the dude would have been less shot if this had taken place at the range?"

I wrote: "Ask the plaintiffs attorney if the location is immaterial. The counter inside a gun shop is not the place to draw your loaded firearm and start fiddling with it."

That has to do with negligence on the part of the gun store owner. If he routinely allows customers to draw and clear their firearms inside his retail showroom.....where there is an expectation by the public that loaded firearms are not to be handled..........that's raw meat for a plaintiffs attorney. A negligent discharge in the gun store showroom may have legal consequences that a discharge in the parking lot or on the range do not.

Nothing, nothing, nothing I wrote contradicts or minimizes the four rules of gun safety and if you bothered reading every one of my posts in this thread you'll see a consistent argument to keep your damn gun in the holster while in a gun store. If its in the holster its safe.

 

[danez71]

You seem to take objection to the matter of liability, right?

Nope. Not at all. But you seem to take objection to others managing their own with the name calling.

You think somehow the dude would have been less shot if this had taken place at the range?

Nope. I never said anything to that effect.

It was YOU that said being at the range is different somehow; context, expectations...

No

So you want others to answer your questions but won't or can't answer yourself or articulate how context location expectation is relevant to gun safety.

If your position is strictly about liability if/when safety isn't followed then the same holds true whether at the range or at the store.

In either location, regardless or context or expectation, the business liable to be sued.

Its just your opinion of how others should manage their liability; of which you've resorted to derogatory name calling.

Good grief

 

[rust collector]

The premise is that carry guns should remain holstered unless necessary for self defense or at home. Posting a rule to that effect on the gun shop door seems imperative, but rules are broken regularly. As we hear constantly, common sense is not common and should not be presumed.

What bothered me is that no one behind the counter at the gun shop in Brazil could/would spare the time to go through basic operation of clearing the firearm with dummy rounds and then pack the gun back in the container for a safe trip home. Instead, a friend or bystander demonstrates his ineptitude by shooting the guy. Failure in multiple dimensions, intended to make us realize our lives depend on those around us following the rules of safe gun handling, understanding how their gun works, and keeping carry guns in holster.

This is not a contest. It is an opportunity to learn from the mistake of someone else. Will we do this, or must we make our own mistakes to learn this lesson?

 

[danez71]

No gun store I know of cares one bit if a customer enters with his carry gun in his pocket or holstered.

Never heard of cabelas & basspro?

They care enough to have a policy about it. Specifically state you need a concealed carry permit. Apparently 'constitutional carry' concealed isn't enough.

 

[dogtown tom]

Nope. Not at all. But you seem to take objection to others managing their own with the name calling.

If the shoe fits wear it.

dogtown tom said: ↑
You think somehow the dude would have been less shot if this had taken place at the range?

Nope. I never said anything to that effect.

Neither did I, you quoted the wrong person.
And I didn't say you did either.
I actually quoted bdickens......and if you had copied the entire sentence it would read:
When bdickens said: "The location is immaterial. You think somehow the dude would have been less shot if this had taken place at the range?"

It was YOU that said being at the range is different somehow; context, expectations...

No sir....not in regards to any safety rules.

I think you misunderstood this:

dogtown tom said: It's a wonder how many people can't grasp the difference between safe range operation and safe practices in a retail store.

Because you then wrote: "How do the 4 rules of gun safety change by location?"

The four rules don't change, but its understood to be a safe practice to not have loaded guns laying on the counter in the showroom. On the range, it's a given.

Most ranges I know of don't let shooters touch their firearm AT ALL when the range goes cold. Some require chamber flags, bolts open, slides locked back to show clear. Once the range calls HOT! shooters can load and commence fire.

So you want others to answer your questions but won't or can't answer yourself or articulate how context location expectation is relevant to gun safety.

I'm not going to play word games on whether use means use. You're a smart guy, figure it out.

If your position is strictly about liability if/when safety isn't followed then the same holds true whether at the range or at the store.

And I didn't write anything contrary to that. I noted that a plaintiffs attorney (and jury) would see a negligent discharge in the gun store showroom differently because the expectation is firearms in the showroom are not loaded. Disagree? Good luck with that.

In either location, regardless or context or expectation, the business liable to be sued.

Being sued is one thing, being culpable or responsible is something else. A gun store with a strict "keep your gun holstered" policy, signage in the store, on the doors and a staff trained to watch for nitwits likely will fare better than the store that allows customers to draw and clear their loaded gun in the store. It aint a problem until its a problem.

Its just your opinion of how others should manage their liability; of which you've resorted to derogatory name calling.

Good grief

If you think a customer drawing and clearing his loaded firearm inside a gun store is a good, safe practice.........good for you. I don't. I think its unsafe and idiotic. And I'm not alone.

 

[JohnKSa]

I think that's as good a place to end this as any...

Edit

<<<...John posted. But then he forgot to actually close the thread. >>>

Thanks Frank.

 

[Blue Jays]

I have visited gun shops that even had a sand-filled angled barrel (in a gun-clearing area) specifically to ensure firearms were empty.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I think this has run its course.