Pirate surprise!

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1: The calls for long range weaponry are out of line, unless you intend to draw first blood. Which sort of begs the question of who is the aggressor here. Somali pirates rely on looking exactly like fishing boats that frequent the area. One can't simply blast any small skiff out of the water on a whim. In this case, it isn't self-defense, if you are shooting first.

Wouldn't it be better to be prepared with a cost effective, and highly efficient option? If these guys start firing ak's from three to four hundred yards some well placed shots could end it before they ever get closer. If they get in closer, simply use other weapons.

Not only that, you don't need a mercenary to take shots with a 300 win mag. Chances are someone on that boat grew up hunting in Alaska or other regions where they take long range shots. This puts a highly effective weapon in the hands of the crew, not a trained militia.

The other alternatives are to keep short range weapons close in case the poo hits the fan or to just let them hijack you and hope they don't kill you.

Fortunately, the people who make these decisions have been, until now, the more rational sort who think about the unintended consequences, rather than getting all sweaty and excited over the possibility of indignantly wasting some disposably sub-human brown people. Which is about the level of discourse here.

Who said that? I personally don't care what color someone is when they are trying to kill me. I hate what these Somali are going through. Most are poor fisherman desperate to feed their families. It's a real tragedy. I won't try to hug the poor guy if he comes at me with the business end of a cold war surplus soviet rifle, however.

Fortunately, the people who make these decisions have been, until now, the more rational sort

How is self defense irrational? Crews have been fighting back, with guns no less for years.
 
Shipping companies are just not set up to undertake the enormous legal responsibilities and expense involved in making sure that the escalation of force is done within modern maritime law, which is nowhere near what some of you eagerly imagine it is.

So I keep hearing. Yet some of them obviously feel differently. And in spite of all the yammering about how it's impossible for a merchantman to defend against these pirates, we see yet another example of how big a lie that is. I applaud them for taking actions to protect their crew and cargo. The pirates are hardly going to be in a position to lodge a court action against anyone.

My warning shot just ricochet off water and took the top of that fisherman's skull off!

These are the "fishermen" with RPG's who are climbing aboard your vessel (ROLLING EYES ICON HERE)

I'd forgotten that now that we have a socialist government, Obama had introduced the Ma Deuce for Every Home Stimulus Program, ensuring that every man woman and child in the global community was provided a .50 and a lifetime supply of ammunition gratis, c/o Uncle Sugar.

I know some folks who have M-2's. The local machine gun club has a bunch, and there are a ton on the surplus market worldwide. I don't see why the security detail of a merchant ship shouldn't be able to get a few for pirates. They're comparatively cheap and will work extremely well against both personnel and small craft.
 
As more ships arm themselves, piracy will become less viable. As the possibility of armed resistance increases, pirates will be less inclined to attack ships. Hoping bad people won't hurt you if you don't fight back is bliss-ninny silliness.
In the movie "The Sand Pebbles" there was a scene where the crew ran a Repel Borders drill. IIRC, the Navy crew was armed with Springfields, 1911s, BARs, cutlas's, Vickers machine guns, shotguns, and steam hoses. This should be enough fire power to defend a ship for the Somali pirates.
 
excited over the possibility of indignantly wasting some disposably sub-human brown people.

Sorry Lemmy... your argument backfires when faced with facts and makes you look like the bigot...

Fact.... >90% of merchant ships are NOT manned by Anglos as you suppose...

Fact.... the majority of merchant ships ARE manned by "brown people" (your words)... as the ships are predominantly crewed by South Americans, Philippinos and other south-east Asians, to be specific.

So by your argument, they should let the "subhuman brown people" be taken captive and if not ransomed, killed. Why bother defending them, since they are not caucasian westerners?

In the world you advocate, anyone who's willing to slit a throat is the king of the world.
 
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Which is why smaller ships should be armed as well. And the Ma Deuce makes an excellent weapon for a small ship.

Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten that now that we have a socialist government, Obama had introduced the Ma Deuce for Every Home Stimulus Program, ensuring that every man woman and child in the global community was provided a .50 and a lifetime supply of ammunition gratis, c/o Uncle Sugar. Since most of us don't need one, we've all been putting them on eBay to raise a little extra wine change. There's no reason every bass boat in the ozarks shouldn't have a belt fed machine gun with a CIWS fire control system mounted on the deck. If you don't have a bass boat, just put it in your front yard to keep those noisy kids off the grass.


Way to take his comment as far out of context as possible.
 
A suspected pirate has been shot dead as private guards repelled an attack on a cargo ship off Somalia, in what may have been the first such incident.

The ESPS Navarra found one pirate mother ship and two skiffs. The mother ship was destroyed after the suspects were taken into custody, Navfor said.

Navfor spokesman Cmdr John Harbour told the BBC News website that he believed there was strong evidence to prosecute the six suspects detained.

"All the evidence suggests that there was a fire-fight," he said.

Bullet-holes were found in the skiffs in which they were found, he added.

the above lines illustrate the problem we have with the forces pretending to deal with the pirates. Once the pirates leave visual contact with the victim, the politics kick in and the pirates become "suspected" pirates, irregardless of crewmen and hulls riddled with bullet holes.
Politics makes it sticky to deal with them, for starters its incorrect to do anything that might offend the underpaid crew who come from that section of the world that can be found on most merchant ships. And then the politicians dont want to kill members of the third world because it most likely would cause trouble for teh donors who claim to be helping the third world.

Back to the naval forces, just last week pirates attacked a scandinavian warship by accident, and got their butts kicked. the warship found the mother ship, and did nothing to it. In proper naval terms they commited a great sin, they let the enemy go free when the enemy was basically dismasted and dead in the water.

until the warships go on a proactive hunting regimine, the pirates will win. its what we discovered with pirates in the 1800s.
 
Eventualy the problem will get so bad they will be foreced to act.

Right now its cheaper for the big shipping lines to just pay them off, or so they think. Its a very stupid short term solution that will cost them dearly later.
 
Making the Good Guy into the Bad Guy is an old commie ploy. Pirates are not victims, they are part of a world wide criminal network with paid spys in every major port. the people that control the pirates are millionaires who pay the pirates money to capture unarmed civilian ships up to 100 miles off shore, that makes the pirates the mercenarys.
Self defense is not a crime, it is a God given right.
 
Every time this subject comes up some one will point out, ( correctly ), the problem of gun law in various ports. That is always referenced as reason for "no arms" for protection.

I think these ships are big enough to make a large gun vault...all locked up with only two or three with access.Everything is made safe when coming into port. Then, when the ship moves out to sea...be ready to arm the defenders if pirates show up. Remember, all the big ships have radar and should be aware of another ship approaching...even fairly small craft.

Shipping needs to demand the right of self protection on the high seas. Maybe stop delivering to places that refuse to be reasonable.

Or they could demand escort from Navy to bypass the no gun rules from the "idiot rule makers".

Mark
 
I think a Barrett .50 would punch some holes in a pirate boat,and out reach a RPG.
I once had the task of sinking a fishing boat that would have otherwise been left adrift in busy shipping lanes (long story for another forum).

I had the pilot circle the boat while I tried our mounted M2 .50cal (too many rounds) and the boat took on water, but didn't sink.

We went back to our ship and picked up a gunner's mate (who was dying to horn in on the action) with a couple of grenades. We dropped 1 grenade down into the cabin and hauled ass. Went back and dropped a 2nd one. After about 10 minutes of circling, the thing finally kind'a healed over and slipped below the surface and went down fast after that.

.50 cal would be a nice ship's self defense weapon. But, no ship self defense force would be complete without something like the Mk-19 grenade launcher.
 
Fact.... >90% of merchant ships are NOT manned by Anglos as you suppose...

Fact.... the majority of merchant ships ARE manned by "brown people" (your words)... as the ships are predominantly crewed by South Americans, Philippinos and other south-east Asians, to be specific.

I'm quite aware of this. It wasn't the crews of the ships I was suggesting were eager to waste some 'skinnys,' as it was so charmingly put earlier in the thread. It was all the White Homeland Commandos here on the internet I was accusing of racism, as they sit there at home fantasizing about firing warning shots with a .50 belt fed and taking no prisoners.

The crews of the ships are probably thinking 'Well, it will be a bummer if we get hijacked, but at least we're on the clock.'

They're the ones with some skin in the game. Not the people here. But they're also not trained to handle things like long range defense of a ship, and their employers are not going to make that expense. And the smaller the shipping company gets, the less they're going to invest in defense. But none of them are going to allow their crews to arm themselves, just as no large corporation in the US entrusts company security to the cubicle dwellers. Which is unfortunate, since a crew with small arms would probably be the best defense, so long as the small arms don't come into play until an attack is real, not suspected. Mercs have a bad history of being trigger happy goons who get into the game because the money is great and they get to do things that would land them in prison in places with a more robust criminal justice system.

Long term, mercs shipboard might have a benefit for the large players. Short term, the level of violence in Somali piracy will go up, and the smaller players are going to bear the brunt of it. I'm all for small arms for the crews, however.

I think mercs and crew served weapons are a disaster in the making.
 
Absolutely the best bet. But maybe a smaller caliber would be more ideal since possessing a 50 cal will land you a felony in many ports of call. You'd need to check the local ports and figure out what is the biggest round you can take without going to local prison.

It's my understanding that in many ports NOTHING is allowed.
 
"nothing" is what is allowed in most ports...... only option is to pick up private security in international waters to ride on board/ follow (which broadcasts who has security) they should allow weapons and just have them lock them up when in port.... and to just make them nastier... well this is unfortunately the case but its the wild west out in that part of the world.. so if you kill enough of them and stop paying them big money every time they take over a vessel they will stop...:banghead:
 
I see Lemmy is still on his Saul Alinsky rant, still pushing the Social Justice. Oppressed Brown Races, Hate the Cracker rheteroric.
Some people will say anything just to appear revelant and be the center of attention. Fortunately this site has an 'ignore' function so I will use that and no longer be bothered with his juvenile rants.
 
I can't believe that some guys in here would watch as someone fired automatic weapons and RPG's at them. With the hope that the company had the cash on hand and the willingness to pay the ransom. Allowing for the possibility of the pirates putting your ass in a lifeboat or just throwing you overboard. Are you kidding? this is a gun related forum, not ice skating. Most folks here when shot at will shoot back, so what surprises me is that given the circumstances why is there even a debate about this. If someone was shooting at your car with you in it, would you offer them money to stop?
 
Here's an article I found just now:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gB7YMEDuCwwY9ncDOtPAkEI4-H2wD9EL0E3G0

Private guards kill Somali pirate for first time

By KATHARINE HOURELD (AP) – 1 day ago

NAIROBI, Kenya — Private security guards shot and killed a Somali pirate during an attack on a merchant ship off the coast of East Africa in what is believed to be the first such killing by armed contractors, the EU Naval Force spokesman said Wednesday.

The death comes amid fears that increasingly aggressive pirates and the growing use of armed private security contractors onboard vessels could fuel increased violence on the high seas. The handling of the case may have legal implications beyond the individuals involved in Tuesday's shooting.

"This will be scrutinized very closely," said Arvinder Sambei, a legal consultant for the U.N.'s anti-piracy program. "There's always been concern about these (private security) companies. Who are they responsible to?"

The guards were onboard the MV Almezaan when a pirate group approached it twice, said EU Naval Force spokesman Cmdr. John Harbour. During the second approach on the Panamanian-flagged cargo ship, which is United Arab Emirates owned, there was an exchange of fire between the guards and the pirates.

An EU Naval Force frigate was dispatched to the scene and launched a helicopter that located the pirates. Seven pirates were found, including one who had died from small caliber gunshot wounds, indicating he had been shot by the contractors, said Harbour.

A statement by the Spanish Ministry of Defense said the warship Navarra had intercepted two skiffs and a larger vessel believed to be a pirate mothership. Spanish forces arrested the six remaining pirates, took custody of the pirate's body and sunk the larger boat, it said.

The two smaller skiffs had many bullet holes in them, the statement said. Spain was trying to reach the Somali government to hand over the body and get the cargo ship's crew to identify the detained suspects as their attackers. Spain was also trying to reach the ship's owner so formal charge of piracy could be laid and the detainees turned over to the Seychelles or Kenya under an agreement the two countries have with the EU.

Sambei said the case could become legally complicated. Investigators would have to establish who had jurisdiction — the flag the vessel was flying, its owners or the nationality of the contractors — and who was responsible for the security contractors in order to set up an independent inquiry, she said.

"The bottom line is somebody has been killed and someone has to give an accounting of that," she said.

Violent confrontations between ships and pirates are on the rise. Crews are becoming increasingly adept at repelling attacks by pirates in the dangerous waters of the Indian Ocean and Gulf of Aden and many ship owners are using private security. But pirates are becoming more aggressive in response, shooting bullets and rocket-propelled grenades at ships to try to intimidate captains into stopping.

Several organizations, including the International Maritime Bureau, have expressed fears that the use of armed security contractors could encourage pirates to be more violent when taking a ship. Sailors have been hurt or killed before but this generally happens by accident or through poor health. There has only been one known execution of a hostage despite dozens of pirate hijackings.

International navies have killed about a dozen pirates over the past year, said Harbour. Hundreds more are believed to have died at sea, either by drowning or through dehydration when their water and fuel runs out, said Alan Cole, who heads the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime's anti-piracy initiative.

Pirate attacks have not declined despite patrols by dozens of warships off the Somali coast. The amount of ocean to patrol is too vast to protect every ship and pirates have responded to the increased naval presence by moving attacks farther out to sea.

Experts say piracy is just one symptom of the general collapse of law and order in the failed state of Somalia, which has not had a functioning government in 19 years. They say attacks on shipping will continue as long as there is no central government capable of taking on the well-armed and well-paid pirate gangs.

Associated Press Writer Daniel Woolls in Madrid contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

Now, as to the worry of the pirates' attacks becoming more violent, I have to ask, "How?" In particular, where are they going to get bigger or better boats or weapons? I'd think that they already would have if they could. I doubt they have the money for anything better than what they already use, and bigger vessels would require trained crews (which I doubt they could find) as well as more resources to operate. Using bigger vessels would also slow them down and make bigger targets of them.

I seriously doubt if these pirates are trained or disciplined, or even very organized, and their equipment is whatever they can piece together, cheap or stolen. They are desperate and hungry, and probably almost all illiterate. Note in the article that a lot of them are found dead of illness and accident, without ever becoming involved in actual attacks. I think the fears of increased violence are unfounded. Sure, they could kill hostages, but then their bargaining chips are lost, and the price on their heads goes up accordingly, and I think they know this.
 
Lemmy said:
It was all the White Homeland Commandos here on the internet I was accusing of racism...

How do you know the race of your so-called internet commandos? Or are you just assuming they are white because they made a comment about shooting pirates who deserve to be shot and who also happen to be "brown people"?

You are the one injecting race into this discussion and I think it is quite clear that you are the one with racist notions, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.
 
How about a MG42 in its modern incarnation the MG3? Portable and plenty of firepower that would probably sink most ships under 70 feet long. Hard hitting round and very high rate(over 1000 rounds a minute) of fire. Would sink most ships under 70 feet long especially the wooden ones the pirates use. AK47s and pump shotguns in case they get on board, because they are cheap,reliable and effective and you could also use the enemys' ammo.
 
Isn't this the same ongoing argument we have between gun owners and anti's? The same basic questions are being asked:Who is ultimately responsible for our safety and wellbeing? Is it right or wrong to use violence to protect ourselves? Do people have the right to meet armed aggression with armed defence? I respect other peoples opinions but I've already made my mind up. I beleive we should all walk softly in the world but there's nothing wrong with carrying a big stick, and being ready and able to use it.
Rant mode off.
 
Isn't this the same ongoing argument we have between gun owners and anti's? The same basic questions are being asked:Who is ultimately responsible for our safety and wellbeing? Is it right or wrong to use violence to protect ourselves? Do people have the right to meet armed aggression with armed defence? I respect other peoples opinions but I've already made my mind up. I beleive we should all walk softly in the world but there's nothing wrong with carrying a big stick, and being ready and able to use it.
Rant mode off.


^^^^+1

I agree. If it is ok for us to defend ourselves as gun-owners and ccw permit holders, how would you justify not defending yourself against piracy? If a truck load of poor desperate, ak-47 firing, distraught people barreled into your yard, would you let yourself be taken hostage and let the proper authorities sort things out? Myself, and many others would opt to defend themselves.

Yes, a boat in international or foreign waters is different...But defending oneself is not. Giving up, being taken for ransom and hoping the pirate is smart enough to figure out whom to call for ransom requests doesn’t seem like a great idea to me. I really don't see where race played into this at all. I see people with guns, not what color their trigger finger is.
pirate2_4.gif
 
Looks like the pirates made an attempt at another ship that was prepared to defend itself ;)

http://www.wibw.com/nationalnews/headlines/88242302.html

Suspected Pirates unwittingly target Warship, Naval Force says
(CNN) -- Two skiffs sped toward a ship in the Indian Ocean in an apparent pirate attack Wednesday -- without realizing the target was a Dutch warship, military authorities said.
Reporter: CNN


Font Size: (CNN) -- Two skiffs sped toward a ship in the Indian Ocean in an apparent pirate attack Wednesday -- without realizing the target was a Dutch warship, military authorities said.

The would-be pirates were making a "fast approach" toward the warship when it fired several warning shots, the European Union Naval Force Somalia said in a news release.

The shots "alerted the 'would-be' pirates to the fact that they were trying to attack a well-armed naval warship," the release said.

The skiffs were stopped and boarded by crew members from the Tromp, a warship of the Royal Netherlands Navy. They found ammunition and a rocket-propelled grenade on the skiffs before destroying them, the naval force said.

They detained 10 suspects before releasing them to a third ship that apparently was associated with the group, it said.

The Dutch warship is part of a European Union anti-piracy task force that escorts merchant vessels and ships carrying humanitarian aid and seeks to combat pirates, many of whom are from Somalia. The task force has ships on patrol in the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean.
 
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