Got an Anti to commit to a range day!
- Thread starter cluck
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I'd never seen this one until today. Also try Castle Rock vs. Gonzales. A mother of three daughters kept calling PD because her husband was violating restraining order protecting her and her daughters. The officers never arrested him beacuse she had let him violate the order before. He ended up killing the three girls and then went to the police station and died in a shootout w/ PD.
For future arguments, I'll have two cases to cite.
Fryerpower
Member
What RCArms.com said in post #25, it is all about safety and fun.
Know your stuff in case SHE brings it up, but it is all about safety and fun.
Jim
Know your stuff in case SHE brings it up, but it is all about safety and fun.
Jim
savanahsdad
Member
take your evel black gun or any other auto-loader and shoot some groups and shoot them slow..... it seems the gun-grabers think all auto loader are for is fast shooting , much like sports cars, just because they go 200mph dosen't meen everyone drives them that way , same with guns
cluck
Member
Yeah! These are great! Sam's article condensed much of the data I already had. I'm not at all worried about the range time. I'll just do what I naturally do and everything should be great. If we arrive early, we should have a pretty good range choice. They have an awesome live fire simulator which has enormous fun factor.
This thread is my worksheet for this "project" so thank you all very much.
*wiki link is no good?*
Last edited:
bergmen
Member.
I just introduced two new shooters to handguns this past Sunday. He had only handled rifles once for a cursory role in a play, she had never seen or handled a firearm at all.
Here's how I went about it:
1) I began by stating that loaded firearms coupled with irresponsible handling (negligent, criminal, etc.) can result in serious injury or death. Hundreds of people (I didn't have or need the actual statistic) are injured or killed each year by such action.
2) Having said that, the component that creates the safety issue is the handler, NOT the gun. A loaded gun can be set on a dresser pointed right at you and will not go off by itself, it takes the interaction of a human to do so.
3) Safety is what prevents negligent shootings. I will teach the four safety rules that MUST be followed at all times a person grasps a firearm, and following these religiously will result in safe handling. I relate that my brother and I have been actively shooting for over fifty years with zero safety issues because we always, ALWAYS followed the safety rules.
4) I use driving as an analogy. A car parked in the driveway presents no safety risk until a driver gets behind the wheel, starts it up and puts it into "Drive". Once that is done, the driver must devote the necessary level of attention to avoid a wreck or other safety issue until the car is parked and the engine shut off.
5) Zipping open a gun case is analogous to shifting into "Drive" and you stay in "Drive" until the gun case is zipped closed.
6) Safety supersedes all actions regardless of anything else and is never compromised no matter how well other skills are being practiced.
I took my time and allowed 2-3 hours for everything. This included detailed descriptions of single-action revolvers, double-action revolvers, striker-fired semi-autos, DA autos and a quick explanation of SA autos. Also a quick description of how cartridges fire, etc. I encouraged the taking of notes or even capturing on video if they so desired. All of the handguns were handled, actions worked, dry fired, unloaded check protocol, etc.
After the shooting session (which went excellently, very safe, very accurate shooting) I followed up with an e-mail with pictures and thorough descriptions of the firearms they both shot (S&W K-38 .38 Special, S&W 442 Airweight .38 Special, Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum - that he shot, she didn't - Glock G19 9mm, Glock G36 .45 acp).
We took our time and didn't rush any part of this. We stopped shooting when we did everything we wanted to do.
They left ecstatic, extremely enthused. They couldn't thank me enough and they couldn't stop talking about it for two days afterward. Visiting a gun shop is next and I offered to tag along if they wanted (they wanted).
As others have suggested I would stick to the safety, descriptions of the firearms/calibers and shooting techniques.
Both of my "students" were fascinated by how old the designs and calibers were going back to before 1900 in many cases, early 1900 for the rest.
I have done this about five times already. All of my previous "students" are firearms owners, LTC holders, NRA members and local gun club members. I expect my latest "students" to do so as well.
It's all good.
Dan
Here's how I went about it:
1) I began by stating that loaded firearms coupled with irresponsible handling (negligent, criminal, etc.) can result in serious injury or death. Hundreds of people (I didn't have or need the actual statistic) are injured or killed each year by such action.
2) Having said that, the component that creates the safety issue is the handler, NOT the gun. A loaded gun can be set on a dresser pointed right at you and will not go off by itself, it takes the interaction of a human to do so.
3) Safety is what prevents negligent shootings. I will teach the four safety rules that MUST be followed at all times a person grasps a firearm, and following these religiously will result in safe handling. I relate that my brother and I have been actively shooting for over fifty years with zero safety issues because we always, ALWAYS followed the safety rules.
4) I use driving as an analogy. A car parked in the driveway presents no safety risk until a driver gets behind the wheel, starts it up and puts it into "Drive". Once that is done, the driver must devote the necessary level of attention to avoid a wreck or other safety issue until the car is parked and the engine shut off.
5) Zipping open a gun case is analogous to shifting into "Drive" and you stay in "Drive" until the gun case is zipped closed.
6) Safety supersedes all actions regardless of anything else and is never compromised no matter how well other skills are being practiced.
I took my time and allowed 2-3 hours for everything. This included detailed descriptions of single-action revolvers, double-action revolvers, striker-fired semi-autos, DA autos and a quick explanation of SA autos. Also a quick description of how cartridges fire, etc. I encouraged the taking of notes or even capturing on video if they so desired. All of the handguns were handled, actions worked, dry fired, unloaded check protocol, etc.
After the shooting session (which went excellently, very safe, very accurate shooting) I followed up with an e-mail with pictures and thorough descriptions of the firearms they both shot (S&W K-38 .38 Special, S&W 442 Airweight .38 Special, Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum - that he shot, she didn't - Glock G19 9mm, Glock G36 .45 acp).
We took our time and didn't rush any part of this. We stopped shooting when we did everything we wanted to do.
They left ecstatic, extremely enthused. They couldn't thank me enough and they couldn't stop talking about it for two days afterward. Visiting a gun shop is next and I offered to tag along if they wanted (they wanted).
As others have suggested I would stick to the safety, descriptions of the firearms/calibers and shooting techniques.
Both of my "students" were fascinated by how old the designs and calibers were going back to before 1900 in many cases, early 1900 for the rest.
I have done this about five times already. All of my previous "students" are firearms owners, LTC holders, NRA members and local gun club members. I expect my latest "students" to do so as well.
It's all good.
Dan
Fryerpower
Member
It works for me, but you can go to google or wiki and search Warren vs District of Columbia.
-Jim
Use the Australian example that Australian women are 3 times more likely than their American counterparts to be the victims of rape and assault since our gun restrictions were put in place.
With more and more women choosing to live on their own and pursue careers it has become a necessity for a woman to take her personal safely into her own hands.
No, the police are not going to be there physically, in that moment, to stop a rape or a home invasion or a brutal assault from happening to her.
In a lot of cases the unarmed woman can only hope that she is left with the capacity to actually call the police and get help after an assault and not left bleeding, concussed or shot.
Or perhaps someone like the neighbors heard the ruckus and called it into the police.
With more and more women choosing to live on their own and pursue careers it has become a necessity for a woman to take her personal safely into her own hands.
No, the police are not going to be there physically, in that moment, to stop a rape or a home invasion or a brutal assault from happening to her.
In a lot of cases the unarmed woman can only hope that she is left with the capacity to actually call the police and get help after an assault and not left bleeding, concussed or shot.
Or perhaps someone like the neighbors heard the ruckus and called it into the police.
Fryerpower
Member
Thanks for the segue Ms Dragon!
I cannot find a link to this letter. I don't know how true it is. It just rings true...
"The Gun Is Civilization" by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.
If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.
Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion.
Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.
You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.
The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations.
These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a armed mugger to do his job.
That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.
People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury.
This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.
People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst.
The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.
The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter.
It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.
It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.) "
Jim
I cannot find a link to this letter. I don't know how true it is. It just rings true...
"The Gun Is Civilization" by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.
If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.
Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion.
Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.
You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.
The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations.
These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a armed mugger to do his job.
That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.
People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury.
This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.
People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst.
The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.
The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter.
It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.
It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.) "
Jim
tactikel
Member
Sorry wrong thread.
That WSJ article was awesome.
I found it particularly pertinent that he said that any increased sense of safety after a gun ban would be a false one.
This struck a chord with me. The antis are all for making us 'safer', but their policies actually do the opposite of that. They are so irresponsible, because not only do they want to make everything less safe, they are also giving a false sense of security.
How reprehensible to put the public in danger and at the same time tell them that they are safer.
I found it particularly pertinent that he said that any increased sense of safety after a gun ban would be a false one.
This struck a chord with me. The antis are all for making us 'safer', but their policies actually do the opposite of that. They are so irresponsible, because not only do they want to make everything less safe, they are also giving a false sense of security.
How reprehensible to put the public in danger and at the same time tell them that they are safer.
Don't try to overdo it the first time out. If you can demonstrate to her and convince her that a semi-automatic rifle (no matter what it looks like) fires one bullet for each trigger pull, then you will have accomplished a great deal.
wickedsprint
Member
If it hasn't been said yet, I'd recommend dressing nice. Tucked polo and slacks.
Fryerpower
Member
And if you have a CCW permit and it is legal, carry one or more of your handguns concealed. Many people don't understand how easy it is to carry for your own protection without having to drastically change the way you dress. Same goes for your wife if she has a CCW permit.
Jim
Highly recommend a t shirt... Hot brass and Polo shirts can be, well uncomfortable. Might mention that to the new shooters as well.
Some great comments and suggestions so far.
wickedsprint
Member
Never had this problem but I guess it's possible.
I have. Had a 9mm brass sized burn on my chest for a week. Want the new shooters to have a good time, not get a burn.
)Fryerpower
Member
Polo shirt with a t-shirt under it.
I caught a hot casing between my shooting glasses and my eye brow once. Not fun...
Jim
I caught a hot casing between my shooting glasses and my eye brow once. Not fun...
Jim
Hot brass dropping into your collar hurts too. The advice on this thread is excellent. No big boomers that could hurt or scare them, but a variety of small to medium power stuff of varying types. Making the trip all about them is essential, you want them to enjoy themselves and honestly it sounds like her husband may be converted quickly and help soften her hard line position, plus it's great that it will be their first trip to the range together. Just have fun and expect to have a great lunch conversation afterward. Best of luck to you, keep us posted!
gunsandreligion
Member
As one poster said, try to stay away from others at the range who could portray a negative image of the type of people that are into shooting. i.e. mall ninjas, people who may "help" you train them, and those exibiting unsafe actions.
Isaac-1
Member
If it were me I would try to divide this into core components, maybe have them over for a couples dinner before the trip to the range. While not at the range with other people in a relaxed setting cover safe gun handling, and let them hold and handle some unloaded guns, let them get a little comfortable touching the "evil" things in a relaxed social environment, don't over do it show them maybe half a dozen or so guns of various types (assuming you have a reasonable collection), start with the wood grain "hunting looking" ones, ideally I would pick something like a revolver and a semi auto handgun, along with a basic bolt or lever rifle, a pump or semi auto shotgun, and if you have one end with the evil black gun of your choice. When you go to the range work through the list in a similar order, also if possible use some type of reactive target, water jugs, etc.
bergmen
Member.
I have. Had a 9mm brass sized burn on my chest for a week. Want the new shooters to have a good time, not get a burn.
I recommend a baseball type hat. This will cover the shooting glasses and prevent hot brass from going down the shirt (generally).
Dan
Just take her. Take a revolver, a semi-auto handgun and a semi-auto rifle with standard capacity mags. Explain that a .357 magnum is more powerful than most semi-auto handgun calibers. Heavy concentration on safety and showing her proper technique. I wouldn't take too many guns because people can get overwhelmed with information overload. Try not to go when there are a lot of other people there. Let her make up her own mind based on the experience.
cluck
Member
Good call. I usually go to the range pretty casual. This if definitely one for dress casual.
cluck
Member
LOL! My wife wore a v-neck tee to the range once. ONCE! cute little triangle burn right on the sternum.
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