A soldiers take on the m4

[OEF_VET]

I've carried M-16A1's, A2's, and M-4's professionally for eight years in the Army, including a peacekeeping tour of Kosovo and a combat tour of Afghanistan (which by the way, is a desert). I never once felt that I was poorly equipped. As long as you do some PMCS (Preventive Maintainence Checks and Services) on it, it will work fine. Yeah, sand and dust can foul it up, but that's why you clean it every time you get the opportunity. Keep the ejection port closed and put a barrel cap over it (you can shoot right through it when the SHTF). When you stop for a few minutes, do a quick inspection. If need be, take a barbers brush to the dust, or a toothbrush. Instead of playing graba$$ with the other privates, or having an unneeded smoke, look after your weapon. It's that simple. Take care of your equipment and it'll take care of you.

But, what the hell do I know, right?

Frank

 

[MicroBalrog]

IE tankers doing riot control, cooks facing ambush, etc.

And tankers DON'T have rifles in your military?

Round here, anybody who can carry a captured AK, does, but few may.

 

[Jeff White]

Microbalrog asked;

And tankers DON'T have rifles in your military?

Tankers are issued the M9 pistol in our army. Each tank has two M4s that are BII (Basic Issue Items). It's been this way since WWII when BII was two Thompsons or M3 grease guns.

Jeff

 

[Larry]

If weapons are in such short supply, I wonder how good the training can be.

 

[444]

" I wonder how good the training can be ?"

Far better than the enemy.

 

[Jeff White]

Larry,
Rifles are in short supply in armored units, because tankers are supposed to fight mounted, with their 125mm smoothbore cannon.

We've got tankers and artillerymen doing Infantry and MP missions because we made some serious misjudgments on what the next war would bring when we dismantled the Army during the '90s.

The training could be better (it always could be better) but rest assured you are served by the best trained, most professional armed forces the world has ever seen.

Jeff

 

[444]

"And tankers DON'T have rifles in your military?"

Yeah, they have rifles. When they realized they needed one they took it from a punk that didn't know what he was doing with it. Adapt and Overcome.

 

[cookhj]

jeff white, just a correction, the 240G is the marine corps version and the 240B is the army version.

 

[Jeff White]

cookhj,

You're right of course...Must be getting dyslexic in my old age .

Jeff

 

[BDM]

If colt didnt have the monoploly on the M4 being produced there would be more weapons faster where they are needed,in the hands of our guys.I hope eventually something is done to subcontract work out to other manufacturers to make the M4 if not get the full size M16 and change barrel assemblies,stock assemblies and internals to allow full auto and that should solve the M4 shortage problem.

 

[Jeff White]

BDM,
There is no shortage of rifles in the US Army. The armor units simply aren't authorized rifles. This is a temporary crisis brought on by poor planning.

Jeff

 

[BDM]

Oh I see,and I agree poor planing..hell they should have a rifle for every one wether they think they need it or not..bone headed thinking no matter the MOS every one should have a rifle available to them from clerks to cooks to who ever may be needed to squeeze a trigger when ever a situation arises.I cant beleive they are making tankers dismounted infantry and then those guys dont have what they need.

 

[444]

This has been going on for a long time. Twenty some years ago when I was a track driver (M113), I was issued a 1911 and shoulder holster and no rifle. At the time, I was really happy about it. We tried to keep the pistol in our rucksack so that we didn't have to clean it after the exercise. Sometimes we even got away with it.

 

[VG]

As long as you do some PMCS (Preventive Maintainence Checks and Services) on it, it will work fine. Yeah, sand and dust can foul it up, but that's why you clean it every time you get the opportunity. Keep the ejection port closed and put a barrel cap over it (you can shoot right through it when the SHTF). When you stop for a few minutes, do a quick inspection. If need be, take a barbers brush to the dust, or a toothbrush. Instead of playing graba$$ with the other privates, or having an unneeded smoke, look after your weapon. It's that simple. Take care of your equipment and it'll take care of you.

Damn, that sounds like common sense. You must have been an NCO....
Know a guy named Robin Sage, maybe?

If colt didnt have the monoploly on the M4 being produced there would be more weapons faster where they are needed,in the hands of our guys.I hope eventually something is done to subcontract work out to other manufacturers to make the M4 if not get the full size M16 and change barrel assemblies,stock assemblies and internals to allow full auto and that should solve the M4 shortage problem.

FN is contracted to build M16's at the moment, the contract is bid every few years. Everyone has their eyes carefully on Colt because of their fragile financial state.

 

[OEF_VET]

VG,

Yep, I was an NCO, and proud of it too. But, nope, never had the pleasure, or displeasure depending on your point of view, of experiencing Robin Sage. Them snake eaters are too nuts, even for me.

Frank

 

[Grump]

Jessica Lynch said her M16 jammed before she could even fire a shot. The rumers must be true

Well, in Highpower, I always preferred the matches where the rule in rapid-fire strings was "NO first-round or third-round alibis." If'n you can't get that first chambered round to fire, you're either seriously mishandling your weapon (and M16 vs. AK system won't make a rat's butt of difference), or something is seriously broken.

Or were they carrying empty chambers in that column in-country? That could *explain* a "jam" before even firing a single shot...but it's still some bad loading techniques. I smell a rat.

BTW, I heard that the Steyr AUG even choked on sand in the Gulf War #1. Any substantiation of this? Seems the operating springs and bolt riding on rails would minimize the chances of that, but real-world experience rules...

 

[capnrik]

umm, Omega5 said

Thankfully, being a LRRP, I was able to carry a variety of weapons once the CO got over the AR15 kick and realized this gun would get his LRRP's killed.

So your CO preferred the AR15 to the M16?

Pray tell, what was your MOS?

 

[OEF_VET]

capnrik,

The AR-15 was the original designation of the M-16 family of weapons. That was how it was originally known when adopted by the Air Force (the original branch to adopt the weapon). It wasn't until later that the weapon was accepted by the Army and type standardized as the M-16. So, referring to the Vietnam-era weapon as the AR-15 isn't inherently wrong.

Frank

 

[omega5]

11Bravo back then.( don't know what it's called now) Recondo School Na Trang. Back then an "M16" was called an AR 15 as often as it was a Mickey Mouse gun.
As a LRRP, we always carried some VC weapons. A shot fired from an AK or SKS didn't get the attention from the VC that a shot from an allied weapon would.
I've shot at a gook behind an 8 to 10 inch tree with and "M16" and wasted my rounds. I've also shot at a gook behind a similar size tree with my M14 and cut the tree down on him. Don't really care what you think. I've been in combat with both and you couldn't give me an "M16" or any of it's decendants.
Dirt. A REMF can find time to keep his weapon clean. (But usually didn't)If my team has made contact with a superior force and we're running for our lives to reach an extraction point, we dont have time to stop and clean a weapon. It has to work filthy. Mud, Red dirt, leaves, debris, sand; don't matter, it has to work or I or my team is dead!
Just my $.02 but it comes from something other than video games and TV.

 

[Langenator]

Jeff White-

I hate to do this to you, but you've made a second error of fact: US tanks use a 120mm smoothbore cannon (original design by Rheinmetall of West Germany.) The Russkies and those who buy their tanks use 125mm.

And for the edification of everyone else: FN makes the M-16, M-249, and M240 series (B, C, and G models) for the US military. Colt makes the M-4. Interesting bit of trivia I picked up on a tour of the FN plant.

And FWIW, until the end of August, I was assigned to the Stryker Brigade (currently at Camp Udari, Kuwait, getting ready for the 2-way livefire). Even our battalion paralegal guy had an M-16. Only some of the staff officers, medical types, and field grades (Major and up) had just M9s as weapons. This includes the cooks.

 

[BevrFevr]

M16 apologists

I think some of you may be missing the point here. Combat experience not withstanding. I believe that sand and use and poor maintenace can foul any weapon system up.

I but I'm sure the m16 system is the best thing since sliced bread whn clean. But what I ask is how much time do you want the grunts to spend keeeping it clean. You can effectively clean an ak with a boot lace and an old nail in a matter of seconds. If you have to. Even If you have just seen one for the first time in your life.

Try that with your m4. I think a better weapon design can be made that the m16/m4 that is accurate, reliable, easier to maintain, and has more effective firepower.

Every system has it's day and sometimes that day is now. Let's move on, Let's adapt improvise and overcome.

Yes, I loved my 72 Cutlass Supreme. But when it's nasty out give me a front wheel drive anyday.

-bevr

 

[444]

One thing that I have brought up a few times in similar discussions is, how do we know just how reliable the AK is in combat ? Now don't get me wrong, I am not disputing it's reliability, I know it is very reliable. What I am saying is that it seems like everytime a soldier anywhere in the world gets a stoppage with an M16, we hear about it. This only makes sense since they are US soldiers and it is only natural that we talk to them and get reports from their relatives and friends along with stories from the major news media in this country. By the same token, our soldiers are not using the AK on a wide spread basis, therefore we dont really get any solid information about how well they run in various conditions. We make assumptions, but what are they based on ?
I think a lot of people make the leap that malfunctions NEVER occur with the Ak and that maintainance is non-existent mainly because we never hear about it. But do we actually know whether or not the enemy is cleaning their weapons or how frequently they are cleaning their weapons ? Do we know if they are experiencing stoppages and if so, how often and under what conditions ? Do we know how often an AK is repaired or cast aside because of parts breakage ? Do we know if the enemy is lubricating their weapons and if so, with what ? These are subjects which we know all about with American weapons; some of us have been in the military and know exactly the answers to these questions. But I for one have never read a single thing about the AK that discussed this stuff.


Again, this isn't intended to be a "let's defend my faviorite rifle" post. It is just food for thought.

 

[fallingblock]

Another M16 critic.......

I was 45B20 from '67 to '72.

I handled a lot of M16's & M16A1's, and the fact that they were usually broken may have influenced my opinion .

One of the common serious malfunctions in the early days was attributed to the use of IMR powder rather than the Olin ball propellants which the AR was designed for. The IMR left a lot of carbonization on the bolt carrier and around the bolt lugs. This resulted in total lockup with a high round count.

The problem of partly chambered rounds which could not be extracted was also common, again perhaps due to lack of sufficient cleaning, but the rifle was useful only as a club until disassembled (which required separating the upper from the lower receiver), not something one would wish to do in a firefight .

The addition of the forward-assist plungers actually exacerbated the failure to chamber problem in many cases, as the round would be well and truly jammed into the chamber by the time the grunt realized it wasn't going to go home. On some M16A1's coming through the depot, the charging handle had been bent upward or broken off by some troop in the field trying to extract a round which he had used the forward assist plunger to
wedge into the chamber seconds earlier.

In my opinion, this lack of an external bolt handle articulated to the bolt to allow forceful extraction of rounds combined with the direct-impingement gas system are the two primary and incorrectable faults of the AR system.

These design faults have been ameliorated by good and consistent quality of manufacture of the rifles and ammo, and by organizational emphasis on regular and meticulous cleaning, but they remain as serious flaws on any combat rifle.

 

[Larry]

If you want to fix all the small arms problems, just ask Johnson's wiz kids. They know everything.

 

[E=MC^2]

Tankers are issued the M9 pistol in our army. Each tank has two M4s that are BII (Basic Issue Items). It's been this way since WWII when BII was two Thompsons or M3 grease guns.

Kinda hard to believe but 3/7 Cav Ft. Stewert, GA was still issuing the M3 Grease Guns to tankers when I left in '97.

At that time basic issue for each Abrams was one M203, the rest had M9's.