A soldiers take on the m4

Status
Not open for further replies.
Even a 14 will jam up in dust and sand if not cleaned although it may take a little longer to do.Nothing is 100% reliable weather properly maintained or not and every firearm needs preventitive maintenence to work properly even a 14 or an AK or what have you.Besides you cant fit a 14 in the close confines of a tank or humvee and even in APCs it takes up too much space unless they issue an 18" barrel bush model with side folding stock then maybe.
 
While I am a diehard fan of the M-14 it is far from the Ultimate Solution. The ultimate solution simply does not exist, all the world is a competing compromise.

Some people talk a lot but they don't seem to say much.
 
golgo

That ain't really fair. I wonder how many of the brainiac pothead MIT college grads that design those bitchen weapons systems that make this country the world power it is have even been in a fist fight. Probably not many.

I know some combat vets I wouldn't trust with a loaded paint brush but somehow they survived. It doesn't mean their views are any less welcome here.

-bevr
 
I would expect somebody who makes a statement like "U.S. Rifle - M14.....the ULTIMATE solution!" to have some sort of experience to back it up. Combat experience isn't even necessary. I'll be happy for Blain to tell us about his extensive field experience with both rifles.
 
fair enough

edit to add I have never been in the military don't want to give the wrong impression. Nothing I hate worse than a poser.

-bevr
 
The Syrians (at the least) issued canvas covers for their AK's during GW1.
US troops also captured AK's whose magazines were absolutely jammed up tight from sand and dirt.

The weakest link in the M-16A1's and A2's I've used (8+ years Army Infantry) was the magazine. 99% of the stoppages I experienced were due to crappy mags-bolt over base and double feeds being the most common.

Willard
 
The M-14 is far from the ultimate solution when you have to to house-to-house and room-to-room. It's just too dang big. And there's not enough rail space to hang all the 11B doo-hickeys-M68 sight, PAQ-4 IR laser, Tac-lite, etc.

Here's a rifle I'd love to see someone at least try to build:

Take the mechanicals of the AR-18; Swap the trigger group and magazine well to make it a bullpup design (can any engineer types tell me if this would be possible?). This gives you a M-16 length barrel (for more velocity and accuracy) in an M-4 length weapon.
Give the barrel 1:7 or 1:8 rifling and use 77gr, 5.56mm rounds.
Put M-4 style foregrip/rails on it, plus a rail on top of the receiver, so you've gor space to hang the 11B toys.
Fold-down rear-sight with fixed front post.

Would this be a feasible weapon system?
 
I think the only thing they need to do here (my opinion only) is replace all the old M-16 A2s with M-4s. Shorter and back to F/A

NOthing will work perfectly in sand. Those are no different.
 
Wow, all hte ones they were getting in when I got out were F/A, i just kind of figured all the military ones were.

Whoops:(
 
Even if no weapon is perfect is in the desert, wouldn't you want something that isn't as prone to jamming? It seems to me the M16 could be improved apon as it sure seems to have a couple blatant "flaws" to me... Still teach the troops to clean clean clean whatever weapon we come up with but give them one that isn't quite as finicky and I think it will be better in the end.

The XM8 looks promising to me (ducks incoming objects).

(disclaimer - No combat experience...)
 
You know, it always seemed like a good idea to have a bullpup design. really, if you think about it, you could have a slightly higher barrel that goes back like a bullpup, and have a pistol magazine that you could load into the pistol grip, and have a shorter barrel under the 5.56 barrel.


could use Beretta clips or something.
Just a gun n00bs theory...

OR you could load 4 12" shells into a handgun type clip, similar to a handheld shotgun I saw a picture of...I think it was a Mag 7 or 9 from South Africa

again, in theory...
 
and there's that awful.....

"It gets in your hair and your socks and under your nails. And you can never get it out of your shoes."
************************************************************

'Crunchy' sensation everytime you eat something:( .

The #4MkII would indeed be a good choice for a sandy theater of operations, the lug recesses are out where you could clear them quickly, and the detatchable magazine is perhaps easier to clear than the mauser type.;)
 
Well said PvtPyle. Preach on brother.

Unfortunately, not enough soldiers actually read PS magazine. It's just another thing that gets tossed into the section chiefs desk and forgotten about. Never mind that there is vital information in every issue. Even though probably 95% of the stuff in it never applied to my equipment, I would always skim through each issue, looking for stuff that did apply, and then read that info and some stuff I'd never need to know.

It's like I said previously, it's all about the PMCS. Take care of your equipment and it'll take care of you. Neglect it, and it will fail when you need it the most. There is no 'Holy Grail' of firearms. They are all machines with intricate moving parts, assembled by humans. Therefore, they are not perfect and are subject to breaking down. Good 'ole Murphy's Law. Yeah, everyone has their preferences. But, regardless of what you think of as the ultimate weapon, a lack of attention to detail will get you killed.

Frank
 
we dont have time to stop and clean a weapon. It has to work filthy. Mud, Red dirt, leaves, debris, sand; don't matter, it has to work or I or my team is dead!
Click to expand...

IANAS

But a guy where I work was in vietnam, had the same attitude, and loved the M16. Said some people carried the M14 but it was to *%^#% heavy for him. Bigger round though which was good to have around.
 
Blain
Do please tell about your combat experience with the M-14 that would lead you to make this statement. While you're at it, tell about the times the M-16 let you down in combat, too.
Click to expand...
Okay, I'm not Blain, and I have done no combat, but I can tell you about some range experience, almost all in deserts and perhaps 10% in dusty conditions.

3,000+ rounds through a Springfield-receiver GI parts M1A I built up, maybe 2,000 rounds through a Colt HBAR, 1,000 or so through a Valmet M76 and miscellaeous rounds through a pair of Imbel-receiver FAL parts guns and various buddies' ARs of various makes.

Even under these mere range sessions and a long-walk bunny hunt with the Valmet, they have all jammed, but never once because of dust. The M1A was mishandled and fired with its op rod outside the receiver channel. Ugly jam but easily fixed with a bit of muscle to the system.

With a bad mag (missing 3/8-inch of the front side of one feed lip), the M1A once had a smokestack feed jam. Bolt stopped forward, with the live round pointing out of the recever group. Easily cleared.

The Valmet had chronic magazine problems, now almost all fixed (Galils won't work well). Also had many problems with reloads getting case separations, not at the head, but halfway up. All easy to clear. Placed well in a 3-gun match racking rounds all over the field, from "broken case extractors" which were the next fed round, to tipping the receiver to dump rounds that sunk the bullets all the way in when the rounds smacked the barrel below the chamber (Galil mag did that the most).

FAL--adjust the gas system per instructions and you'll need to fiddle again with light loads that still function just fine in the M1A. Otherwise, not much experience.

ARs: I've twice seen a bad mag send a round up into the channel in the underside of the charging handle. The bolt lugs then crammed the round up into the space around the rear end of the gas tube. Can you say totally unclearable jam?

The ARs I personally fired were all kept with minimal lube, and collected very little dust. Half of them have either mysteriously failed to fully chamber a round or skipped feeding a round from the mag at least once, despite being fired less than 200 rounds between cleanings. None of these were from bulged or bent cases, either. Others I've observed on the firing line years ago at HP matches seemed to mysteriously misfeed as frequently as M1s (NOT M1As), and that's not counting the reloaders who forgot to charge their cases.

From the credible-sounding reports I hear, the ARs frequently keep on ticking for very long times. But it also sounds like when they choke, they choke badly. I'm all for some objective side-by-side testing under the talcum-powder sand conditions of Iraq, using various states of lube/no lube and types of lube. Because so many spaces in the AR receiver give the dust no place to go, I'm predicting the M14, run almost dry, will perform better than anything else out there, in strings of 500 rounds between cleanings.

The Valmet with decent mags will come in a very close second, or will be equally jam-free at zero. But in .223, it might rip a casehead right off when the chamber gets a bit dirty. Extraction is a bit...vigorous.
 
I work with a guy that was an infantry captain in the Gulf War. He was a stickler about making sure his men kept their A2 M-16 rifles clean, and made sure that they took care of maintenance. Because of this, he has remarked that malfunctions were rare.

He respects the M-16 and he just bought a civilian AR-15 Bushmaster just awhile back for farm coyote control and fun. He completely trusts the weapon system, as long as you keep it reasonably clean. Another thing he stressed was to make sure to wipe away any excess lube and cleaner.

One of the things often forgotten, when these threads about the M-16, which always seem to evolve into a comparison with the AK, is accuracy and knock down power. The M-16 and the .223 is clearly superior. I have an AR-15 Bushy Shorty and an AK Romanian SAR-1. The AK is so crude regarding ergonomics and iron sight systems that I rarely shoot it.
 
Brad, that's a question that I've wondered about for quite a while...why the heck didn't the Russkies put aperature sights on the AK?

Are there aftermarket aperature sights available?
 
One very important thing that isnt being addressed is acuracy. I know that the AK is reputed to be "combat accurate" but, from the people ive actually seen shoot them they dont all even make that grade. Personally i wouldnt be too happy with a 10moa rifle no matter how well it worked. The truly horrible iron sights (not to mention short sight radius) dont help much either. Compare that to the really nice peeps on the m16 and the optics options of an M4 and its no contest.
 
After reading all this, I think our best bet is to return to the uber reliable, uber powerful and uber accurate 1903 Springfield

WildsimplesolutionAlaska
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

W
  • Locked
u.s. troops like ak's?
2
Replies
40
Views
2K
jercamp45
J
A
  • Locked
'Iraq shows Kalashnikovs are still the best'
2 3 4 5
Replies
124
Views
6K
KaceCoyote
K
B
  • Locked
Problems with M4's
2 3 4
Replies
78
Views
4K
Art Eatman
A
O
  • Locked
Price Check on SSR-99?
Replies
1
Views
950
762x51
762x51
2
  • Locked
M14 in Iraq
Replies
11
Views
4K
1 old 0311
1
Back
Top