Just curious, what's the FBI duty gun?

[slicknickns]

I'm pretty sure the official FBI round is the .40. right? I read on wikipedia that the FBI allows it's officers (are they called that?) to carry the XD. Well anyways say, if a field agent was being issued a handgun what would it likely be? Could he pick his own? What about caliber?

What about DEA, the evil ATF, INS, etc. you know the alphabet soup organizations.

 

[Desertscout]

All the FBI agents around here carry the Glock 22 for and the 27 for a BUG.

 

[TireFryer]

I thought that FBI carried the Springfield Armory Professional 1911 .45ACP?

http://springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-1911-pro.shtml

 

[Phenom]

The FBI's HRT carries the Springfield while the "Special Agents" carry Glocks

 

[buzz_knox]

FBI SWAT (including HRT) carries the Pro. The standard duty weapon is the Glock 22 and the 23, with the 27 often serving as backup.

And one FBI SWAT agent I know vastly prefers his 23 to the Pro.

 

[obiwan1]

I think their issue load is the 165 gr at 950fps in the .40. Compare that with the Border Patrol load of 155gr at 1200fps!

 

[pablo45]

Some of the fbi guy's i know still carry the p228 and the sig pro2022. I have heard carrying the glock and springfield but that is the very few that like the bigger gun's.Since alot of them don't tend to draw there weapon's as much as a regular police officer i know they like the more compact style's. I know that the dhs part of the fbi are going to be issued or are going to start being issued the hk uspc or the p2000. Just like all the other dhs agent's and officer's except t.s.a.

 

[albanian]

When I went to the FBI building in DC, they had an agent put on a shooting demo. He said they are issued Glock 23s and they have the internal Lasermax as well. I don't know if all the agents gets the Lasermax treatment but his G-23 had one and he could put all his shots into a golf ball size hole rapid fire. I was impressed and also sold on the laser idea.

I think Glocks are good guns but they don't fit me worth a dam. I like my Beretta 92fs with Laser grips. I also prefer my XD-9 to the Glocks because they are more ergonomic. If Glock would try and design a grip that felt half way decent in my hand, I would buy one.

 

[Harley Quinn]

10 lite or heavy?

What happened to the big one, the 10mm?

Most police in the USA carry Glock's

HQ
PS: Hint I know I am being

 

[Reyn]

Why is it that when a caliber war comes up some people refer back to the FBI hangun wounding document? Some folks use this to reinforce their point that caliber isnt that important. It mainly comes up when comparing the 9mm to the other common calibers. Seems if thats the case then why would they choose the .40? Im asking sincerly.

 

[defiant73a]

What happened to the big one, the 10mm?

They found something that worked better (or at least as well in a more "user friendly" package).

Seems if thats the case then why would they choose the .40? Im asking sincerly.

Because it is easier to "sell" a new weapon and calibre "upgrade" to the powers that be than just a new weapon.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Why is it that when a caliber war comes up some people refer back to the FBI hangun wounding document? Some folks use this to reinforce their point that caliber isnt that important. It mainly comes up when comparing the 9mm to the other common calibers. Seems if thats the case then why would they choose the .40? Im asking sincerly.

Blaming the caliber of the weapons involved was much easier, bureaucratically speaking, than blaming inadequate training and the assorted procedural and tactical errors committed by the officers killed in that shootout. The caliber issue is a no fault, no foul sort of thing. Really addressing what went wrong would have jeopardized careers or involved speaking ill of the dead.

 

[Eightball]

If Glock would try and design a grip that felt half way decent in my hand, I would buy one.

Agreed.

Really addressing what went wrong would have jeopardized careers or involved speaking ill of the dead.

Isn't it sad when we won't risk offending someone to get at the source of the problem that results in life-risking errors?

 

[RandomMan]

I thought the standard FBI weapon was the Sig P229? Isn't that one currently issued to several government agencies. I could be wrong, it's quite possibly the Glock 22/23. I do know the standard weapon is in .40 S&W.

As has been addressed, but should be clarified, both REGIONAL SWAT teams AND HRT are issued the Springfield Professional Model (aka Bureau Model).

-Rob

 

[defiant73a]

Nope. I don't believe the P229 was ever a FBI issue weapon (though a couple of small federal agencies issue it). The most common federal weapon (non-DoD) is still the Glock. HK and SIG--the big winners in the DHS contract--will probably become more common (supplanting Glock) in the future.

 

[Soybomb]

Why is it that when a caliber war comes up some people refer back to the FBI hangun wounding document? Some folks use this to reinforce their point that caliber isnt that important. It mainly comes up when comparing the 9mm to the other common calibers. Seems if thats the case then why would they choose the .40? Im asking sincerly.

Its an excellent document detailing the way handguns create person stopping wounds to me.

From what I've seen the FBI started issuing the 1076 in late 1990 and was relatively short lived. I don't believe the high performance 9mm jhp's we have today existed then. The numbers I've seen quoted from their testing in dec 1988 showed only 67.5% of 147gr 9mm loads penetrated at least 12" in gel. With no 9mm load suitable to meet FBI penetration specs downgrading 10mm to .40 was the next best option. So in short the same reasons they went with 10mm over 9mm to begin with are probably the same reasons they didn't go to 9mm a few years later. Times have changed, jhp's perform a lot better in 9mm and its a more viable option now.

 

[defiant73a]

You are confused (or at least have your timelines confused). After their brief flirtation with 10mm, the FBI went to the 9x19, and then from the 9x19 to current issue .40 S&W. The issue weapon flow was: S&W M13 (though usually loaded with .38 Specials), S&W 1076 (very briefly), SIG P228 (9x19), Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W).

 

[isp2605]

I don't believe the high performance 9mm jhp's we have today existed then.

The Federal BPLE was around several years prior to 1990 along with the Winchester 115 +P+. We'd been carrying that stuff for several years prior to the Miami shooting. Our people went to Quantico and took the data from our shootings. BU wouldn't include either in their tests as they were sold on the 147 Subsonic. The Miami shootout involved the 115 gr Silvertip and they were not about to listen to results involving other 115 gr ammo.

I know that the dhs part of the fbi are going to be issued or are going to start being issued the hk uspc or the p2000. Just like all the other dhs agent's and officer's except t.s.a.

None of the FBI comes under DHS. FBI is part of DOJ. DHS and DOJ are 2 separate, independent agencies.

He said they are issued Glock 23s and they have the internal Lasermax as well.

The lasermax is not issued. The SA doing the demo no doubt tricked out his own gun for the demo.

I thought the standard FBI weapon was the Sig P229?

Back when the BU issued SIGs it was the 226 in 9mm.
The current issue is Glock 22. In certain circumstances the 23 could be issued. The BU also has an approved list of personally owned sidearms SAs can be authorized to carry.

The issue weapon flow was: S&W M13 (though usually loaded with .38 Specials), S&W 1076 (very briefly), SIG P228 (9x19), Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W).

Left out between the M13 and the 1076 they issued SIG 226 in 9mm. After the 1076 was pulled they went back to the 226 for a period before going to Glock.

 

[cookekdjr]

You are confused (or at least have your timelines confused). After their brief flirtation with 10mm, the FBI went to the 9x19, and then from the 9x19 to current issue .40 S&W. The issue weapon flow was: S&W M13 (though usually loaded with .38 Specials), S&W 1076 (very briefly), SIG P228 (9x19), Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W).

I can personally verify the M13-p228-G22. Many still carry the p228 by choice, but most carry G22 and the G27 on the ankle. I have heard they carried G19's at some point, but can't remember the details.
-David
P.S. they have alot more goodies they practice with, too...

 

[Harley Quinn]

isp2065

And I thought the LAPD was complicated regarding the # of various handguns they had/were issued

HQ

 

[Soybomb]

The Federal BPLE was around several years prior to 1990 along with the Winchester 115 +P+

Would that load have met their 12" penetration standard though? I guess I could rephrase that better and say that to my knowledge there was no round that met the fbi's penetration criteria and performed well. I was under the impression in 9mm they were pushing an unimpressive federal 147gr.

As to the sig sauer thing, were those issued in large numbers? I was led to believe those were only issued to new classes for just a couple years after cancelling the s&w contract before the glock contract and never a full out replacement program.

 

[isp2605]

And I thought the LAPD was complicated regarding the # of various handguns they had/were issued

The BU really had a longer list of authorized guns back in the 70s. The issued was the Model 10 pencil barrel. Still saw some of the older guys carrying issued Colt 4". Can't recall the model. I'm not up on Colt designations. The usual personal purchase was either 2.5" Mod 19 or J frames. Worked with one SA who was just barely tall enough to make minimum height. He carried a 3.5" Mod 27. We figured he was compensating for his shortness by carrying a big gun. Saw a few 4" Mod 19s and a few Colt Dick Specials. No one was authorized to carry an auto back then, altho I know a couple who did. One in NYC carried a pair of BHPs in double shoulder rigs. Another carried a 59. They weren't carried in the office but as soon as they left on went the autos.

S&W M13 (though usually loaded with .38 Specials),

BU policy in the 70s and early 80s was all guns could only be loaded with .38 Spl 158 gr LSWCHP+P. If an SA was carrying something in .357 then they could carry .357 for reloads but ammo in the gun was to be the .38 loading.

 

[CornCod]

The FBI got rid of the 10mm because they were so heavy that agents were carrying the things around in briefcases; a dangerous thing to do in federal law enforcement.

 

[RandomMan]

The BU also has an approved list of personally owned sidearms SAs can be authorized to carry.

Interesting, very interesting. Any idea what is on this list? I would assume past issue weapons 1076, maybe a M13 for older agents, but are there other non-previous issue handguns on the list?

-Rob

 

[isp2605]

Would that load have met their 12" penetration standard though? I guess I could rephrase that better and say that to my knowledge there was no round that met the fbi's penetration criteria and performed well. I was under the impression in 9mm they were pushing an unimpressive federal 147gr.

When the BU went to the 115 Silvertip our range folks talked to their range folks about that rd. About 6 yrs before Miami we were issued the Silvertip and it was a rapid expanding, low penetration rd. Back then that was the general concensus of what was wanted. We had 2 Troops involved in a shooting near Joliet, IL where the ST had a failure to penetrate/failure to stop. Our range guys reviewed the results then we went to the Fed BP and later BPLE. We all got the call within a few days of the Joliet shooting and told to carrying anything else but the ST until our supply of new ammo could be sent to us. When the BU went to the ST our range guys discussed that Joliet shooting with the BU guys. The BU back then was preaching the RII and Computer Man model which was all about rapid expansion, energy dump, and low penetration. They basically told our people that the ST was exactly what they wanted. So our guys packed up the case and came home. Then in 1986 the BU found out what we had learned 6 yrs earlier.
Following the BU's "rapid expansion/energy dump/low penetration" philosophy their pendulum swung to the other extreme where they preached deep penetration only. After a while the BU has come back a bit more to center.

As to the sig sauer thing, were those issued in large numbers? I was led to believe those were only issued to new classes for just a couple years after cancelling the s&w contract before the glock contract and never a full out replacement program.

For a while, prior to the 1076, the SIGs were about all you saw SAs carrying. I don't recall the number of years but it was a fair run. Then after the 1076 was pulled they went back to the 226 for issue for a while until they went Glock. Not everyone went to 1076 so quite a few were still carrying the 226 during that period. You may be thinking of the 2nd go around for the 226 after the 1076.