pierrebazukhov
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Easily the 1911. Don't get me wrong, they're ok, but I can't see spending more than $500 for one. Say what you want about Glocks, but they do work out of the box for $500+/-.
Most over rated pistol
- Thread starter Lobotomy Boy
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Lobotomy Boy
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Sean, I thought about this even before you posted. If an expensive gun requires two more hours of machining and two more hours of hand assembly, and say this labor came at a cost of $75 per hour including overhead (that would work out to a salary of $60K per year for the person actually doing the work), and say the expensive gun used $50 more of materials than the cheaper gun, then the expensive gun would cost the manufacturer $300 more to produce.
Now say Ruger sells it's gun at a wholesale price of $250 with a 60 percent profit margin. Say Kimber sells a gun wholesale for $1000. If it cost Ruger $100 to build the gun and Kimber $400, Kimber's getting roughly the same 60 percent margin on the gun as Ruger, but it's net income is almost five times as much as Ruger's. In turn, it can only turn out 20 percent as many guns as Ruger given its labor intensive method of manufacturing so the companies ultimately have roughly the same profitability. This is reasonable and fair on the part of both manufacturers.
If a store charges $400 for a P90 Ruger and $1200 for the hand-crafted Kimber, they have a similar net profit on each gun, though the margin is much better on the Ruger. This is perfectly reasonable on the part of the dealer, and these are very fair prices.
Now the consumer has to decide which gun fits his or her budget. If the buyer has enough fun money to buy the Kimber without missing a house payment or neglecting his or her bills, then that is a reasonable choice. But for most of us value--is the Kimber three times better than the Ruger?--has to be part of any discussion of merit.
Now say Ruger sells it's gun at a wholesale price of $250 with a 60 percent profit margin. Say Kimber sells a gun wholesale for $1000. If it cost Ruger $100 to build the gun and Kimber $400, Kimber's getting roughly the same 60 percent margin on the gun as Ruger, but it's net income is almost five times as much as Ruger's. In turn, it can only turn out 20 percent as many guns as Ruger given its labor intensive method of manufacturing so the companies ultimately have roughly the same profitability. This is reasonable and fair on the part of both manufacturers.
If a store charges $400 for a P90 Ruger and $1200 for the hand-crafted Kimber, they have a similar net profit on each gun, though the margin is much better on the Ruger. This is perfectly reasonable on the part of the dealer, and these are very fair prices.
Now the consumer has to decide which gun fits his or her budget. If the buyer has enough fun money to buy the Kimber without missing a house payment or neglecting his or her bills, then that is a reasonable choice. But for most of us value--is the Kimber three times better than the Ruger?--has to be part of any discussion of merit.
Sean Smith
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Except that you have vastly under-estimated the difference in material and labor costs, at least at the high end. Low-end guns take ALOT of material shortcuts and use very little skilled labor; high-end guns use much more expensive materials, more labor, and the cost of the labor is much higher. Furthermore, you are basically making the numbers up anyway. Unless you are working for one of the companies, you don't really "know" what they do or don't spend to make each gun, anyway.
Lobotomy Boy
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I'm not exactly making up numbers. I'm using a fairly standard business model of a 60 percent profit margin and working the numbers backwards from there, based on the retail prices at discount chains like Sportsman's Warehouse.
I could accuse you of making up numbers also. I think you are vastly overestimating the prices of raw materials. Exactly how much cheaper is the alloy used in a P89 frame than the stainless steel used in a high-end Kimber? Do you have any hard information regarding material costs for producing guns? I would be very curious to learn what they are.
Generally in manufacturing the material costs are a small portion of the overall costs of goods, especially when those goods are manufactured in high-cost labor markets like the United States and Europe. I can't imagine an employee working on Ruger's assembly line earns much more than $60K per year. Perhaps the Kimber employee does earn more than that, but the lower overhead of the smaller Kimber facility means the overall cost per unit of labor is likely similar--it costs a lot less to turn the lights on in a small mom-and-pop shop than it does to turn them on in a giant factory.
Thanks in advance for any further information you may provide.
I could accuse you of making up numbers also. I think you are vastly overestimating the prices of raw materials. Exactly how much cheaper is the alloy used in a P89 frame than the stainless steel used in a high-end Kimber? Do you have any hard information regarding material costs for producing guns? I would be very curious to learn what they are.
Generally in manufacturing the material costs are a small portion of the overall costs of goods, especially when those goods are manufactured in high-cost labor markets like the United States and Europe. I can't imagine an employee working on Ruger's assembly line earns much more than $60K per year. Perhaps the Kimber employee does earn more than that, but the lower overhead of the smaller Kimber facility means the overall cost per unit of labor is likely similar--it costs a lot less to turn the lights on in a small mom-and-pop shop than it does to turn them on in a giant factory.
Thanks in advance for any further information you may provide.
cratz2
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They are perfectly good guns, but I don't like the USPs at all. Not even a little bit. Maybe if I carried one open, I wouldn't mind but when I look at a $300 - $700 gun, esp plastic, I think about how it would do as a concealed carry item and the USP is pretty far from what I would want to carry concealed. But in my experience, they are totally reliable and of good quality and I like that the offer different trigger operations, but I've never handled one that had better than a questionable trigger.
rauchman
Member
Interesting thread.
I guess I'm in the minority here, but I have to disagree about the USP's. Personally, I think they are great. I want to own many more of them. Not because of a SpecOps marketing ploy from HK, but because I can shoot this pistol really well. I have a USPF45, and find it to be incredibly accurate. I love how the controls are setup. I also really love how they work every time. I've got roughly 2500 rounds through this pistol, and have NEVER had a problem. I don't understand how this would be considered overrated. Not to say this is the only gun I have experience with that works. I have absolutely zero complaints functionally from Sig's and Beretta 92's as well. I've had stopages with non 9mm Glocks, 1911's, and CZ's. Never on the USP's, Sig's, or Beretta 92's. Maybe folks don't like the triggers on the USP, in the same way some folks don't like the triggers on Glocks. I can understand that, but I don't feel that this makes a pistol overrated one way or another. That is more of a personal preference than anything.
I'm sure I'm going to receive hell for this one, but to me the most overrated pistol is the Browining High Power. I bought a brand new one a year and a half ago. It, without a doubt, had the worst trigger of any gun out of the box that I have ever used. I took out the magazine safety. It still sucked. Then I actually fired the thing and got introduced to the concept of hammer bite. I really wanted to like the pistol, but compared to what else is out there nowadays, I just don't get it.
I guess I'm in the minority here, but I have to disagree about the USP's. Personally, I think they are great. I want to own many more of them. Not because of a SpecOps marketing ploy from HK, but because I can shoot this pistol really well. I have a USPF45, and find it to be incredibly accurate. I love how the controls are setup. I also really love how they work every time. I've got roughly 2500 rounds through this pistol, and have NEVER had a problem. I don't understand how this would be considered overrated. Not to say this is the only gun I have experience with that works. I have absolutely zero complaints functionally from Sig's and Beretta 92's as well. I've had stopages with non 9mm Glocks, 1911's, and CZ's. Never on the USP's, Sig's, or Beretta 92's. Maybe folks don't like the triggers on the USP, in the same way some folks don't like the triggers on Glocks. I can understand that, but I don't feel that this makes a pistol overrated one way or another. That is more of a personal preference than anything.
I'm sure I'm going to receive hell for this one, but to me the most overrated pistol is the Browining High Power. I bought a brand new one a year and a half ago. It, without a doubt, had the worst trigger of any gun out of the box that I have ever used. I took out the magazine safety. It still sucked. Then I actually fired the thing and got introduced to the concept of hammer bite. I really wanted to like the pistol, but compared to what else is out there nowadays, I just don't get it.
Dont overlook the importance (and cost) of research and development. The fact is that while the manufacturing cost of two differently priced pistols may be similar. The company that designed, researched, tested, and took the risk of marketing a whole new design is investing a LOT more money than a company that is simply remanufacturing an existing design. (on a side note this is one qualm i have with highly priced 1911 clones). It also SOMEWHAT justifies the prices paid for H&K and Glock products.
Lobotomy Boy
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Good point. You would think that development costs for the 1911 would have been amortized by now.
ReadyontheRight
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I would have to say the Glock. Great pistol and great design, but overpriced IMHO. Also -- the original concept of 17+1 rounds was neutered by the AWB.
I also got bit by a G21 once (I'm a little too used to the 1911 beavertail.
)
I also got bit by a G21 once (I'm a little too used to the 1911 beavertail.
)Black Snowman
Member
Over-rated by who?
This forum, I think maybe the Makarov. I think it comes up in every CCW thread I've ever seen
Gun rags? Definitely the 1911. Great guns, but they shouldn't be on 90% of the covers.
Gun stores? Whatever the guy behind the counter owns.
You can pick a gun for each sub-forum on here too. Revolver forum, any automatic, Automatic forum, any wheel gun, rifle forum, any handgun, etc . . .
Like Einstein pointed out, it's relative
This forum, I think maybe the Makarov. I think it comes up in every CCW thread I've ever seen
Gun rags? Definitely the 1911. Great guns, but they shouldn't be on 90% of the covers.
Gun stores? Whatever the guy behind the counter owns.
You can pick a gun for each sub-forum on here too. Revolver forum, any automatic, Automatic forum, any wheel gun, rifle forum, any handgun, etc . . .
Like Einstein pointed out, it's relative
Sean Smith
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Lobotomy Boy,
Kimber ain't "the high end" I was talking about.
Obvious cost difference: Ruger uses castings for everything, Kimber uses CNC machined forgings for the frame and slide.
Kimber ain't "the high end" I was talking about.
Obvious cost difference: Ruger uses castings for everything, Kimber uses CNC machined forgings for the frame and slide.
artherd
member
There's fixed overhead too.
Kimber's CNC machine likely cost them somewhere between $500k and $5mil.
Kimber's CNC machine likely cost them somewhere between $500k and $5mil.
rauchman,
I'm with you on all counts there. My favorite handgun (from a shooting/reliability/functionality standpoint) is a full sized H&K USP .40 S&W. I own a lot of handguns, and I've yet to come across one that shoots as well as that one. I've spent a lot more on other handguns, but few have performed as well for me as that one.
People can say what they will about them, they work for me and work well.
Shake
I'm with you on all counts there. My favorite handgun (from a shooting/reliability/functionality standpoint) is a full sized H&K USP .40 S&W. I own a lot of handguns, and I've yet to come across one that shoots as well as that one. I've spent a lot more on other handguns, but few have performed as well for me as that one.
People can say what they will about them, they work for me and work well.
Shake
Penforhire
Member
Good thread idea. It is subjective (over-rated by whom?) and price has to be a factor.
Because I'd say Glock in a heatbeat but knock $200 or more off the prices and it wouldn't be so bad. Sure a G17 functions well but so do many other makes. The fan-boys are as rabid as the 1911 defenders.
Custom 1911's over $2.5K are over-rated. Way too much money for something you can't have sex and won't group better than a cheap rifle...
Because I'd say Glock in a heatbeat but knock $200 or more off the prices and it wouldn't be so bad. Sure a G17 functions well but so do many other makes. The fan-boys are as rabid as the 1911 defenders.
Custom 1911's over $2.5K are over-rated. Way too much money for something you can't have sex and won't group better than a cheap rifle...
CumminsPower
Member
Marshall said: "Wilson, Baer, Caspian, etc.
I can make a bad guy wish he was a good guy if I am using a pistol under a $1,000.00 just as I can with one that $3,000.00"
I fail to understand how you could call a Caspian over-rated since they are basically a company that does not build complete guns. In this case, the gun would only be as good as the smith who put it together. As far as a gun being over-rated by price, you would have to classify within what you wanted to do with it. Carry? Compete? Range Queen? Bullseye?
My pick would be Glock, Kimber, Baer, and Wilson
I can make a bad guy wish he was a good guy if I am using a pistol under a $1,000.00 just as I can with one that $3,000.00"
I fail to understand how you could call a Caspian over-rated since they are basically a company that does not build complete guns. In this case, the gun would only be as good as the smith who put it together. As far as a gun being over-rated by price, you would have to classify within what you wanted to do with it. Carry? Compete? Range Queen? Bullseye?
My pick would be Glock, Kimber, Baer, and Wilson
Feanaro
Member
In order for a pistol to be over-rated, the capability of the pistol must be thought to be higher than they actually are. But who decides what, exactly, the pistols are capable of? Some people(myself included) cannot shoot Glocks to save our lives. They seem like bulky hunks of polymer with the ergonomics of a brick and the accuracy of a Derringer. But then again, some people are dedicated to them, almost to the point of seeming like crazed lunatics.
I think all pistol owners, to an extent, over-rate their "baby"(Or babies). Some people to a lesser or greater extent. Some hold the Glock/1911/USP/S&W Revolvers/whatever on an altar, all powerful, perfect and untouchable. Some just think their pistol is better. Some over-rate some specific facet of the pistol, such as the trigger, the cost, the reliabity or whatever is their fancy. The truth is that no matter how much you rant, rave, froth and foam over a pistol, there will always be someone for whom it will not shoot well, will not function well, will not be cheap enough etc, ad nausem into infinity.
A thing that's value and performance is entirely or mostly subjective cannot be really over-rated, because it all depends on whose hands hold it.
On a side-note, I consider S&Ws, Glocks, Berettas and some 1911 variants over-rated. And anything pistol that costs more than 1000 US dollars.
I think all pistol owners, to an extent, over-rate their "baby"(Or babies). Some people to a lesser or greater extent. Some hold the Glock/1911/USP/S&W Revolvers/whatever on an altar, all powerful, perfect and untouchable. Some just think their pistol is better. Some over-rate some specific facet of the pistol, such as the trigger, the cost, the reliabity or whatever is their fancy. The truth is that no matter how much you rant, rave, froth and foam over a pistol, there will always be someone for whom it will not shoot well, will not function well, will not be cheap enough etc, ad nausem into infinity.
A thing that's value and performance is entirely or mostly subjective cannot be really over-rated, because it all depends on whose hands hold it.
On a side-note, I consider S&Ws, Glocks, Berettas and some 1911 variants over-rated. And anything pistol that costs more than 1000 US dollars.
Marshall
Member
I agree. However, Each of these catagories can be performed equally as well with $1,000.00-$1,500.00 pistol as a $3,000.00 plus pistol, in the right hands.
Sean Smith
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I dunno, if you want to hang in bullseye there aren't too many sub-$1,000 guns shooting <=1.5"@ 50 yards. In fact, I can confidently say no factory handgun for that price can be expected deliver the required accuracy. If the gun improves your scores, it ain't overrated... and real bullseye competition depends on the quality of the hardware (along with ALOT of skill, of course). Good luck finding any WINNER at bullseye shooting cheap hardware.
Accuracy guaranteed Baer and Rock River Arms guns are going to be from $1,800-$2,000. Basic Baer and RRA guns are going to be about $1,500 and "only" be good enough for 3" @ 50 yards.
The best IPSC/USPSA shooters gravitate to the best hardware, not just the scrubs trying to buy an extra tenth of a second or sneak another shot into the "A" zone. Some guy wins the Bianchi Cup with a $3,000 SV (for example), was their SV "overrated"? The guy could probably shoot rings around you with anything with a working Hi-Point. But he WON with the $3,000 SV. Think he (or the people he beat) is calling the SV overrated?
Competitive advantage can be expensive. But if you win, it is hard to call it "overrated."
The most over-hyped pistol?
Currently – probably the Glock, with the USP close behind and the 1911 pressing for a photo finish.
I’m not that old, but I’ve lived through the .357 hype, the 9mm hype, the .40 hype, the 10mm hype, the Dirty Harry Model 29 hype, the .45 hype, the “wondernine†hype, the 1911 hype, the Glock hype and the USP hype. Conversely, I’ve seen the belittling of revolvers, 1911s, 357 (Mag and SIG) .38 special, 9mm, 10mm, any bigbore cartridge (especially from a revolver), any revolver, Glocks, any domestic handgun, any foreign handgun. I’m sure I’ve missed a bunch of the mudslinging.
Currently – probably the Glock, with the USP close behind and the 1911 pressing for a photo finish.
I’m not that old, but I’ve lived through the .357 hype, the 9mm hype, the .40 hype, the 10mm hype, the Dirty Harry Model 29 hype, the .45 hype, the “wondernine†hype, the 1911 hype, the Glock hype and the USP hype. Conversely, I’ve seen the belittling of revolvers, 1911s, 357 (Mag and SIG) .38 special, 9mm, 10mm, any bigbore cartridge (especially from a revolver), any revolver, Glocks, any domestic handgun, any foreign handgun. I’m sure I’ve missed a bunch of the mudslinging.
rock jock
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Anything I don't currently own.
ECVMatt
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It has got to be the 1911...
I think they are good guns, but they need too much tweeking to make them work. Even once the gun has been worked over it seems a bit fragile to me. I am also a lefty and do not like to spend another 50 to 100 dollars to add a safety so I can properly use the gun. I will alway a few 1911's in my collection, but they are not the end all be all guns that the magazines make them out to be. Heck, come to think of it I just bought a $160 makarov that works better than my Les Baer that used to go full auto on occasion. Somehow it just doesn't seem right to send a brand new $1600 gun back to get fixed.
Matt
I think they are good guns, but they need too much tweeking to make them work. Even once the gun has been worked over it seems a bit fragile to me. I am also a lefty and do not like to spend another 50 to 100 dollars to add a safety so I can properly use the gun. I will alway a few 1911's in my collection, but they are not the end all be all guns that the magazines make them out to be. Heck, come to think of it I just bought a $160 makarov that works better than my Les Baer that used to go full auto on occasion. Somehow it just doesn't seem right to send a brand new $1600 gun back to get fixed.
Matt
I've had a couple Kimbers that cost me over $1000 give me all kinds of issues. Yet my $380 Springfield Mil-Spec just keeps on humming. Go figure.
Want my vote for most overrated handgun? SIG P22x series. Yes they work well, but to me their ergonomics and DA trigger suck, and there are less expensive guns out there that can do the same job.
Want my vote for most overrated handgun? SIG P22x series. Yes they work well, but to me their ergonomics and DA trigger suck, and there are less expensive guns out there that can do the same job.
ECVMatt
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rikwriter...
I am sure that you are the luckiest 1911 owner and I am the most unlucky. When I think of all the parts that people sell to get better reliability out of the 1911, it makes me kinda wonder why it does not come with these parts. I also often see gunsmiths offer "reliablity packages" or "jobs" for the 1911. Anyways I am glad to here that someone has had better luck than me. To me a gun should work right out of the box. For me and my group of shooting friends the 1911 has not done that.
Matt
I am sure that you are the luckiest 1911 owner and I am the most unlucky. When I think of all the parts that people sell to get better reliability out of the 1911, it makes me kinda wonder why it does not come with these parts. I also often see gunsmiths offer "reliablity packages" or "jobs" for the 1911. Anyways I am glad to here that someone has had better luck than me. To me a gun should work right out of the box. For me and my group of shooting friends the 1911 has not done that.
Matt
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