Pistol Choices II

[Gryffydd]

Feel free to write why you think the 1911 is not outdated

Because it still works. It's reliable, accurate, ergonomic, and attractive. What else does it need? I would ask you to say why it's outdated. And don't say because it's old. That's not the same thing. And don't say because it isn't DA/SA or because it doesn't have a decocker or it isn't made out of polymer...those all have their place but a gun isn't outdated because it doesn't have them, and there are plenty people myself included who don't want many of the new "features"

 

[MT GUNNY]

I didn't know there was a Manufacture named " Any 1911". I think that option distorts the whole out come of your Question. I personally chose "S&W" for their 1911.

 

[tipoc]

An odd poll. A Colt what? A Kahr what? A Sig what? A 1911 by who?

The results become meaningless seems to me.

tipoc

 

[MM60]

Because it still works. It's reliable, accurate, ergonomic, and attractive. What else does it need? I would ask you to say why it's outdated. And don't say because it's old. That's not the same thing. And don't say because it isn't DA/SA or because it doesn't have a decocker or it isn't made out of polymer...those all have their place but a gun isn't outdated because it doesn't have them, and there are plenty people myself included who don't want many of the new "features"

The very definition of the term "outdated" is something that has been replaced by a new and improved version. You can't say the 1911 isn't outdated just because you don't like the features on newer and improved handgun designs. That would be like saying that black and white TVs aren't outdated because you don't want color, or that horse-drawn carriages aren't outdated because you don't want a motor. Are you implying that the Thompson sub-machinegun is not outdated because it works and it's reliable, accurate, ergonomic, and attractive? If it's not outdated, then why doesn't anybody use it anymore? It's because there are many better sub-machineguns available now. You're basically telling me that you don't care how handguns have improved over the last hundred years; you're just going to keep using an antiquated design. It's the same thing as it would have been in the 1800's if you had always carried a cap and ball revolver, and then when S&W full-cartridge designs became widely used - you said "the cap and ball revolver isn't outdated because I don't want their new (and much improved) feature". Does anybody see the lack of logic here?

Also, I am well aware that 1911 is not a manufacturer. It is a generic design made by many companies. That's why I didn't include it as any particular company's model. For any of you who voted Colt, S&W, Sig, Springfield, etc for that company's particular version of the 1911 - which are all basically the same, why did you not choose the "any 1911" option? Did it not occur to you that that option includes all 1911's from all manufacturers?

 

[searcher451]

I'm a Walther guy through and through, despite Umarex's parental controls, and am proud to own a number of Walther handguns that fit the forever bill just nicely.

 

[Gryffydd]

The very definition of the term "outdated" is something that has been replaced by a new and improved version.

And what can a Sig P220 do that a 1911 can't again?
All your cap and ball, horse drawn carriage etc. examples are just silly as a car can do things a carriage can't. There is a massive difference between a cap and ball revolver and a modern firearm. A Sig P220 and a 1911 are both 8+1 single stack .45 acp autos. Unless you get a 10mm 1911. (Oh, can't do that in a Sig...) Both are highly accurate and reliable. My point is that you can say DA/SA is an improvement, but that's a very arguable opinion. Your straw arguments have a very clear and objective difference between the old designs and the new one. However, simply being SAO does not automatically make a gun out dated.

You can't say the 1911 isn't outdated just because you don't like the features on newer and improved handgun designs.

And likewise you can't say it IS outdated just because your tastes lie elsewhere.

Does anybody see the lack of logic here?

Don't worry, we do.

 

[wesessiah]

I think that the poll results at the top of this page show much better logic than the results of the original poll. As we can see, 1911's are not considered by an overwhelming majority to be the best all-around carry pistol, as they are in third place. The popularity of the Glock, Sig, S&W, Springfield (I'm guessing mostly for the XD), and Ruger seem logical - especially considering that votes for the S&W and Ruger probably include votes for revolvers and semi-autos combined. CZ has only received 2 votes out of 77 - it seems as though, when able to choose only one handgun, most people wouldn't choose a CZ despite their large fan following on THR.

the 2 have gone up since you posted this, but the original thread wasn't vague at all. it seems as though you just didn't like the results. you specifically stated someone doesn't have to own the pistol. just going back and forth and looking at the names in the poll results, there are a lot of people who voted in this one that didn't in the other, and people who voted in the other and not this one. btw, there isn't some irregular fan following here at thr, it seems you don't venture over to thefiringline, or glocktalk... yes, even the guys at glocktalk seem to hold cz in high regard. you may not like any 1911 (i don't either for that matter, they're overpriced, and don't provide any significant advantage other than being a solid competition piece) but someone has to be in serious denial to even act like the 1911 isn't the most popular thing out there, maybe with the exception of glock. so many manufacturers making them is a testament to that.

 

[jackpinesavages]

My Dan Wesson CTG .44

 

[kingmt]

I just wanted to through my 2 cents in also. My understanding was to pick a gun for a life time & not which one we thought was better. There is several guns I like by different companies. The one I picked is the one that I shoot the best but that doesn't mean it is the best.

As far as leaning the poll I agree. It has owners & wanttabes of 1911's all pooling together no mater the manufacture. I think that gives the a huge advantage.

Last of all it's just a thread to talk about your thoughts not to take away the gun you prefer.

I am really surprised at the way this is going so far. I know Glock would be ahead but the other numbers weren't what I had expected.

 

[porterdog]

G29


That is all.

 

[JTQ]

For any of you who voted Colt, S&W, Sig, Springfield, etc for that company's particular version of the 1911 - which are all basically the same, why did you not choose the "any 1911" option? Did it not occur to you that that option includes all 1911's from all manufacturers?

You clearly are not a "1911 guy" to suggest these are all the same.

Colt is the original and has it's own fan base. Most Colt models have the Series 80 firing pin safety.

Springfield's don't have a firing pin safety, but do have the ILS and a non-standard firing pin, and are made in Brazil.

S&W and Sig have external extractors. S&W has a Mochak designed firing pin safety deactivated by the grip safety. Sig has a firing pin safety that operates off the trigger like the Colt Series 80.

To a 1911 user, most of these features are significant in one way or another. Some are must have's for one purchaser, others are automatic disqualifiers for others. It does make a difference who makes the 1911.

I realize you probably don't understand the significance of these features, but you could think of them as being equivalent to a magazine disconnect safety. Some want it, others won't have it, but it does make a difference.

I realize in the pistol business both of your favorites, Sig and H&K, really only make semi-auto's, but manufactures like Ruger and S&W have a huge diversity in the handguns they make.

You keep mentioning how the H&K is used by so many police and military and the 1911 is not as if this is somehow a point in favor of H&K parts availability. Have you ever walked into your local gun store and tried to find some kind of H&K part, even just a magazine? They are just not there. You could probably go to a couple of gun stores and assemble enough parts off the shelves to put together an entire 1911 from scratch.

It does seem as if your only point is to try and bash the 1911. If it doesn't work for you don't worry about it. There are millions of 1911's in the world and they are loved by many, for whatever reason. We understand you don't get it and it doesn't look like you are going to. Just give it a rest and move on.

 

[easyg]

One handgun for the rest of my life, for all situations....

Glock G22

And a Storm Lake 357Sig barrel to go with it.

 

[gbelleh]

What, no Lorcin on the poll??

I voted Sig only because if I had to have only one forever, I'd want it to be as versatile as possible, so a Sig P250 with all caliber kits would cover many different size and caliber needs.

 

[GunNut]

I'll take a Glock 19, 23 or 32. Figure one of those could handle just about everything that I can see needing a handgun for.

 

[tipoc]

Interesting. This poll includes the option of choosing revolvers yet it is placed in the auto loaders section rather than the General Handguns section. Seems to me this is an oversight that will and has scewed the results.

tipoc

 

[mcdonl]

I went Ruger, for the GP100....

I understand that 1911's have been around forever but I guess in the world where there is only one gun, per person for ever I would want the one with the least maintenance and most likely to go bang every time.

 

[BHP FAN]

The Mcdon'l makes sense.

 

[Diocoles]

Beretta has been building weapons longer and better than any other manufacturer in the world. Literally by CENTURIES.

 

[CZ223]

Because you stated spefically for

Self defence and not as as an all around gun for other chores, I choose the Glock 23 in 40 S&W. If it were an all around gun I would likely choose a 686 with 4" to 6" barrel. The only accessories I need for the Glock are a good holster, a bunch of mags and night sites. Oh wait, I aldready have all that stuff, I'm good. I also have the 686 and a few 1911's in case I mad ethe wrong choiuces to begin with.

 

[CZ223]

Oh by the way

Someone mentioned the 1911 for the sake of simplicity. While I agree that the 1911 is a relatively simple machine, the Glock is just as simple if not more so. With a hanful of parts that likey would cost less than a good meal out, you would be ready to go for a loooong time.

 

[Pappy109]

Gaston Glock totally revolutionized the handgun world with ingenious design by meeting this criteria:

1. The design has to be self-loading.
2. The pistol must fire the NATO-standard 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge.
3. The magazines would not require any means of assistance for loading.
4. The magazines must have a minimum capacity of 8 rounds.
5. All actions necessary to prepare the pistol for firing and any actions required after firing must be done single-handed, either right- or left-handed.
6. The pistol must be absolutely secure against accidental discharge from shock, stroke and drops from a height of 2m onto a steel plate.
7. Disassembly of the main parts for maintenance and reassembling must be possible without the use of any tools.
8. Maintenance and cleaning of the pistol must be accomplished without the use of tools.
9. The pistol's construction may not exceed 58 individual parts (equivalent of a P38).
10. Gauges, measuring and precise testing devices must not be necessary for the long-term maintenance of the pistol.
11. The manufacturer is required to provide the Ministry of Defence with a complete set of engineering drawings and exploded views. These must be supplied with all the relevant details for the production of the pistol.
12. All components must be fully interchangeable between pistols.
13. No more than 20 malfunctions are permitted during the first 10,000 rounds fired, not even minor jams that can be cleared without the use of any tools.
14. After firing 15,000 rounds of standard ammunition, the pistol will be inspected for wear. The pistol will then be used to fire an overpressure test cartridge generating 5,000 bar (considerably higher than normal operating pressures). The critical components must continue to function properly and be up to specifications, otherwise the pistol will be disqualified.
15. When handled properly, under no circumstances may the user be endangered by case ejection.
16. The muzzle energy must be at least 441.5 J when firing a 9mm S-round/P-08 Hirtenberger AG.
17. Pistols scoring less than 70% of the total available points will not be considered for military use.

The best I can tell no one has come close yet. There are many polymer imitators and haters but it is what it is...he built the better mouse trap like it or not.

 

[BushyGuy]

my first choice would be a Sig Sauer but i cant afford one so my second choice that i can afford right now is Ruger,

i prefer Sig if money was no issue and i could afford one- i would like the Sig Sauer Dark Elite in 9mm.

 

[Gryffydd]

Gaston Glock totally revolutionized the handgun world with ingenious design by meeting this criteria:

Yes, the criteria from the Austrian military was met by....Glock! What do you know?

The best I can tell no one has come close yet.

I would imagine that there's a list somewhere of pistols that applied and did not make it then? In exactly which of those categories is Glock singularly qualified?

 

[Marshall]

I chose "Browning" for the Hi Power.

But I almost chose "Colt" for a 1911. (I didn't even notice the "any 1911" option. )

I bet a decent amount of people clicked on the "Brand" of 1911 they chose, like I almost did.

 

[Pappy109]

All of them.....they got the contract and many more all over the world as well. Here is a list of their users:

* slide).

4. Users

* Australia: Royal Australian Air Force (Glock 19), Australian Customs (Glock 17), and all Australian police services (Glock 17, 19, 22, 23, 26, 27) except the South Australia Police and Victoria Police. A Glock 17 outfitted with a thumb safety was designed specifically for the Tasmania Police. [43]
* Austria: Austrian Armed Forces (Glock 17 designated Pistole 80). [44] [45]
* Belgium: Belgian police (Glock 17), [45] Belgian State Security Service. [46]
* Canada: Numerous local law enforcement agencies to include: Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Saskatoon, South Coast British Columbia Transportation Authority Police Service, Toronto. [45]
* Ecuador: National Police, various special police units such as the GOE and GIR. [45]
* Fiji: Tactical Response Unit. [47]
* Finland: The primary service firearm of the police. [48] Also in use by the Defence Forces, Department of Corrections (Vankeinhoitolaitos) and Border Guard. [49]
* France: French Army—certain naval and parachute units (Glock 17). [50]
* Georgia: Special forces. [45]
* Germany: GSG 9 of the German Federal Police, [45] Spezialeinsatzkommandos (special response teams) of several state police departments.
* Hong Kong: Special Duties Unit, Hong Kong Police Force. [45]
* Iceland: Icelandic National Police, Víkingasveitin, ICRU. [51] [52] [53]
* India: National Security Guards (Glock 17). [45]
* Indonesia: Indonesian Army Kopassus, Indonesian National Police, Detachment 88.[citation needed]
* Iraq: Iraqi security forces (largest user, purchased 125,163 Glock 19s). [54]
* Italy: Italian special forces—GIS, NOCS, "Col Moschin" Regiment, COMSUBIN, Intelligence and State Security.[citation needed]
* Jordan: Presidential Guard. [45]
* Latvia: Latvian Military (Glock 17), police. [55]
* Lebanon: Used by various police and army units.
* Lithuania: Lithuanian Armed Forces (Glock 17). [56]
* Luxembourg: Glock 17 and 26 variants used by the Unité Spéciale de la Police of the Grand Ducal Police. [57] [58]
* Macedonia: Special police forces, traffic police[citation needed]
* Malaysia: Various forces of Malaysian Armed Forces and Royal Malaysian Police units. [59]
* Mexico: Secretaria de Marina. [45]
* Montenegro: Military of Montenegro [60]
* Netherlands: Military of the Netherlands (Glock 17), [61] Dutch police (Glock 17, about 250 pistols in use as a stopgap measure). [62] [63] [64]
* New Zealand: New Zealand Police (Glock 17). [65]
* Norway: Royal Norwegian Army (Glock 17 designated P-80). [45]
* Philippines: Philippine National Police, National Bureau of Investigation (NBI), National Intelligence Coordinating Agency (NICA), Philippine Drug Enforcement Agency (PDEA). [45]
* Poland: Polish police, [66] Polish Military Police (Glock 17).
* Portugal: Used in the police HK PSP, GNR (Glock 19) , In the Portuguese armed forces (Glock 17)... Glock 18c is also used in the DAE.[citation needed]
* Romania: Issued to deployed and several special operations units.[citation needed]
* Spain: Guardia Civil's UEI (Glock 17). [67]
* Sweden: Swedish Armed Forces (Glock 17 designated Pistol 88 and Glock 19 as Pistol 88B, [68] [69] ) Swedish Customs Service, Swedish Coast Guard.
* Switzerland : Police (Gendarmerie) Cantonal of Geneva are equipped with the Glock 19 [70] The Glarus Cantonal Police also use the Glock 19.
* Taiwan: Garrison Command. National Intelligence Coordinating Agency.[citation needed]
* Thailand: Policeman in 3 south province by G2G buying condition. (Glock 19, 2,238 pcs.) and some policeman, soldier and citizen nationwide. (some models) [45]
* United Kingdom: Greater Manchester Police, Tactical Firearms Unit Specialist Firearms Command of the London Metropolitan Police Service, [71] Police Service of Northern Ireland and certain Scottish Police Specialist Firearms Units (Glock 17). [72]
* United States: FBI, Department of Treasury IRS Criminal Investigation Division, [73] DEA, [74] EPA Criminal Investigation Division, New York City Police Department, Los Angeles Police Department, Philadelphia Police Department, thousands of other agencies at the national, state, and local levels.
* Venezuela


Can you tell me of any handgun manufacturer with this kind of a world wide market share?